"Lisbon is good for gays"

lgbt@labour.ie

Members of Labour LGBT will tomorrow morning launch their campaign to urge members of the LGBT communities in Ireland to vote yes to the Lisbon Treaty on October 2nd

Labour LGBT will launch their campaign in favour of the Lisbon Treaty by unveiling their campaign materials, on Wednesday 16th September at 11am. The leaflet will also be available on the Labour Party website

The launch will take place at the Oscar Wilde statue at Merrion Square, and the issues raised will include freedom of assembly and gender equality.

WHEN: WEDNESDAY, 16TH SEPTEMBER 2009, at 11AM

WHERE: OSCAR WILDE STATUE (MERRION SQUARE)

See facebook event

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/event.php?eid=133914997567&ref=nf

For more details contact lgbt@labour.ie

For any questions on the Lisbon Treaty contact enquiries@votelabour.ie

L1011

What, exactly, in the treaty is "good for gays"? Details please - your post is entirely lacking in them.

Iwasfrozen

MYOB wrote: »

What, exactly, in the treaty is "good for gays"? Details please - your post is entirely lacking in them.

Not really anything but this group is connected to Labour and Labour want a yes vote.

AARRRGH

MYOB wrote: »

What, exactly, in the treaty is "good for gays"? Details please - your post is entirely lacking in them.

Yeah, it sounds like every other stupid poster out there:

Lisbon is good for jobs
Lisbon is good for the recession
Etc.

Unless you explain how, no one is going to take notice.

mikemac

First time I ever posted in this forum I reckon

More details needed.
How does the Lisbon Treaty help you? Sure it goes without saying that you read all of it.....
Or are you slavishly following the party line? Labour party HQ are voting yes so I must follow?

evercloserunion

Well Lisbon incorporates the Charter of Fundamental Rights which guarantees the rights of homosexuals. The COFR is very similar to the ECHR which Norris used to challenge Irish anti-homosexuality laws.

L1011

evercloserunion wrote: »

Well Lisbon incorporates the Charter of Fundamental Rights which guarantees the rights of homosexuals. The COFR is very similar to the ECHR which Norris used to challenge Irish anti-homosexuality laws.

It guarantees rights we already have, without being as far reaching as what our own government has given.

Stark

Afaik, gay rights are already covered by the Treaty of Amsterdam which requires all member states to repeal anti-homosexual laws and enact anti-discrimitory leglislation. I don't think Lisbon changes anything in this regard.

From what I can see, the only additional right that's guaranteed is the right of transsexuals to marry a person of opposite gender to their chosen gender. Though how you define chosen gender is debateable. In the UK, this is covered by the Gender Recognition Act. I don't think any such act exists in Ireland.

mobius42

lgbt@labour.ie wrote: »

Members of Labour LGBT will tomorrow morning launch their campaign to urge members of the LGBT communities in Ireland to vote yes to the Lisbon Treaty on October 2nd

Labour LGBT will launch their campaign in favour of the Lisbon Treaty by unveiling their campaign materials, on Wednesday 16th September at 11am. The leaflet will also be available on the Labour Party website

MYOB wrote: »

What, exactly, in the treaty is "good for gays"? Details please - your post is entirely lacking in them.

It seems that they're going to be publishing the details tomorrow. I'll be interested to see what points they come up with; I thought that Lisbon didn't really cover anything affecting gay rights. Still, it's nice to see an Irish political party actually paying attention to gay people for once.:rolleyes:

Stark

I would hope it's not a cynical vote getting exercise. I will be voting Yes anyway but I would not like to do so on the basis of empty promises. I just hope they're as eager to pay attention to the gays if they get into power and it comes to new civil marriage legislation.

L1011

Seeing as they actually went to the bother of writing and putting forward a civil marriage bill while in opposition, I'd suspect its high enough on their priorities. Whether they can get it in to the programme for government in whatever coalition they end up in next time out remains to be seen though.

evercloserunion

Stark wrote: »

I would hope it's not a cynical vote getting exercise. I will be voting Yes anyway but I would not like to do so on the basis of empty promises. I just hope they're as eager to pay attention to the gays if they get into power and it comes to new civil marriage legislation.

I don't know what arguments Labour LGBT will use to persuade homosexuals that the Lisbon Treaty is good for them but you should not be so quick to dismiss the COFR as an empty promise. We have, in our own constitution, a fundamental rights section which is there to protect us. Chances are you will never need to rely on this section, and many people can get through life just fine without ever having to consider it. That does not mean that it is an empty promise, or that it is not good for the Irish people. The fact is that the Lisbon Treaty elevates to supreme status a system of rights that is progressive and gay-friendly and that can only be a good thing.

Stark

What does the COFR provide that the Treaty of Amsterdam didn't?

L1011

evercloserunion wrote: »

I don't know what arguments Labour LGBT will use to persuade homosexuals that the Lisbon Treaty is good for them but you should not be so quick to dismiss the COFR as an empty promise. We have, in our own constitution, a fundamental rights section which is there to protect us. Chances are you will never need to rely on this section, and many people can get through life just fine without ever having to consider it. That does not mean that it is an empty promise, or that it is not good for the Irish people. The fact is that the Lisbon Treaty elevates to supreme status a system of rights that is progressive and gay-friendly and that can only be a good thing.

You're aware that the enforceability of the COFR is optional and not a requirement of ratification, right? A number of states have opted out already. Under Ahern, we investigated the possibility of doing so, if you believe an EU website: http://www.eurofound.europa.eu/eiro/2007/07/articles/uk0707049i.htm

evercloserunion

MYOB wrote: »

You're aware that the enforceability of the COFR is optional and not a requirement of ratification, right? A number of states have opted out already. Under Ahern, we investigated the possibility of doing so, if you believe an EU website: http://www.eurofound.europa.eu/eiro/2007/07/articles/uk0707049i.htm

Enforceability of the COFR is not "optional". The COFR post-Lisbon will have the same legal status of the treaties, so if its enforceability is optional then so is the enforceability of the Treaties which would be absurd.

Once Lisbon is ratified, the COFR gains legal force. A number of states, as you say, have secured opt-outs. Ireland hasn't. Investigating the possibility doesn't mean squat in legal terms.

Stark

evercloserunion wrote: »

Once Lisbon is ratified, the COFR gains legal force. A number of states, as you say, have secured opt-outs. Ireland hasn't. Investigating the possibility doesn't mean squat in legal terms.

What good is that to states other than Ireland then? Ireland already has implemented everything required by the COFR when it comes to gay rights. And you haven't answered what's new that's not provided for in the Amsterdam Treaty. I'm voting Yes for other reasons btw, but I want to be clear on what the LGBT benefits you're claiming.

L1011

evercloserunion wrote: »

Enforceability of the COFR is not "optional". The COFR post-Lisbon will have the same legal status of the treaties, so if its enforceability is optional then so is the enforceability of the Treaties which would be absurd.

Once Lisbon is ratified, the COFR gains legal force. A number of states, as you say, have secured opt-outs. Ireland hasn't. Investigating the possibility doesn't mean squat in legal terms.

Enforceability of it is certainly optional - countries have the ability to opt out, the very definition of optional. You are not required to have opted in (well, not opted out) to ratify the treaty - hence it is optional for the treaty.

I suspect we didn't bother opting out as it provides absolutely nothing not already provided in our legislative system as it stands.

evercloserunion

Stark wrote: »

What good is that to states other than Ireland then? Ireland already has implemented everything required by the COFR when it comes to gay rights. And you haven't answered what's new that's not provided for in the Amsterdam Treaty. I'm voting Yes for other reasons btw, but I want to be clear on what the LGBT benefits you're claiming.

I'm not claiming anything; I am mooting the COFR as the probably reason why Labour think Lisbon is good for gays.

As for your question about what the COFR gives us in the area of gay rights that Amsterdam does not, I will answer honestly; I don't know. I am not familiar with the Amsterdam gay provisions. But the COFR is a comprehensive charter of human rights justiciable by the ECJ and binding on EU law. You are missing the point by stating that Ireland has already implemented the requirements under the COFR. The implementation of the COFR under Lisbon concerns EU law rather than Irish law, and acts as a protection against future EU laws or actions which may impact negatively on the rights of its citizens, perhaps by displacing national law.

evercloserunion

MYOB wrote: »

Enforceability of it is certainly optional - countries have the ability to opt out, the very definition of optional. You are not required to have opted in (well, not opted out) to ratify the treaty - hence it is optional for the treaty.

I suspect we didn't bother opting out as it provides absolutely nothing not already provided in our legislative system as it stands.

What I mean is that once Lisbon is ratified, signatory states are not at liberty to decide in any given case whether the COFR is enforceable. Ireland have not negotiated an opt-out, so once Lisbon is ratified enforceability of the COFR will not be optional.

L1011

evercloserunion wrote: »

What I mean is that once Lisbon is ratified, signatory states are not at liberty to decide in any given case whether the COFR is enforceable. Ireland have not negotiated an opt-out, so once Lisbon is ratified enforceability of the COFR will not be optional.

Indeed, but irrelevant, as COFR doesn't affect us at all as we already have every single protection... I don't get your point at all, really.

Marshy

I guess one could argue that whats good for the country at large, ie. Lisbon, is good for it's people and so by extension gay people. But I'd assume thats not what they mean.

mobius42

Labour have posted their reasons for why the Lisbon Treaty supports gay rights:

- The Charter of Fundamental Rights will forbid discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation throughout the EU. (Article 21.1)
- Article 23 of the Charter will forbid discrimination based on gender across the member states.
- The Charter guarantees, in Article 12, the right to assemble which will protect Gay Pride marches and organisations across Europe.
- The European Union will accede to the European convention of Human Rights further strengthening the protections for citizens and particularly LGBT citizens of the Union.
- In future the European Commission will be legally required as part of the Social Mainstreaming Clause to aim to combat discrimination, including on the grounds of sexual orientation, in all its policies.
- The participatory democracy clauses will legally require the Commission to consult with LGBT groups before coming forward with any proposals of interest or concern to them.

You can read the rest here.

Euro_Kraut

mobius42 wrote: »

Labour have posted their reasons for why the Lisbon Treaty supports gay rights:



You can read the rest here.

Looking at that I guess the argument is that is a positive for LGBT people across Europe (not simply for Irish LGBT people).

The issues surrounding discrimination and marches are far more pertinent in Eastern and Central European States that they are here.

shay_562

The Charter of Fundamental Rights will forbid discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation throughout the EU. (Article 21.1)

Would be interested to know how this affects the ability of Catholic primary schools to fire LGBT teachers in the interests of protecting their Catholic ethos. Anyone got any ideas?

mobius42

shay_562 wrote: »

Would be interested to know how this affects the ability of Catholic primary schools to fire LGBT teachers in the interests of protecting their Catholic ethos. Anyone got any ideas?

Has an Irish School ever fired anyone for being gay? It seems ridiculous that they would be allowed to do that.

L1011

mobius42 wrote: »

Has an Irish School ever fired anyone for being gay? It seems ridiculous that they would be allowed to do that.

Whether they have or haven't, they are specifically allowed to by an exclusion in the employment equality act.

The_Minister

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/expert/infopress_page/019-60714-257-09-38-902-20090915IPR60711-14-09-2009-2009-false/default_en.htm

MEPs criticising the new Lithuanian legislation.

shoegirl

mobius42 wrote: »

Has an Irish School ever fired anyone for being gay? It seems ridiculous that they would be allowed to do that.

The legislation is more insidious than it seems. The reason it is there is to act as a deterent for gays and other social undesireables from working as teachers per se. In practice no school would dare risk the negative fallout that would result from canning a teacher on the grounds of lifestyle - as they discovered through negative coverage from the Eileen Flynn case in the 1980s, as it could result in a change to legislation.

What gay teacher groups (yes, they do exist) are trying to do, is come out, be open, and challenge this from the inside out.

Tricity Bendix

They got a write up in the Irish Times today, which is pretty good going. Although, Liberal Society also got a piece, so I think the Times are just willing to publish anyone with a pro-Treaty viewpoint.

Anyway, Coir seem to think that the European Court of Justice could force Ireland to accept same-sex marriages.

The_Minister

Tricity Bendix wrote: »

They got a write up in the Irish Times today, which is pretty good going. Although, Liberal Society also got a piece, so I think the Times are just willing to publish anyone with a pro-Treaty viewpoint.

/Points at signature
Hey!

Tricity Bendix wrote: »

Anyway, Coir seem to think that the European Court of Justice could force Ireland to accept same-sex marriages.

Nope. As said above, it may help overturn the Lithuanian legislation (which is crazy) and help in other states, but even as a Yes campaigner I can't say it will get you gay marriage or anything. It just won't.

evercloserunion

MYOB wrote: »

Indeed, but irrelevant, as COFR doesn't affect us at all as we already have every single protection... I don't get your point at all, really.

Well as I said I didn't really have a point at the time, but it seems Labour LGBT have since made their point quite clear: there are gays outside Ireland.