How do we force a national election? And should we?

SMCG

All evening I've been reading some excellent commentary and opinions on Irish politics on boards.ie. However nothing has given me any hope about the dire circumstances our country is in.
I'm keen to be involved in some sort of protest - but to be honest, where do we begin? It's stupid (isn't it?) protesting for the sake of it, so what are we protesting against? Can we as citizens force, or create a momentum towards, a vote of no confidence in the government? And to be honest, do we want to? Will the next lot not be as bad as this lot? Should we try anyway?
I'm seeking a light at the end of the tunnel.
Any solutions? Or ideas? How can we get ourselves out of this mess?

CUCINA

I feel your pain! I would really love to see the back of these Fianna Fail wasters (and they are literally "wasters", with The Bull o'Donoghue deservedly getting it in the neck at the moment.)
Of course, the problem is that FF have been in power for too long. They have become arrogant and have completely lost the run of themselves.
The alternatives don't look great...I would be a little happier if Enda Kenny was replaced as leader of Fine Gael (but not by Bruton, maybe a dark horse would be Leo Varadker, but his lack of experience counts against him).
In any case, with a bit of luck, we'll have a general election early in the new year. There have been times recently when I got so angry with what has been going on that I began to visualise myself as a sole protester, with a placard, marching back and forth outside the gates of Leinster House!
A real blood-boiler recently was when I heard rumours in the "meeja" that Bertie fancied putting himself forward as Mayor of Dublin (don't even whisper anything about the Aras!). If he ended up there, then I would really be tempted to to picket the Mansion House!
I can think of a more appropriate kind of accommodation for Bertie, a place a lot less luxurious, where someone in a uniform (but not a butler!) would be serving him porridge for breakfast, dinner and tea.

ghost_ie

SMCG wrote: »

All evening I've been reading some excellent commentary and opinions on Irish politics on boards.ie. However nothing has given me any hope about the dire circumstances our country is in.
I'm keen to be involved in some sort of protest - but to be honest, where do we begin? It's stupid (isn't it?) protesting for the sake of it, so what are we protesting against? Can we as citizens force, or create a momentum towards, a vote of no confidence in the government? And to be honest, do we want to? Will the next lot not be as bad as this lot? Should we try anyway?
I'm seeking a light at the end of the tunnel.
Any solutions? Or ideas? How can we get ourselves out of this mess?

I think this is partly why we feel so angry - there's so many things that are going wrong in this country and we're powerless. The government continues to do as it likes, claiming huge salaries and unvouched expenses while the rest of us suffer. Maybe that could be a rallying point, with placards demanding a 50% cut in politicians' wages and all expense claims to be accompanied by receipts.

is_that_so

We can't unless the Govt loses a vote of confidence, can't get their budget through or call an election themselves.

Amhran Nua

They can lose NAMA, lose Lisbon, and parade around the Oireachtas buildings in negligees and there is no way for the people of Ireland to force them out. Some of us have started a new political party to provide some measure of response for when the next GE is called, but getting things rolling is tricky.

meglome

Amhran Nua wrote: »

They can lose NAMA, lose Lisbon, and parade around the Oireachtas buildings in negligees and there is no way for the people of Ireland to force them out. Some of us have started a new political party to provide some measure of response for when the next GE is called, but getting things rolling is tricky.

True we'll have to bide our time and give them what they deserve when the time comes.

kmick

Patience - their time will come. Unfortunately it will be after a Lisbon yes vote and the economy will proabbly be in some sort of painfully slow recovery so its likely they will scrape in again. As my boss says FF's greatest weapon is Enda Kenny.

Amhran Nua

That does underline the problem though doesn't it, all they need is to let the opposition lose, and they are back in. One could be forgiven for thinking that FG almost likes the opposition benches.

Anyway if anyone wants to get involved in a new party, what we're doing is here.

LostinBlanch

You're pointing out a huge hole in the "democratic process" at the moment. This vaccuum where people are rightly angry and know bloody well that they have no control over events is dangerous for democracy and society as a whole.

If this was any functioning democracy there would be huge demonstrations in the streets letting the f*ckers in govt know exactly what we think of their behaviour. But this is Ireland so nothing will happen. Business as usual lads.

Drumpot

LostinBlanch wrote: »

You're pointing out a huge hole in the "democratic process" at the moment. This vaccuum where people are rightly angry and know bloody well that they have no control over events is dangerous for democracy and society as a whole.

If this was any functioning democracy there would be huge demonstrations in the streets letting the f*ckers in govt know exactly what we think of their behaviour. But this is Ireland so nothing will happen. Business as usual lads.

Dont know whats worse . .

Being under a dictator and not feeling like you have any control over your life .

Or

Living in a "democratic society" that constantly votes in morally corrupt people based on their "celebrity status" as opposed to their credentials and not feeling like you have control over your life.

Lets be honest. . I dont necessarily think that all people in politics are corrupt. How are they any differant from people who work in public or private companies that take advantage of the "loopholes" that over compensate them? They feel they are entitled to certain remunerations because thats the environment that we (the people) allowed to grow into the best we hear about today. .

I hate to say it, but I have less confidence in the electorate in this country then I do with the government we currently have . Voting out FF is not the answer. Voting in credible, ethically/morally sound people who are competent and focused on whats good for the overall success of the country.

We vote out FF, and we will vote in some other fella's who will continue to take advantage of the "perks" of the job . .

If we all took to the street, there would be an election . . Make no bone about it. We do have control of our country but as individuals we feel "stuck in a rut" thanks to the many who vote for celebritys and cute Hooers . . Shame on them . .

Liam Byrne

At least if we had one dictator, we'd only be paying one lot of ridiculous wages and expenses.....

.....and if he were an FF-style dictator, it'd only require one bullet!

population

We need the Greens to pull out over NAMA. I dont see it happening and when the next election comes they'll cease to exist for their collusion in this heist.

The only other thing that could force an election is Lisbon 2 getting a NO vote. Could be a dangerous game to play but I know which way I am voting

Drumpot

population wrote: »

We need the Greens to pull out over NAMA. I dont see it happening and when the next election comes they'll cease to exist for their collusion in this heist.

The only other thing that could force an election is Lisbon 2 getting a NO vote. Could be a dangerous game to play but I know which way I am voting

Voting No on Lisbon because you dont like the government is wrong. If you dont agree with Lisbon, fair enough, but voting No in spite of them is, to put it mildly, narrow minded.

Cork Boy

or we could vote yes to lisbon to get 'dail eireann' to lose some bit of power over us...

Brussells or Leinster House? Give me brussels any day

SkepticOne

Drumpot wrote: »

Voting No on Lisbon because you dont like the government is wrong.

Depends on your priorities surely?

Phototoxin

They can lose NAMA, lose Lisbon, and parade around the Oireachtas buildings in negligees and there is no way for the people of Ireland to force them out. Some of us have started a new political party to provide some measure of response for when the next GE is called, but getting things rolling is tricky.

armoured cars and tanks and guns?

Drumpot

SkepticOne wrote: »

Depends on your priorities surely?

Suppose it depends on your point of view . .

I will vote on something based on its merits.

I believe that voting no on lisbon to give the fingers to the government or look for an election is cutting your nose off despite your face. I dont pretend to understand the complexities of the Lisbon Treaty, but from what I do understand, most parties (except the ones I would never dream of following) believe that when all is said and done, it is better that we vote yes. I do believe that while parties can have their agenda's, in this case the big ones simply can't afford to play political games when the country is in such a shambles..

And anyways, as somebody else said, surely giving Europe more power over the governing of our country isnt necessarily a bad thing considering how bad the Irish People are at picking governments . .

Fluffybums

Protesting to try and force a general election is all well and good, but I hear so often that "this lot may be bad but what is the alternative, they are worse". And there seems to be a tendency to vote for the chap whose Daddy/uncle/brother was a good TD/councillor (how many of the current visitors to the tough are related to the founding fathers of the republic) or so and so was a great GAA man. Just because a relative was a great man/woman does not make junior any better than a short plank (which at least can be turned into a shelf). As for FF/FG divide the civil war was 80 years ago can we please have a divide based on political principal.

Don't know who said it but 'the people get the government they deserve'.

If we continue to vote based on an 80 year old civil war and heredity then nothing will change.

population

Drumpot wrote: »

Voting No on Lisbon because you dont like the government is wrong. If you dont agree with Lisbon, fair enough, but voting No in spite of them is, to put it mildly, narrow minded.

Well I am voting NO on Lisbon for a multitude of reasons, not least the fact that my original vote was not respected which I find offensive. However back on to what I was saying if my vote helps bring down this govt and it is the only way in which I can make that happen, then wild horses wouldnt make me vote YES.

Also I disagree that voting NO on Lisbon because you dont like the Govt is wrong. I do not trust them to represent me in Europe, I would rather this govt fell and a competent govt led us towards an actual YES on a fair European treaty and not one obtained under duress

Drumpot

population wrote: »

Well I am voting NO on Lisbon for a multitude of reasons, not least the fact that my original vote was not respected which I find offensive. However back on to what I was saying if my vote helps bring down this govt and it is the only way in which I can make that happen, then wild horses wouldnt make me vote YES.

Also I disagree that voting NO on Lisbon because you dont like the Govt is wrong. I do not trust them to represent me in Europe, I would rather this govt fell and a competent govt led us towards an actual YES on Lisbon and not one obtained under duress

If it is true (I dont necessarily know if it is) that Ireland will be isolated by voting no and it will have serious financial ramifications for our economy, then by voting no to upset FF, only serves to make one wrong (by voting in FF in the first place) even worse, by voting for another wrong (voting no in spite of them) to prove a point. . .

My opinion is that its this very way of voting that has this country in the state its in. . .

People don't vote based on their knowledge of something or by weighing up all the pro's and Con's of something, more on their raw emotions and in spite of things. . .

irish_bob

CUCINA wrote: »

I feel your pain! I would really love to see the back of these Fianna Fail wasters (and they are literally "wasters", with The Bull o'Donoghue deservedly getting it in the neck at the moment.)
Of course, the problem is that FF have been in power for too long. They have become arrogant and have completely lost the run of themselves.
The alternatives don't look great...I would be a little happier if Enda Kenny was replaced as leader of Fine Gael (but not by Bruton, maybe a dark horse would be Leo Varadker, but his lack of experience counts against him).
In any case, with a bit of luck, we'll have a general election early in the new year. There have been times recently when I got so angry with what has been going on that I began to visualise myself as a sole protester, with a placard, marching back and forth outside the gates of Leinster House!
A real blood-boiler recently was when I heard rumours in the "meeja" that Bertie fancied putting himself forward as Mayor of Dublin (don't even whisper anything about the Aras!). If he ended up there, then I would really be tempted to to picket the Mansion House!
I can think of a more appropriate kind of accommodation for Bertie, a place a lot less luxurious, where someone in a uniform (but not a butler!) would be serving him porridge for breakfast, dinner and tea.

agree about leo varadakar although i dont think he would be palatable to the majority as he comes across as snooty , its a pity mariead mcguinness chose to run in the wrong constituency in 2007 , she would have gotten elected had she ran in the constituency in which she lives instead of running where she was born , she is extremley popular and being a woman , has an advantage with half the population , of course she being an MEP probabley rules her out as a contender

population

Drumpot wrote: »

If it is true (I dont necessarily know if it is) that Ireland will be isolated by voting no and it will have serious financial ramifications for our economy, then by voting no to upset FF, only serves to make one wrong (by voting in FF in the first place) even worse, by voting for another wrong (voting no in spite of them) to prove a point. . .

My opinion is that its this very way of voting that has this country in the state its in. . .

People don't vote based on their knowledge of something or by weighing up all the pro's and Con's of something, more on their raw emotions and in spite of things. . .

I have never voted FF in my life so please do not try put my fingerprints on that trainwreck.

Also I have done a fair bit of reading on Lisbon so I have weighed up where I stand on it. The NO camp is riddled with Shinners and Looneys whom I have nothing in common with and do not wish to be seen voting in alliance with but I feel I must despite some of the stick I am taking.

So to suggest that I am just voting one way because I am being emotional and ignorant of the issues is wrong. As I have outlined previously I feel offended that my vote was not respected and I do not trust FF period. If a party or a politician I respect negotiates a better European treaty I will vote for it.

If my vote helps bring down the Govt then bonus a plenty. I merely answered a question earlier on about what could actually bring them down. Also I did in fact say that voting NO with only bringing FF down in mind was a dangerous game.

irish_bob

Drumpot wrote: »

Voting No on Lisbon because you dont like the government is wrong. If you dont agree with Lisbon, fair enough, but voting No in spite of them is, to put it mildly, narrow minded.

narrow minded and self defeating

Mr. Presentable

population wrote: »

Well I am voting NO on Lisbon for a multitude of reasons, not least the fact that my original vote was not respected which I find offensive. However back on to what I was saying if my vote helps bring down this govt and it is the only way in which I can make that happen, then wild horses wouldnt make me vote YES.

Also I disagree that voting NO on Lisbon because you dont like the Govt is wrong. I do not trust them to represent me in Europe, I would rather this govt fell and a competent govt led us towards an actual YES on a fair European treaty and not one obtained under duress

Ah, so voting a second time is wrong, but a third would be OK?

And we wonder why the NO side has no credibility........................

SkepticOne

Drumpot wrote: »

then by voting no to upset FF, only serves to make one wrong (by voting in FF in the first place) even worse, by voting for another wrong (voting no in spite of them) to prove a point. . .

You might have the view - and I'm not saying it is correct or that you should vote on that basis - but you might have the view that a No result would more than merely upset FF.

irish_bob

population wrote: »

Well I am voting NO on Lisbon for a multitude of reasons, not least the fact that my original vote was not respected which I find offensive. However back on to what I was saying if my vote helps bring down this govt and it is the only way in which I can make that happen, then wild horses wouldnt make me vote YES.

Also I disagree that voting NO on Lisbon because you dont like the Govt is wrong. I do not trust them to represent me in Europe, I would rather this govt fell and a competent govt led us towards an actual YES on a fair European treaty and not one obtained under duress

we voted twice in referendums seeking to legalise divorce , nothing unsual about voting twice

population

nipplenuts wrote: »

Ah, so voting a second time is wrong, but a third would be OK?

And we wonder why the NO side has no credibility........................

Read my post please.

If a different and fairer treaty is put to me I will vote for it. I never said I would vote for Lisbon

population

irish_bob wrote: »

we voted twice in referendums seeking to legalise divorce , nothing unsual about voting twice

On the EXACT same thing?????

radioactiveman

I think we should force a national election simply on account of the way NAMA has been formulated.
There hasn't been enough debate at all on:
1. Whether we should have NAMA at all, and whether other better, banks would step in to fill the gap in the market (which they would).
2. Not enough debate on the discount for the loans. The price paid for the loans should not be one penny above the market rate. I seriously doubt the market rate at the moment is 30% below the original price. If I could get -30% on my house bought during the boom I'd be delighted. Why should this be different for developers? It's blatant cronyism.

Why should ordinary people be forced to pay for it out of the pension fund for fecks sake?

As a citizen I have a real problem accepting this and I would be prepared to protest against it and petition against it to prove my point as I think this is the only way of forcing further debate and a change of government.

Drumpot

SkepticOne wrote: »

You might have the view - and I'm not saying it is correct or that you should vote on that basis - but you might have the view that a No result would more than merely upset FF.

To vote no to get at FF is ridiculous . . Simply ridiculous . .

If a person voted yes the first time and are voting no simply because they have to vote again, its childish and unhelpful. If they are voting no, it should be because they dont agree with the cotents of the referendum. .

As I said, this is EXACTLY why we are in the position we are in today. Saying "I didnt vote for FF" means nothing, because the whole political system in this country is fked up. There is a culture (not just in FF) in our politics that just stinks and its people voting based on these kind of attitudes that has caused it. .

Did any of you non FF's take to the streets when the times were great and demand that they be striped from power? How proactive where you in trying to drum up support against them? The truth is that most people just went along with things while the times were good enough. I voted FG and Independent in the last two elections but Im not hiding behind the weak "i didnt vote for FF" arguement, as its only trying to put the blame on everybody else (another fatal flaw of the mindset of the people of this country, blame somebody else).

If anything, knowing the importance of a yes (since one person mentioned they voted yes the first time) and voting no in spite of the government is worse then not knowing anything about the treaty and simply voting no. . .

And we laugh at the yanks for voting in Bush twice, perhaps many people voted for bush in spite of the democrats . . Does that make it right ?:rolleyes:

Amhran Nua

Phototoxin wrote: »

armoured cars and tanks and guns?

Hahah, nothing so dramatic, flyers and placards are about the limit of it. We already have all the policies and long term goals for the country in place, so next thing is to get 300 names on a piece of paper to get officially registered, then we can hit the press like a hammer. Feel free to join up!

Drumpot wrote: »

My opinion is that its this very way of voting that has this country in the state its in. . .

As you've pointed out, its by no means unique to Ireland.