Why no cycle lanes along luas tracks?

BostonB

Why did they not build properly seperated cycle lanes along side the luas tracks? Would have given us a great cycle route up and down the quays, avoid the dangerous south quays. Probably lots of other places aswell. Was it deemed too dangerous having cyclist near the luas?

petethedrummer

Because its Ireland.

Single Malt

Bike wheels and LUAS tracks love each other so much one bends the other backwards

BostonB

Single Malt wrote: »

Bike wheels and LUAS tracks love each other so much one bends the other backwards

along not on

Victor

Because there isn't sufficient space at a lot of points.

starbelgrade

petethedrummer wrote: »

Because its Ireland.

Yep - we live in a Mammy state.

In Holland you can cycle on, over & across tram lines.

And if you wear a helmet, the police shoot you for looking stupid.

BostonB

Victor wrote: »

Because there isn't sufficient space at a lot of points.

They found space for two trains side by side.

ednwireland

cos it cost 6 gazillion euros and it would have cost another 6 to put cycle paths next to it

DePurpereWolf

starbelgrade wrote: »

Yep - we live in a Mammy state.

In Holland you can cycle on, over & across tram lines.

And if you wear a helmet, the police shoot you for looking stupid.

There is no such country, it's called the Netherlands.

DePurpereWolf

ednwireland wrote: »

cos it cost 6 gazillion euros and it would have cost another 6 to put cycle paths next to it

I'd say 6 euro wouldn't make much difference on 6 gazillion. I would have paid the 6 euro out of pocket if they had asked.

tomasrojo

The Cycle Review carried out by Transport Initiatives LLP for Dublin City Council covered this topic.

The commitment to public transport provision in Dublin is to be
congratulated but it was disappointing to find that the introduction of the
LUAS has not only resulted in the cycle-unfriendly gyratory systems but
also the sterilisation of routes that would otherwise have given cyclists
advantage through accessibility and permeability in a virtually traffic
free environment. Many cyclists were observed ignoring the
requirement to keep away from these areas, and ensuring compliance s probably impossible, so it is regrettable that cyclists and trams are
not allowed to mix in the same way as in many other cities in Europe.

I can't find it online anymore, but I have the PDF, if anyone finds themselves irresistibly drawn to this subject.

tomasrojo

I think the best solution would be to put a smooth surface between the tracks (that is, the part that is directly under the Luas, which is currently a rather uncomfortably cobbling effect) and allow cyclists to travel along the line itself.

Some signalling would be needed at junctions, obviously, and there would have to be an understanding that when the Luas is coming, you get out of the way.

The usual caveats about crossing the tracks at 90 degrees would apply too, of course.

VERYinterested

It would have been a good idea alright if there was sufficient money and foresight. I seem to remember (back in 2002) looking at the Luas plans for the Green line and there was a provision for a cycle track. I bet pedestrians would also have used them and then give us cyclists evils for using them, like they do on designated cycle paths. (The bit painted pink is ours, you guys use the rest of the ample footpath, please)

km991148

DePurpereWolf wrote: »

There is no such country, it's called the Netherlands.

No one said Holland was a country; Poster could have been talking about the region?

Captain Chaos

tomasrojo wrote: »

I think the best solution would be to put a smooth surface between the tracks (that is, the part that is directly under the Luas, which is currently a rather uncomfortably cobbling effect) and allow cyclists to travel along the line itself.

I have seen this first hand and with your average cyclist in this country and their attention spans and awareness it won't work. I was on a red line luas one day on a rear facing seat. There was a cyclist slip streaming behind the luas for a while, then the luas had to perform an emergency stop as a Dublin Bus just pulled out in front, the luas was doing a fair good speed and stopped almost on the spot, the cyclist was going so fast and close to the tram, he ending up crashing into the back of us. The driver 40 metres away had no way of know what had happened, most commuters didn't see what happened and were all looking at the bus that near cause a major collision.

In my view from what I see of cyclists day in day out in the city centre they should not be allowed anywhere near luas tracks, the amount I have seen fall off their bikes because of the wheels getting jammed in the rail grooves is laughable.

Overall they need to pay far more attention and have a hell of alot more cope on and foresight.

tomasrojo

I used to cycle in Basel along the tram tracks. Same problem with having to cross the tracks at 90 degrees (not just to avoid catching the wheel; they are extremely slippery when it's raining). But it worked fine. And plenty of people did it every day.

Common sense applies, of course. You don't slipstream the tram; you keep an adequate braking distance between you and the tram.

tomasrojo

Also, they already implicitly condone cyclists cycling along the track; section of the Luas track are on the road, where any vehicle can follow it. The tram-exclusive sections are classified as such to keep cars out so that the Luas can run on time, not for safety reasons.

zynaps

The first time I ever encountered LUAS tracks on my bike, before the trams were actually in service, I slipped both wheels into one of the tracks while looking over my left shoulder for a gap to merge into traffic (after coming down the fun little spiral slope from the old college of music on Adelaide Road). I'd incorrectly assumed that it was too small for my wheel to slip in, and before I could do anything the front wheel got bounced out and up about 3 feet in the air, followed by the back wheel. Landed painfully on the narrow end of my saddle, castrati style.
About a year later, my girlfriend got dumped onto the road while cycling on the tracks in the dark :P

Personally I stay away from riding parallel to the things, since it's quite easy for me to drift a little left or right as I'm observing over either shoulder, and slipping into a track is guaranteed pain. Plus I don't live or work anywhere nearby, so...
Certainly wouldn't ride close behind a tram either, jeeez. People do some odd things on bikes.

Jawgap

zynaps wrote: »

The first time I ever encountered LUAS tracks on my bike, before the trams were actually in service, I slipped both wheels into one of the tracks while looking over my left shoulder for a gap to merge into traffic (after coming down the fun little spiral slope from the old college of music on Adelaide Road). I'd incorrectly assumed that it was too small for my wheel to slip in, and before I could do anything the front wheel got bounced out and up about 3 feet in the air, followed by the back wheel. Landed painfully on the narrow end of my saddle, castrati style.
About a year later, my girlfriend got dumped onto the road while cycling on the tracks in the dark :P

Personally I stay away from riding parallel to the things, since it's quite easy for me to drift a little left or right as I'm observing over either shoulder, and slipping into a track is guaranteed pain. Plus I don't live or work anywhere nearby, so...
Certainly wouldn't ride close behind a tram either, jeeez. People do some odd things on bikes.

been there / done that - except I was on my old mountain bike. there were lots of warnings not to cycle close and parallel to the tracks and one day while cycling along I thought "there's no way a mountain bike tyre would fit in there......."

So I tried it and it did - bashed my shoulder, my wheel and my ego pretty severely!!!

zynaps

Jawgap wrote: »

So I tried it and it did - bashed my shoulder, my wheel and my ego pretty severely!!!

Good to know I'm not the only plank out there

tomasrojo

I would say that there's a stretch of Luas track I cycle along frequently. If you keep right in the middle of the tracks (centered where the Luas would be), you are a comfortable distance from tracks with no risk of catching your wheel or slipping on the tracks. When you want to turn off, you just carefully swing across at as close to 90 degrees as you can.

dudara

tomasrojo wrote: »

I think the best solution would be to put a smooth surface between the tracks (that is, the part that is directly under the Luas, which is currently a rather uncomfortably cobbling effect) and allow cyclists to travel along the line itself.

Some signalling would be needed at junctions, obviously, and there would have to be an understanding that when the Luas is coming, you get out of the way.

The usual caveats about crossing the tracks at 90 degrees would apply too, of course.

With all due respect, you do know that this is Ireland? Such a method would rely on general common sense and behaviour of which the vast amount of the Irish population is incapable. It reminds me of when the Luas was introduced and we heard about a large amount of fender-benders as Irish drivers attempted to run the red lights at Luas tracks.

In theory, I do agree with you. The intermingling of cycling and luas tracks makes a great deal of sense.

zynaps

tomasrojo wrote: »

I think the best solution would be to put a smooth surface between the tracks (that is, the part that is directly under the Luas, which is currently a rather uncomfortably cobbling effect) and allow cyclists to travel along the line itself.

What if there was a gentle dip in the centre of this surface? That might help keep the bike from drifting to one side in the dark or while the rider is busy looking ahead (or behind) for an approaching Luas?

tomasrojo

dudara wrote: »

It reminds me of when the Luas was introduced and we heard about a large amount of fender-benders as Irish drivers attempted to run the red lights at Luas tracks.

That was bizarre all right, though not surprising. They don't seem to do it anymore though. Now a Luas junction is a disciplined junction!

dudara wrote: »

In theory, I do agree with you. The intermingling of cycling and luas tracks makes a great deal of sense.

Maybe I'm being a bit optimistic all right.

tomasrojo

zynaps wrote: »

What if there was a gentle dip in the centre of this surface? That might help keep the bike from drifting to one side in the dark or while the rider is busy looking ahead (or behind) for an approaching Luas?

That's an interesting idea. Kind of self-correcting.

alfalad

zynaps wrote: »

What if there was a gentle dip in the centre of this surface? That might help keep the bike from drifting to one side in the dark or while the rider is busy looking ahead (or behind) for an approaching Luas?

We live in Ireland where we get a large amount of rain, this dip would nearly always have lying water in it therefore you would be cycling through a puddle constantly.

That wouldn't be nice!

dudara

tomasrojo wrote: »

That was bizarre all right, though not surprising. They don't seem to do it anymore though. Now a Luas junction is a disciplined junction!

Not any more - a Luas tram has derailed on O'Connell Street after colliding with a bus.

tomasrojo

That looks really bad.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0916/luas.html

zynaps

alfalad wrote: »

We live in Ireland where we get a large amount of rain, this dip would nearly always have lying water in it therefore you would be cycling through a puddle constantly.

That wouldn't be nice!

Oops, yeah, forgot this was Ireland Spose you could set up a drain system but... yeah.

zeramiss

well, it would be too dangerous to put cycle lane just besides luas running.

tomasrojo

What the Transport Initiatives Report suggested was just letting cyclists use the streets the Luas used. Don't think the author of the report specifically had cycle lanes in mind as such. I guess he was projecting a level of common sense that people on this thread (possibly correctly) find lacking in Irish people generally.

petethedrummer

tomasrojo wrote: »

That looks really bad.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0916/luas.html

Jaysus, whats going on at all? I stay at home for 2 days and the whole city seems to be going crazy.

duffarama

better question is why can't we bring bikes onto the luas

NeilMcEoigheann

if the luas can't see a bus.....

BostonB

zeramiss wrote: »

well, it would be too dangerous to put cycle lane just besides luas running.

But it's ok to have pedestrians?
But it's ok to cycle alongside trucks and buses and taxis

I don't get the logic.

Anyway while there may not be room all along the route there must room Along a lot of it

starbelgrade

DePurpereWolf wrote: »

Holland. There is no such country, it's called the Netherlands.

There's no such country as Connaught either, but it still exists.

SerialComplaint

BostonB wrote: »

Why did they not build properly seperated cycle lanes along side the luas tracks? Would have given us a great cycle route up and down the quays, avoid the dangerous south quays. Probably lots of other places aswell. Was it deemed too dangerous having cyclist near the luas?

How would you keep the cyclists seperate from pedestrians at Luas stops?

blorg

SerialComplaint wrote: »

How would you keep the cyclists seperate from pedestrians at Luas stops?

Good point, you might have commuters trying to board cyclists having mistaken them for a Luas. Ahoy!

zynaps

blorg wrote: »

Good point, you might have commuters trying to board cyclists having mistaken them for a Luas. Ahoy!

Now and then when cycling, I used to slow down and stop at bus stops for people standing right at the kerb. Nobody ever got on :pac:

BostonB

SerialComplaint wrote: »

How would you keep the cyclists seperate from pedestrians at Luas stops?

Wheres the challange in that?

kfor

tomasrojo wrote: »

The Cycle Review carried out by Transport Initiatives LLP for Dublin City Council covered this topic.
...
I can't find it online anymore, but I have the PDF, if anyone finds themselves irresistibly drawn to this subject.

I can't find it online either, could I get a copy from you?

kylith

I too have fallen into Luas lines, well, rather I was pushed in by a Merc with no manners. Narrowly avoided the tram too. Best stay away imo.

duffarama wrote: »

better question is why can't we bring bikes onto the luas

That's a good one; I was left stranded in Sandyford with a puncture a few years back. Had to walk to Stillorgan.

blorg wrote: »

Good point, you might have commuters trying to board cyclists having mistaken them for a Luas. Ahoy!

It always gives me a kick to see people try to flag me down at bus stops

doozerie

tomasrojo wrote: »

Also, they already implicitly condone cyclists cycling along the track; section of the Luas track are on the road, where any vehicle can follow it. The tram-exclusive sections are classified as such to keep cars out so that the Luas can run on time, not for safety reasons.

On the topic of the RPA condoning cyclists cycling on the LUAS tracks, I contacted them last year to point out that in their online updates re the ongoing LUAS works in the IFSC they explicitly stated in the section regarding bicycles: "Do not cycle in tram lanes". I asked why they seemed to be applying this to shared areas of road where cars were allowed to drive along LUAS lines and the response that I got was that while yes it was technically okay to cycle along those stretches they had no plans to change their wording.

Basically, they seemed to be taking the approach that if they were to say it was okay for cyclists to use those areas open to other road users, then we'd blindly assume that we could use all stretches of LUAS traffic even those closed off to other traffic. It's a stupid mindset, even if there are people on bikes who demonstrate regularly that they really are as irresponsible and stupid as such a mindset expects them to be.

So while cyclists are certainly entitled to cycle on shared stretches of road/LUAS track just like any other traffic, I think that the RPA grudgingly accept that they can't stop it rather than condone it, as such. Same end result for cyclists of course, but it suggests that planners still see cyclists as an inconvenience rather than valid road users that should be accommodated and, heaven forbid, even encouraged.

100Suns

Has anyone been stopped by the Gardai for cycling on the Luas tracks?

I was cycling up the tracks on Benburb Street one evening when I spotted two Gardai at the junction with Arbour Hill. There were two cyclists on the footpath going in the same direction. The Gardai duly stepped out as I approached, waved me on and stopped the lads on the path.

I use the tracks regularly. The cobbles are clearly there as a deterrent to cyclists which is short sighted IMO. Saying that, I've seen many a hapless cyclist come off on the tracks, often riding the City Bikes.

Another big problem is cyclists sailing through junctions on the tracks oblivious to road traffic having the green light and proceeding to cross the tracks. My office overlooks such a junction and if it wasn't so dangerous it would make for great entertainment. All contenders for the Darwin Awards.

dayshah

From what I read here the only accidents are a cyclist crashing into the back of a Luas (I pity the fool) and some people falling off by getting their wheels caught in the tracks.

No serious life changing injuries.

People should be allowed cycle their at their own risk. Maybe they should keep the cobblestones right next to the rails, but put a flat surface in between so you have about a metre wide bit for comfortable cycling.

Just make it the rule that the Luas has right of way.

zynaps

doozerie wrote: »

On the topic of the RPA condoning cyclists cycling on the LUAS tracks, I contacted them last year to point out that in their online updates re the ongoing LUAS works in the IFSC they explicitly stated in the section regarding bicycles: "Do not cycle in tram lanes". I asked why they seemed to be applying this to shared areas of road where cars were allowed to drive along LUAS lines and the response that I got was that while yes it was technically okay to cycle along those stretches they had no plans to change their wording.

Sounds like a bit of a cop out. Or worse, that they're acknowledging their uselessness (and a lack of interest) with regards to improving safety for cyclists.

What's the track (:pac:) record for cycle accidents on the tramlines anyway? Probably lots of battered balls (raises hand) and the occasional fall when a trapped wheel suddenly bounces out (raises girlfriend's hand) but it would be interesting to get a count of serious incidents.

[edit]
Oops, answered since I started writing.

monument

Luas BXD and the city section of Lucan Luas -- cyclists and bendy tracks around College Green and Dame Street -- there'll be fun ahead!

poochiem

are our tramline different from elsewhere does anyone know? I rarely join the luas line due to road wheels but twice recently I've seen people crash bikes and a motorbike near smithfield - simply slipping on the tracks by the look of it. I remember calling the cops out of the four courts station at least once due to crashes further up the track too.

Paparazzo

Why do it when building the Luas for about €1m extra when you can do it 10th years later for €20m?

superrdave

I regularly cycle along the luas lines from Connolly to Smithfield (but oddly I cycle up the quays going the other way) and I've never seen anyone falling off. Obviously, it happens, but like absolutely every other use of the road, provided you are careful and aware of your surroundings, it shouldn't happen to you. I mean, the most important thing to watch out for is other road users doing things they shouldn't. Do that and you'll be fine. That said, I think the cobbles on the luas were quite specifically designed to stop cyclists. There is absolutely no other reason why such an expensive material would be used, because it is no hindrance whatsoever to cars, other than a slightly irritating increase in road noise (have you noticed the noise Garda cars make when they roll up and down it).

On another note, I have been stopped for cycling on the tracks. Once, cycling along Chancery Street / Mary's Abbey. The guard told me to stop cycling on the tracks and waved me on my way, saying I was a danger to myself.

All that said, I still avoid the tracks when it is raining.

BeerNut

superrdave wrote: »

I regularly cycle along the luas lines from Connolly to Smithfield ... the most important thing to watch out for is other road users doing things they shouldn't.

Having narrowly avoided several collisions with cyclists on the Luas track while crossing the tracks on Bow Street, my preference is for road users to stop doing things they're not supposed to do.