Dissident Republicans vow to kill dealers...

dlofnep · 20-09-2009 9:00pm

They are all stories about cigarette smuggling?

DoireNod · 20-09-2009 9:01pm

Souljacker wrote: »

I think it’s pretty much a given that the rira sell smuggled cigarettes and drink, after all it worked well for the provos.

So does that make the owners of pubs, nightclubs, off-licenses, restaurants, pharmacies, shops etc. drug dealers? Literally maybe, but they're not drug dealers in the traditional sense surely?

Or was that not your point?

Liam Byrne · 20-09-2009 9:11pm

dlofnep wrote: »

Where have I done this?

You seem to be supporting their threats to kill people, while categorically stating that they're not involved in drugs, giving them the benefit of the doubt.

You're also, incidentally, asking others for PROOF of RIRA crimes, while ignoring the fact that - by its nature - vigilantism would involve sentencing without proof; who's to say if the guys that the RIRA choose to kill are guilty ?

While I don't want to misrepresent anything or detract from FlutteringBantam's point of view, I'm going to temporarily use it to make an analogy; you're saying one thing IS true while he's saying another MIGHT BE; in the same scenario, if FlutteringBantam were the RIRA member claiming that someone were the drug dealer, I take it that you'd be supporting his actions in killing that someone ?

Souljacker · 20-09-2009 9:36pm

dlofnep wrote: »

They are all stories about cigarette smuggling?

That they are.

DoireNod wrote: »

So does that make the owners of pubs, nightclubs, off-licenses, restaurants, pharmacies, shops etc. drug dealers? Literally maybe, but they're not drug dealers in the traditional sense surely?

Or was that not your point?

Yes of course.

IMHO there isn't a hell of alot of difference between alochol, cigs and blow. I would imagine the rira include drug dealers who sell blow in their list. However, as I've stated above I can't see how dealing blow (in it's self) is any more harmful than dealing fags.

Obvously the rira, take the nod from the british/Irish governments when it comes to which drugs are ok to sell and which aint.

dlofnep · 20-09-2009 9:39pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

You seem to be supporting their threats to kill people

Where did I do this?

Liam Byrne wrote: »

while categorically stating that they're not involved in drugs, giving them the benefit of the doubt.

Until there is evidence to suggest otherwise, why wouldn't it? I've never heard of the RIRA dealing drugs, not in the media, or not through the word on the street. These claims are all new to me.

DoireNod · 20-09-2009 9:49pm

Souljacker wrote: »

Yes of course.

IMHO there isn't a hell of alot of difference between alochol, cigs and blow. I would imagine the rira include drug dealers who sell blow in their list. However, as I've stated above I can't see how dealing blow (in it's self) is any more harmful than dealing fags.

Obvously the rira, take the nod from the british/Irish governments when it comes to which drugs are ok to sell and which aint.

Out of interest, do you condone vigilantism (in the broad sense)?

I can see your point about the differences between 'acceptable' drugs and 'unacceptable' drugs, but what is your stance on drugs such as cocaine, heroin etc.? Do you see a difference between 'acceptable' drugs and these?

gandalf · 20-09-2009 9:50pm

FTA69 wrote: »

Who told you that? As I said earlier, much as ye'd like it to be the case, dissident Republican armed groups aren't necessarily motivated by personal gain. This notion of "taking out the competitors" is simply a pile of b*llocks to out it lightly.

Sorry I meant to come back to this earlier.

It came from this article in the Irish Times.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0917/1224254719983.html

This part at the end is the interesting one.

According to one Garda source, the Real IRA were previously involved in attempts to extort money from drug dealers in the Cork area, and he suggested that the current issuing of death threats to Cork drug dealers may be an attempt to do something similar.

deadhead13 · 20-09-2009 10:05pm

From a book "Organised crime:from trafficking to terrorism" by Frank Shanty.

"There is some evidence to link the RIRA with overseas drug trafficking although this is limited. Still, both groups (CIRA AND PIRA) maintain small protection rackets that do include franchising urban areas to drug dealers in order from them to operate". Which echos the times article above.

Souljacker · 20-09-2009 10:20pm

DoireNod wrote: »

Out of interest, do you condone vigilantism (in the broad sense)?

I can see your point about the differences between 'acceptable' drugs and 'unacceptable' drugs, but what is your stance on drugs such as cocaine, heroin etc.? Do you see a difference between 'acceptable' drugs and these?

No I don't condone vigilantism in any shape or form.

While cocaine and heroin are obviously going to have a bigger impact on the health of users than tobacco, alcohol and cannabis I think the selling of these drugs to adults (And I stress: IN ITSELF) is not a serious crime. Yes all have a pretty serious affect on the individual and society so in that respect I don't see much of a difference between acceptable and unacceptable drugs but it’s a question of where the money goes and what it's used for.

What consenting adults choose to make of their lives is their business, if I had to choose I'd rather see all drugs legalised (in a highly regulated environment) than the sale of heroin, cocaine and cannabis continue to fund organized crime.
For me the former is definitely the lesser of two evils.

Equally I think the over taxation of alcohol and tobacco contributes to the selling of smuggled cigarettes and drinks which equally contributes to the funding organised crime which is just as damaging as the sale of illegal drugs IMO.

dlofnep · 20-09-2009 10:23pm

Souljacker wrote: »

While cocaine and heroin are obviously going to have a bigger impact on the health of users than tobacco, alcohol and cannabis I think the selling of these drugs to adults (And I stress: IN ITSELF) is not a serious crime.

Not a serious crime? They knowingly sell it as an addictive substance, with intent to profit from it and know full well that the risks for the user involve death. Drug dealers don't only deal, but actively encourage and push their product.

When you say crime you are referring to law - in which it is a serious crime. So the issue here is morals - Is it morally or socially acceptable to sell potentially fatal-drugs that ruin people's lives? Absolutely not IMO.

Souljacker · 20-09-2009 10:37pm

dlofnep wrote: »

Not a serious crime? They knowingly sell it as an addictive substance, with intent to profit from it and know full well that the risks for the user involve death. Drug dealers don't only deal, but actively encourage and push their product.

When you say crime you are referring to law - in which it is a serious crime. So the issue here is morals - Is it morally or socially acceptable to sell potentially fatal-drugs that ruin people's lives? Absolutely not IMO.

Of course it a question of morals!! What I stated was **IMO** not what a serious crime is in the eyes of the law.

Read your first paragraph and tell me that doesn't apply to cigarettes! I take it you believe it isn't morally or socially acceptable to sell fags because they are most certainly a potentially fatal drug which ruins people’s lives.

You seem to have missed the part in my post where I said,***I THINK*** the sale of drugs like cannabis, cocaine and heroin ***IN ITSELF*** is not a serious crime I never mentioned the pushing of such drugs that's an entirely different matter.

Of course organised crime is going to want to push these harmful drugs (their profits hang in the balance) it's yet another reason why legalizing all drugs (in a highly regulated manner) would be preferable.

jank · 21-09-2009 12:56am

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

I'm talking about taking the law into their own hands pal.

Now, let's get down to it.

You stated the RIRA do not deal in drugs. Categorical!!

Now buddy.......evidence.

Enough already.

jank · 21-09-2009 1:01am

gandalf wrote: »

Sorry I meant to come back to this earlier.

It came from this article in the Irish Times.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0917/1224254719983.html

This part at the end is the interesting one.

In fairness Gandalf the gardai are not going to comment and say that they have basicly failed the public in their attempt at stopping this drug dealing. They will then try and paint any attempt to take the law into their own hands as a way of moving in on someone else turf. I would take anything the Gardai say here with a pinch of salt.

jank · 21-09-2009 1:09am

Although sad to see this happen it is not surprising.

FTA is right, keyboard warriors everywhere can point and condemn but you are not in the same environment as these people who are effected daily by drugs. When looking at this issue you have to put yourself in the locals shoes and FTA's comments come out as concerned and genuine about this issue. Peoples lives are being ruined by the week and there is only so much people can put up with. If the current system fails than its only time that people will look elsewhere for action.

The gardai need to do more to reassure people and do more to get the dealers.

It is just sad it has come to this.

No doubt we will hear alot more about this story.

seanybiker · 21-09-2009 1:17am

FTA69 wrote: »

One man stood up and let loose at the cops on the panel. His son was a full-blown addict who was arrested by the cops with a small wrap of heroin, they then stuck him into a patrol car and drove him around Knocknaheeny making him point out drug-dealers' houses in full view of anyone and everyone. Needless to say he came under threat and he killed himself a few weeks later.

Its not the cops fault that me man was a scummy heroin addict who decided to rat on people. Do you think he should have been left off because he wasnt a big dealer?

jank · 21-09-2009 1:28am

seanybiker wrote: »

Its not the cops fault that me man was a scummy heroin addict who decided to rat on people. Do you think he should have been left off because he wasnt a big dealer?

Do you think its right to for the Gardai to pick someone up and in full view of the community points out drug dealers. There is tact and there is tact. Mind boggles sometimes!

Rabble · 21-09-2009 11:12am

seanybiker wrote: »

Its not the cops fault that me man was a scummy heroin addict who decided to rat on people. Do you think he should have been left off because he wasnt a big dealer?

Let me get this right - you believe that people who inform on drug dealers do in fact "rat on people" and deserve to die??

Which side are you on?

FTA69 · 21-09-2009 1:55pm

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Marlo Hyland never got targeted by Sinn Fein controlled anti-drug marchers because he paid up. I can only assume something similar is going on here

That's crap, by the time Hyland established himself the COCAD movement had largely wound up and no marches were taking place at all.

FTA69 · 21-09-2009 2:01pm

seanybiker wrote: »

Its not the cops fault that me man was a scummy heroin addict who decided to rat on people. Do you think he should have been left off because he wasnt a big dealer?

He wasn't a dealer at all, he was a poor misfortunate b*stard with a crippling addiction that ruined his and his family's lives. This was then seized upon by the cops who used his addiction to put him in a highly dangerous situation which led to him eventually killing himself. He was someone's son, and if you saw his auld fella bawling his eyes out in front of half the community then perhaps you wouldn't be talking such complete and utter bollocks.

TheMilkyPirate · 21-09-2009 2:34pm

seanybiker wrote: »

Its not the cops fault that me man was a scummy heroin addict who decided to rat on people. Do you think he should have been left off because he wasnt a big dealer?

Are you for real? Just because he was an addict does not mean he was scum. I know two people fairly well who became addicts for whatever reason they fell in to it but are now clean and holding down very good jobs and both have started families. Not every addict is scum stealing or whatever for their addiction.

And the fact that the gardai put him in the squad car and drove him around and made him point out drug dealers in full view of the community is sickening as they knew full well that it would endanger his safety.

optocynic · 21-09-2009 2:35pm

FTA69 wrote: »

He wasn't a dealer at all, he was a poor misfortunate b*stard with a crippling addiction that ruined his and his family's lives. This was then seized upon by the cops who used his addiction to put him in a highly dangerous situation which led to him eventually killing himself. He was someone's son, and if you saw his auld fella bawling his eyes out in front of half the community then perhaps you wouldn't be talking such complete and utter bollocks.

Very true... total bollocks.

What we should do is use these tragedies to our advantage, to get emotionally devistated people, who have lost everything to support our illegal and violent group.

After all, it is the perfect recruitment rally.

"Hate Drug dealers?... then you have to join the RIRA"

the_syco · 21-09-2009 3:57pm

dlofnep wrote: »

The RIRA do not deal drugs.

He's actually right on that. They have never been convicted on dealing drugs. In saying that, have any of them being convicted for the actual bombing?

Also, the RIRA have a habit of killing Gardai, targeting the families of the PSNI, robbing cash vans, etc. Now they say they're going to target drug dealers. I can't seem them getting such a nice welcome in Limerick, as I'd say a few still remember them gunning down McCabe.

Liam Byrne · 21-09-2009 6:27pm

jank wrote: »

keyboard warriors everywhere can point and condemn but you are not in the same environment as these people who are effected

:
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When looking at this issue you have to put yourself in the locals shoes

:
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Peoples lives are being ruined by the week and there is only so much people can put up with.

Ironic, that, because all of the above statements can be applied to the lives ruined by RIRA.

RIRA "putting themselves in the shoes" of locals being affected by drug dealers ? If they'd put themselves in the shoes of people doing their shopping in Omagh, then they might be consistent in this and have some credibility.

As it is, they have NONE.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 21-09-2009 6:34pm

FTA69 wrote: »

That's crap, by the time Hyland established himself the COCAD movement had largely wound up and no marches were taking place at all.

No, you're wrong. In 1996 there was a large CPAD campaign in Finglas/Cabra. Marlo was making a lot of money then from drugs and the protesters never went near him.

shampoosuicide · 21-09-2009 6:34pm

i'm actually all for this. remember that innocent lad who was killed with a shotgun a few weeks back? have the guards tracked down the scum who did that? have they ****. let the vigilantes take the ***** out, and i hope they make it as slow and painful as possible

Souljacker · 21-09-2009 7:08pm

shampoosuicide wrote: »

i'm actually all for this. remember that innocent lad who was killed with a shotgun a few weeks back? have the guards tracked down the scum who did that? have they ****. let the vigilantes take the ***** out, and i hope they make it as slow and painful as possible

And what do you thinks’ going to happen when the RIRA start trying to assonate drug dealers? There'll be retaliation attracts and inevitably more innocent people like the guy, Shane you’re talking about murdered.

The RIRA are as bad as the drug dealers, they just raise their funds to create misery in different ways. A turf war (which is what this I’ll turn into) does nothing to ease the lot of locals.

Are you also happy for the RIRA to attempt to take out the family members of psni officers as they tried to do in Derry last week? Don't think the rira list ends with drug dealers.

the_syco · 21-09-2009 9:26pm

shampoosuicide wrote: »

remember that innocent lad who was killed with a shotgun a few weeks back?

You must be really niave. If the RIRA kill anyone they want, whom they "think" is a dealer, they'll be killing a lots of innocent people to kill a few drug dealers. A mistake? Nah, they're a dealer. Someone owes you money? Call them a dealer, and they're dead.

We are not talking about "law-abiding" vigilantes here. We are talking about terrorists who have no qualms about shooting the police forces in the UK and Ireland, and who do a few dodgy deals to get the funds for their weapons.

DoireNod · 21-09-2009 9:37pm

the_syco wrote: »

We are not talking about "law-abiding" vigilantes here. We are talking about terrorists who have no qualms about shooting the police forces in the UK and Ireland, and who do a few dodgy deals to get the funds for their weapons.

Is there a such thing as a law-abiding vigilante?

shampoosuicide · 21-09-2009 11:02pm

the_syco wrote: »

You must be really niave. If the RIRA kill anyone they want, whom they "think" is a dealer, they'll be killing a lots of innocent people to kill a few drug dealers. A mistake? Nah, they're a dealer. Someone owes you money? Call them a dealer, and they're dead.

We are not talking about "law-abiding" vigilantes here. We are talking about terrorists who have no qualms about shooting the police forces in the UK and Ireland, and who do a few dodgy deals to get the funds for their weapons.

yeah my comment was pretty naive,and i don't approve of the RIRA by any stretch of the imagination, but i guess the gist of what i'm saying is that if 1 or 2 dealer scumbags were dealt with by forces outside of the law i wouldn't be too torn up about it.

jank · 21-09-2009 11:13pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Ironic, that, because all of the above statements can be applied to the lives ruined by RIRA.

RIRA "putting themselves in the shoes" of locals being affected by drug dealers ? If they'd put themselves in the shoes of people doing their shopping in Omagh, then they might be consistent in this and have some credibility.

As it is, they have NONE.

I am not condoning what the RIRA do. However, all the finger wagging and tut tutting in the world will not change what is happening on the ground.

How about addressing the issue of drug dealers in local community's and the abject failure of the state and the gardai to protect the local community from drugs. The state has been shown to be in pocket of the banking and builder class, they don't give 2 ****s about this problem of a few thousand working class citizens of its country.

Thing is though. If this were some random group of locals that were taking a stand I would imagine the attitude of this would threat to be very different, a kind of good on them for trying to stand up to scum. Of course because there is a republican element than it must be that they are only looking after themselves. ? right! Nothing is ever black and white.

I tell you want, go down to a working class community that has a very bad problem with drugs and ask them what they think...... because my opinion and your opinion doesn't matter a damm, if they think it might help solve or curb the problem then thats all that really matter. Not saying its right or wrong but thats the reality of it.

If there is huge support in a locality for this type of action than somebody or some group is going to fill it. "Nature abhors a vacuum" as one could say.

Do you think the people of Ireland would object to those limerick gangs that has been causing so many problems over the years be taken out into the countryside a shot in a shallow grave? Of course the idea of it is kinda barbaric but it would get alot of support most of all in Limerick. Media commentators would probably go on and talk about the end of Ireland as it is but many a man and woman around the country would say good riddance.

Its great to lecture from an Ivory tower.

Dissident Republicans vow to kill dealers...

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