Dissident Republicans vow to kill dealers...

Souljacker

jank wrote: »

I am not condoning what the RIRA do. However, all the finger wagging and tut tutting in the world will not change what is happening on the ground.

How about addressing the issue of drug dealers in local community's and the abject failure of the state and the gardai to protect the local community from drugs. The state has been shown to be in pocket of the banking and builder class, they don't give 2 ****s about this problem of a few thousand working class citizens of its country.

Thing is though. If this were some random group of locals that were taking a stand I would imagine the attitude of this would threat to be very different, a kind of good on them for trying to stand up to scum. Of course because there is a republican element than it must be that they are only looking after themselves. ? right! Nothing is ever black and white.

I tell you want, go down to a working class community that has a very bad problem with drugs and ask them what they think...... because my opinion and your opinion doesn't matter a damm, if they think it might help solve or curb the problem then thats all that really matter. Not saying its right or wrong but thats the reality of it.

If there is huge support in a locality for this type of action than somebody or some group is going to fill it. "Nature abhors a vacuum" as one could say.

Do you think the people of Ireland would object to those limerick gangs that has been causing so many problems over the years be taken out into the countryside a shot in a shallow grave? Of course the idea of it is kinda barbaric but it would get alot of support most of all in Limerick. Media commentators would probably go on and talk about the end of Ireland as it is but many a man and woman around the country would say good riddance.

Its great to lecture from an Ivory tower.

You've made very good points, in particular that in reality it's the people who this will affect the most who's opinions matter the most, that's very true.

However in reality their opinions don't matter a damn because organised crime and paramilitaries alike will use force and intimidation to control communities, to make their money and to enforce their law.

The rira are not some benevolent force here to serve the will of the people, there a fascist group who want to use force to achieve their political aims. That's all they care about
Their threat is nothing more than a crass bit of propaganda, to convince the naive (nationally) that they have the moral high ground, if they make good on their threat it will lead to more innocent bloodshed because the drug dealers are armed too!

The main reason drug dealers get away with murder (literally) is because of intimidation, the rira operate in exactly the same way, so what possible good could come of this?

Not a lecture, just reality.

Liam Byrne

shampoosuicide wrote: »

yeah my comment was pretty naive,and i don't approve of the RIRA by any stretch of the imagination, but i guess the gist of what i'm saying is that if 1 or 2 dealer scumbags were dealt with by forces outside of the law i wouldn't be too torn up about it.

And in part I'd agree; as long as those people had the high moral ground and were ONLY doing it for the good of society.

HOWEVER, my point is that people in glasshouses shouldn't throw stones, particularly where they have previously defended the indefensible and ruined so many peoples' lives themselves.

So the objection ISN'T down to a "republican" involvement; it's down to the TYPE of republican - one who has already shown that their definition of law and order and crime is biased and blinkered and out-of-touch with reality and public opinion, so they CANNOT claim that they are doing a public service.

If they were going after people who broke the law, why haven't they killed those who committed Omagh, or those who murdered Gardai, or those who robbed the Northern Bank ?

Answer : because in their warped version of "justice", they - in their f**ked up mindset - don't view those CRIMES as crimes.

gurramok

If the state creates a vacuum from a lack of policing and justice, its damn obvious some group whether its the mujahadeen from Ballivor or the Vigilante Justice Army from Clifden would fill the vacuum!!

Don't create that vacuum in the first place and this thread wouldn't exist and neither would the likes of RIRA get their propaganda on the issue.

FlutterinBantam

We are talking chicken and egg stuff here.

For years the only way in and out of South Armagh for the forces of law and order was by helicopter, such was the level of animosity towards them.

While the state was culpable surely,equally, opportunists and criminals used the situation, and are still using the situation to foment unrest and uncertainty to mask their criminal activities.

Matt Baggot starts today as head of the PSNI and his key interview point was more community policing.

He will have his work cut out in certain areas.

Justice and law and order cut both ways

jank

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

We are talking chicken and egg stuff here.

For years the only way in and out of South Armagh for the forces of law and order was by helicopter, such was the level of animosity towards them.

While the state was culpable surely,equally, opportunists and criminals used the situation, and are still using the situation to foment unrest and uncertainty to mask their criminal activities.

Matt Baggot starts today as head of the PSNI and his key interview point was more community policing.

He will have his work cut out in certain areas.

Justice and law and order cut both ways

I am not sure South Armagh has to do with Cork drug dealers.

the_syco

DoireNod wrote: »

Is there a such thing as a law-abiding vigilante?

Yes. If a group of concerned citizens banded together, I'd class them as "law-abiding vigilantes".

jank wrote: »

I am not sure South Armagh has to do with Cork drug dealers.

How long will it be before you can't enter Cork by foot out of fear of being killed by the RIRA? That they will have to arrive by chopper? They have shown in the past that killing Gardai is not beyond them.

DoireNod

the_syco wrote: »

Yes. If a group of concerned citizens banded together, I'd class them as "law-abiding vigilantes".

If the concerned citizens banded together and used means outside of law in pursuit of justice, they can't be 'law-abiding'. Maybe the republicans in this case class themselves as concerned citizens. They're still contravening 'Law'.

optocynic

DoireNod wrote: »

If the concerned citizens banded together and used means outside of law in pursuit of justice, they can't be 'law-abiding'. Maybe the republicans in this case class themselves as concerned citizens. They're still contravening 'Law'.

It's a (very) thinly veiled PR stunt.
These guys think nothing of murdering Gardai... British soldiers... Innocent Omagh shoppers... do you really think they are now champions of social morality?

DoireNod

optocynic wrote: »

It's a (very) thinly veiled PR stunt.
These guys think nothing of murdering Gardai... British soldiers... Innocent Omagh shoppers... do you really think they are now champions of social morality?

I was just saying that there are no law-abiding vigilantes. Unless you class people who report crime as vigilantes.

I'm not sure what social morality exists in this country!

optocynic

DoireNod wrote: »

I'm not sure what social morality exists in this country!

No disagreement here. Integrity is in such short supply across ALL layers of our society...

jank

the_syco wrote: »

How long will it be before you can't enter Cork by foot out of fear of being killed by the RIRA? That they will have to arrive by chopper? They have shown in the past that killing Gardai is not beyond them.

Jump to extreme conclusions much?

Nehaxak

As much as I detest drug dealers, I equally detest the RIRA as much if not more so than them.
The RIRA threat on dealers, though I have no doubt they would or could carry out some of those threats, is based on upping their support base in the area's most effected/devestated by drugs by doing what the Gardai cannot do, kill the dealers. No judge, no jury (if ever anyway), no if's and's or but's, just kill them and get it over with.

However you don't have to live in the area's worst effected to realise that for the amount of dealers you might kill, there's equally as many around to step up and take over within a few hours in other area's outside of those they've been warned out of.
So it's an utterly futile approach, but the RIRA would know this themselves yet would still continue on that approach as they know they will gain support, however secret and quiet it might be, they will gain support for their actions as an act of revenge grinds deep into a persons self satisfaction and seeing dealers dead is a better option for a lot of people rather than see them dealt with by the laws of the land, which for the most part fail the communities who put faith in them. I'm sure the Gardai are equally as frustrated trying to put dealers away and seeing some of them back out on temporary release a few weeks later.

Most dealers (from my own personal experience) will deal mostly in hash so legalising that would go a long way and help better to concentrate the resources of the state against the scourge of more harder and addictive drugs, freeing up Garda time which is wasted chasing after mostly teenagers selling a bit of hash - a total waste of time, money and resources.
In this day and age I think it's stupid that hash is still illegal.

If hash is legalised and resources/manpower are concentrated more on the harder and utterly more devestating drugs, it would I feel go an awful long way to helping reduce the drugs on the streets and the associated crime.

At most, the best the RIRA can hope to achieve for the communities they do this in, is to drive the dealers out of the area and into other area's. Sure that might help to get the dealers out of that community, but not the drug problem itself.
It is though something that the Gardai and the state itself cannot, have not and will not do and that is where the opportunity arises for the RIRA to go in and take advantage.

As I said, as much as I hate the RIRA, if they killed every hard drug dealer in Ireland tomorrow, barely a tear would be shed other than that of their family and friends (if even!).

If you look at it from a PR perspective, if the RIRA wanted to gain better support for their organisation in the Republic at least, killing drug dealers would surely give them that. As a matter of fact, just killing a few of them and warning the rest to leave the country could equally have as much effect.

A void exists to be filled, personally I'd rather see hash legallised and then a shoot to kill zero tolerance policy enacted by the Irish government against hard drug dealers and have that policy carried out by the Gardai with the help of the Army.
Evidence gather by the Gardai, sanctioned by the criminal courts (and ultimately the government) and executions carried out by the Army.

Might be a drastic and draconian measure but give it two months in operation in Dublin as a test case and I'd safely bet the drug problem here would be wiped out. In fact, enact the legislation and give a 2 month warning in advance, a "dealers amnesty" if you will, to give up their trade. After that, wipe any remaining dealers out.

When the drugs problem is eliminated, the legislation can be put to sleep to shut the whiners up but available to be re-enacted in the future if ever needed again.
If a referendum is needed to enact the legislation in the first place then so be it, you can bet it would get huge support.

Liam Byrne

jank wrote: »

Jump to extreme conclusions much?

I'm curious; why did you include the part of the_syco's post that highlighted that killing Gardai is not beyond these thugs when saying this ?

FTA69

the_syco wrote: »

Yes. If a group of concerned citizens banded together, I'd class them as "law-abiding vigilantes".


How long will it be before you can't enter Cork by foot out of fear of being killed by the RIRA? That they will have to arrive by chopper? They have shown in the past that killing Gardai is not beyond them.

What a load of alarmist crap. Do you honestly believe that the Real IRA threatening drug dealers will lead to Cork becoming a no-go zone? The Reals have also never killed a guard.

FTA69

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

No, you're wrong. In 1996 there was a large CPAD campaign in Finglas/Cabra. Marlo was making a lot of money then from drugs and the protesters never went near him.

There was no CPAD in the mid-1990s, there was the Coalition of Communities Against Drugs. Similarly COCAD was never controlled by either the IRA or Sinn Féin, while members of these two organisations often played a prominant role in COCAD, the organisation was generally a loosely-organised community group. Your notion that COCAD were simply dupes of the Provos is simply a regurgitation of the absolute nonsense and propaganda put about at that time.

Liam Byrne

FTA69 wrote: »

The Reals have also never killed a guard.

"The Reals" ????? :rolleyes:

It may not have been your intention, but using colloquialisms like that imply acceptance and attempted normalisation.

the_syco

jank wrote: »

Jump to extreme conclusions much?

You asked what South Armagh had to do with Cork. The IRA kept the the forces of the law out of it except by chopper. The RIRA now seem to have their sights on Cork, for whatever reason, and I wonder will the RIRA walk away when they have achived a fan base in Cork, or make a new fort for themselves?

I do like their humour of picking the "Rebel County" for their first port of call, though.

FTA69 wrote: »

The Reals have also never killed a guard.

My bad. I got the RIRA mixed up with the IRA.

=-=

I wonder how the RIRA plan to deal with the drug dealers? The top three ways (judging by what the IRA/INLA/etc have done) are:
a) telling them to move elsewhere
b) shooting them
c) brutally murdering them with hammers, machetes, baseballs bats, etc, at their homes

jank

the_syco wrote: »

You asked what South Armagh had to do with Cork. The IRA kept the the forces of the law out of it except by chopper. The RIRA now seem to have their sights on Cork, for whatever reason, and I wonder will the RIRA walk away when they have achived a fan base in Cork, or make a new fort for themselves?

Well nobody here is even suggesting that these areas of Cork will become no go areas for Gardai (exept you). This threat was not issued against gardai, it was issued against dealers of class A drugs. Your comparison might as well have been of Baghdad and Cork. What next is in the RIRA sights... world domination pinky and the brain style...?

What is the last time the RIRA did anything of note in Cork? But all of a sudden cork is now a pseudo mini state with its own laws and army!
So yes, alarmist sensationalist nonsense is what you are posting.

Liam Byrne

jank wrote: »

.....all of a sudden cork is now a pseudo mini state with its own laws and army!

The phrase "it's own army" would imply that the majority of people in Cork has suddenly started to support and request action from RIRA.

I sincerely doubt that this is the case; yes, there may be a tiny minority in a particular area that are so frustrated that their common sense is gone out the window and they would welcome any intervention from anyone, but suggesting that RIRA would somehow become Cork's "own army" is miles off the truth.

What annoys me is the implied acceptance; I mean, if other terrorist groups such as Al Quaida arrived and offered to - ahem - "help", what would the reaction be ?

DoireNod

Liam Byrne wrote: »

The phrase "it's own army" would imply that the majority of people in Cork has suddenly started to support and request action from RIRA.

I sincerely doubt that this is the case; yes, there may be a tiny minority in a particular area that are so frustrated that their common sense is gone out the window and they would welcome any intervention from anyone, but suggesting that RIRA would somehow become Cork's "own army" is miles off the truth.

Ireland has its own army, but I'm not sure if the majority of people in Ireland support and request action from it. The same could be said of many armies. While it is preferred, they do not necessarily need support to take action. I know it's not really the issue at hand and I don't think the RIRA are going to become Cork's own army, but I think it's a germane point.

I also don't think it's fair to suggest that the people who gladly accept intervention in this case are lacking in common sense.

What annoys me is the implied acceptance; I mean, if other terrorist groups such as Al Quaida arrived and offered to - ahem - "help", what would the reaction be ?

I'd say they'd be asking why they came all the way to Ireland to fight drug dealers on behalf of concerned Irish citizens when they should be defending themselves.

Liam Byrne

DoireNod wrote: »

I also don't think it's fair to suggest that the people who gladly accept intervention in this case are lacking in common sense.

At face value, accepting intervention would not imply a lack of common sense, no; however accepting it from an illegal organisation which makes up its own rules and laws would be.

DoireNod wrote: »

I'd say they'd be asking why they came all the way to Ireland to fight drug dealers on behalf of concerned Irish citizens when they should be defending themselves.

Really ? I'd be asking why we were letting an additional group of terrorists into the country. I can't speak for everyone, but I would reckon that a significant number of people would be thinking similarly.

And I love the "on behalf of"; terrorists and criminals (and, in this country, politicians) don't usually do anything "on behalf of" anyone except themselves.

DoireNod

Liam Byrne wrote: »

At face value, accepting intervention would not imply a lack of common sense, no; however accepting it from an illegal organisation which makes up its own rules and laws would be.

Well, all vigilantes are making up their own laws and rules and are pretty much by definition, illegal. What if it wasn't the RIRA, and it was a group of normal individuals with no political agenda who took up arms against the dealers?

Really ? I'd be asking why we were letting an additional group of terrorists into the country. I can't speak for everyone, but I would reckon that a significant number of people would be thinking similarly.

Aye, it's an absurd image altogether.

And I love the "on behalf of"; terrorists and criminals (and, in this country, politicians) don't usually do anything "on behalf of" anyone except themselves.

We're all selfish, as bleak as it is. It's in our nature.

Liam Byrne

DoireNod wrote: »

What if it wasn't the RIRA, and it was a group of normal individuals with no political agenda who took up arms against the dealers?

I'll gloss over the "political agenda" aspect, because I don't believe it.

Basically, I could understand if any group felt that the only way out was to act in a vigilante manner; mightn't 100% agree, but I could understand it.

The criteria I would put on it would be that - in order to give them the benefit of the doubt in wanting to weed out criminals - they would have to not be criminals themselves and have to be law-abiding in all other respects.

DoireNod wrote: »

We're all selfish, as bleak as it is. It's in our nature.

Selfish, maybe. But most decent people are law-abiding and respect others (at least those who are law-abiding).

DoireNod

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I'll gloss over the "political agenda" aspect, because I don't believe it.

Is this with respect to the RIRA (who have a political agenda) or the group of concerned, otherwise law-abiding, citizens without a political agenda?

Basically, I could understand if any group felt that the only way out was to act in a vigilante manner; mightn't 100% agree, but I could understand it.

The criteria I would put on it would be that - in order to give them the benefit of the doubt in wanting to weed out criminals - they would have to not be criminals themselves and have to be law-abiding in all other respects.

That's where I have problems. People condemn vigilantism from a 'terrorist' group, because they are already 'terrorist', but there is a distinction to be made for those who would readily take up arms and cause harm to dealers, but only if they are otherwise law-abiding. That doesn't make sense to me.

Selfish, maybe. But most decent people are law-abiding and respect others (at least those who are law-abiding).

And many law-abiding people can be arseholes, disrespectful and may harbour ill-feeling towards others. There have been cases where people have carried out bad things within the Law. Just because people are Law-abiding doesn't mean they are good. Certainly, there are numerous cases where good, decent people have found themselves in a situation where they've been given no other option than to break the Law of the land. I wouldn't consider someone a decent person on the merit that they abide by the Law.

Liam Byrne

DoireNod wrote: »

Just because people are Law-abiding doesn't mean they are good. Certainly, there are numerous cases where good, decent people have found themselves in a situation where they've been given no other option than to break the Law of the land. I wouldn't consider someone a decent person on the merit that they abide by the Law.

I can agree with the gist of that, in principle; maybe "law-abiding" was the wrong word - maybe I should have said "treating all people with due respect and dignity", whether within the law or otherwise.

So your viewpoint - however valid - does not extend to the members of RIRA, since that description ensures that I will draw the line at anyone who has EVER killed innocent people as a direct result of their inconsiderate, illegal and despicable actions.

jank

Liam Byrne wrote: »

The phrase "it's own army" would imply that the majority of people in Cork has suddenly started to support and request action from RIRA.

I sincerely doubt that this is the case; yes, there may be a tiny minority in a particular area that are so frustrated that their common sense is gone out the window and they would welcome any intervention from anyone, but suggesting that RIRA would somehow become Cork's "own army" is miles off the truth.?

I totally agree but maybe you should be directing that question to the_syco not me.

evercloserunion

Not that I like the IRA or anything but who here would cry if a heroin dealer was killed?

Liam Byrne

evercloserunion wrote: »

Not that I like the IRA or anything but who here would cry if a heroin dealer was killed?

Probably very few; but given past actions by these groups - killing "informers", etc - who's to say what criteria they'd apply in deciding ?

And that's not even taking into account that they've no problem killing innocent people either.

optocynic

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Probably very few; but given past actions by these groups - killing "informers", etc - who's to say what criteria they'd apply in deciding ?

And that's not even taking into account that they've no problem killing innocent people either.

And how many victims of their's would they claim were dealing heroin after the fact?

Liam Byrne

optocynic wrote: »

And how many victims of their's would they claim were dealing heroin after the fact?

They'd probably just phone the same "inactive" Gardai a warning so those victims would be the Gardai's fault. :rolleyes: