Breeding Advise Needed

toadfly

Hi All,

just looking for some advice.

Someone I know has three dogs (two bitches, sisters, 15months old, one dog 13 months old) the two bitches are in heat for the second time and is planning on mating both of them with the dog. I personally think it is too soon and cant be good for the dogs in the long run. I have been looking online but cant seem to find anything which says what age they should be bred at for the first time. I have told her this but she doesnt seem to care If I can print off something off the net I might have more chance but cant seem to find anything right. One of the bitches mated with the dog the during her first heat but didnt get pregnant.

Maybe I am way off on this but I am thinking of the welfare of the dogs and potential puppies. She has lost her job and thinking of these dogs as ATMs. Also how often is it safe for the bitches to have puppies? I have heard to let her rest every third time she is in heat.

Any advise appreciated. Thanks.

Lemlin

Don't know who but someone else posted these IKC guidelines before and I copied them so I'm quoting it now:

Male dog guidelines
Minimum age to start breeding: 18 months
Maximum age to breed: 12 years
Males must mate a MAXIMUM of one bitch per fortnight.
If these rules are ignored, i.e. the male is bred earlier than one year, the kennel club reserve the right to refuse to register any pups born. Male dogs are, however, quite capable of siring a litter far earlier than this(puberty at 6months?), so you must be aware of these rules before you put your dog to stud with the intention of having IKC reg'd pups.
Out of interest for anyone with a bitch, recommended age: at least 18-24 months, must be no older than 8 years and definitely no younger than one year, and must not exceed a maximum of 6 litters in a lifetime.

andreac

Hi there, well done on being concerned for the welfare of the dogs.

Well personally i think 13 months is way to young, sure shes only a baby for gods sake!

Have they bred before and do they know how much work and heart ache is invloved in it?
What breed of dogs are they?
I cant believe she is considering having 2 litters of pups at the same time, i really do wonder about people. If she is that set on having a litter, at least let the older bitch have a litter and let the younger one mature as shes only a baby.

Bitches shouldnt be mated more than once a year and i def wouldnt be mating it every heat, that is just down right cruel, what is worng with some people??
Fair play to you for trying to look out for the doggies, but it sounds like these people really dont care about the welfare of their doggies, and only looking for cash as you say, its very sad but all you can do is try and convince her not to do it.
Theres a link here which you should maybe print off and let her have a look.

http://www.irishdogs.ie/Forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9029&title=thinking-of-breeding

Inexile

If lemlins guidelines are right (and they sound it to me) then the dog which is 13 months is too young and the bitches who are 15 months each are also too young. If these are registered dogs then the IKC shouldnt be registering them - though Im not too sure if they are that thorough in followin up their own guidelines.

Get this person to read the info that Andreac has posted and start talking about how expensive dog breeding is - emergency vet bills , heat lamps, food supplements etc. The mention how time consuming and tiring it is. They just may change their mind!

ghost_ie

Inexile wrote: »

If lemlins guidelines are right (and they sound it to me) then the dog which is 13 months is too young and the bitches who are 15 months each are also too young. If these are registered dogs then the IKC shouldnt be registering them - though Im not too sure if they are that thorough in followin up their own guidelines.

Get this person to read the info that Andreac has posted and start talking about how expensive dog breeding is - emergency vet bills , heat lamps, food supplements etc. The mention how time consuming and tiring it is. They just may change their mind!

And also point out that in a recession people will not be so keen on buying puppies, so she may be left with unsold pups that are going to cost her a lot to feed.

What breed are these dogs?

toadfly

Hi Guys,

thanks for the replies. No she has no experience breeding dogs at all, has gotten books etc but never been at the birth of a dog. Have you got the link to the IKC guidelines? I couldnt find it, I find that website very difficult!

They are Maltese, she thinks there will be problem selling them but they are very expensive so it might be difficult, they are in demand though. Dont know what to do at this stage sick of fighting over it. She wont listen maybe I should just drop it because it is doing no good just annoying me! :mad:

Top Dog

Sorry to be blunt but the someone you know is a moron! Anyone willing to pay out for a Maltese is going to do their homework and most certainly won't buy from someone breeding dogs so young.

Have a look at the following link which might help scare the person

http://siddhartha-tt.com/downsideofinbreeding.htm

dee o gee

Theres some excellent posts on the irishdogs link that andreac posted, its not all straight forward and things do go wrong and bitches do sometimes die, Id say print that whole page out and let her read about when whelping goes wrong, if she really loves her dogs then she won't breed them, not to mention the costs of when it goes wrong this might turn her off it moreso!

dylanrose

Please please beg this friend not to breed her dog. I hate seeing people breeding dogs in Ireland when we have a huge rate of destroyed dogs. The last thing we need are more. Please rescue your dogs and cats!

kildara

Get in contact with a reputable breeder of Maltese and ask them what ages the dogs and bitches should be before they are bred.
I saw this because most reputable breeders will put a restriction on their pups that will not allow you to register a litter from these pups until they have reached a certain age. Our rotty has a restriction that we would not breed until she is two years of age because before that the dog is not physically, emotionally and otherwise ready for a litter.

p.sheridan

hi, really forget about the age thing that is not really your problem here. I have bred dogs for years and historically, leaving the boom years out of it, puppy prices have been determined by the difficulty level of breeding them. Hence Malteese, brittish bulldogs, pugs, have always carried a premium price.
Breeding maltese is hugely difficult, I would not even take it on.
You will need a) experience of whelping b) a great vet who will come out at 3am if necessary c) available funds for vets fees apart from expected profits from pup sales d) endless time, I mean home all day and night for first 3 weeks e) lots of luck F) have an awareness that you may loose your bitch.

Now breeding two litters together .......... madness

The dogs ages in this instance is a minor issue

lorebringer

p.sheridan wrote: »

hi, really forget about the age thing that is not really your problem here. I have bred dogs for years and historically, leaving the boom years out of it, puppy prices have been determined by the difficulty level of breeding them. Hence Malteese, brittish bulldogs, pugs, have always carried a premium price.
Breeding maltese is hugely difficult, I would not even take it on.
You will need a) experience of whelping b) a great vet who will come out at 3am if necessary c) available funds for vets fees apart from expected profits from pup sales d) endless time, I mean home all day and night for first 3 weeks e) lots of luck F) have an awareness that you may loose your bitch.

Now breeding two litters together .......... madness

The dogs ages in this instance is a minor issue

+ 10!

Experience in whelping difficult breeds is a must, the likelihood of something going wrong is quite high and both pups and bitch can be lost very quickly. I'm presuming (from what you said) that she doesn't have too much of a plan (or a clue!) about the whole process. Expecting everything to be ok is a big no no - what if something (and it often does) goes wrong? There are endless lists of pregnancy problems, birthing problems and after birth issues with both pups and mother, most of which require a lot of time and expense to put right. Is she willing to hand feed is needed? Or have endless trips to the vet with sick pups? An awful lot of work that has to be put in to ensure happy and healthy pups (and mother).

If your friend is in it for money, she's crazy! Everything adds up very quickly (vet fees, food, wormer, vaxing, chipping, registration etc. etc. etc.) and if she is lucky will make a small profit. Decent breeders usually only make a little bit from each litter but often barely break even, and if something unplanned happens, a monetary loss from a litter is expected! Malteses have small litters (uasually about 2 pups) and any profit gets eaten up very quickly.

With regards to the age issue - breeding dogs at a young age can be detramental for the genetics of offspring. Often, dogs don't have symptoms of any problems when they are young and as they get older genetic issues come to light (as far as I am aware, Malteses suffer with eye and liver problems).

And breeding two at once is insane. Unless she can keep them seperated (without access to each others pups) while still letting them have freedom she is asking for trouble. Bitches with pups will not let another bitches pups live if she encounters them, no matter how sweet and loving she is as a pet she will kill pups that are not her own. Hell, I have witnessed bitches without litters (but have had previous litters) attack 3/4 month old pups without hesitiation. Not to mention, aggresstion towards each other, bitches can be very unpredictable after giving birth and it's not unknown for them to attack all dogs around them. If she is whelping them at the same time it will be very stressful and restricting access can be more difficult than one might think.

I hope something you say to your friend goes in, good luck!

toadfly

Hi guys,

thanks for all the replies, I agree completely with what has been said. Unfortunately I have been unable to get through to her. she is impossible it is at a stage now I just cant mention it anymore because we just fight about it. She wont listen. I have been told my someone else that one of the bitches is pregnant, she hasnt told me and I dont plan on asking her about it anymore. Nothing is going in and it is so frustrating. I just hope nothing bad happens but then if by some holy grace nothing goes wrong she wont learn and something bad is going to happen to these dogs at some stage.

I dont know what else I can do, I have tried talking to her she hasnt listened and now the poor dog is pregnant.

Thanks xx

happyfeet22

Breeding takes a lot of time and effort. After about three weeks pups start to move around and the mother stops cleaning up after them a pup poos at least three times a day multiply that by four or five pups and it’s a lot of mess.

What if the mother rejects her pups is your friend prepared for bottle feeding every 3 hours. From about three weeks pups need to be start eating solids that’s three meals a day and dishes need to be cleaned after each feed .

It also costs a lot to raise a litter of pups your friend would be lucky to break even.
Costs - From experience
IKC registration
vet
Food
Toys Etc

Other things that most people don’t take into account:

If the mother rejects the pups replacement milk and bottles
Wassing powder – beds will need to be changed twice daily
Extra usage on electricity
Cleening products – floors and walls will need to be cleaned at least twice daily.
Advertising the pups
Time of work to help the mother during whelping
emergency vet trips for sick pups etc
vet visit and antibiotics for the bitch for such things as Mastitis
Health certs for mother and father of the pups

That’s only for the first eight weeks all the pups won’t sell straight away!!!!!
Oh and breading two litters at once when she hasn’t a clue what she is doing pure Madness

p.sheridan

BTW for any other potential ,amateur breeder reading this, with rejection by the mum, or even with a poor or inexperienced mum apart from the feeding, toilet assistance is required. I had a litter of 4 recently where the mum was totally uninterested. for the first week the pups needed to be manually suckled and their bums rubbed with warm damp tissue to stimulate excretion every 2 hours night and day. The mum never once licked them. after the first week she would allow them to suckle but not encourage it. she never cleaned up their poo. 2 died, at 16 and 18 days respectively. they were delivered by section. I have been doing this all my adult life simply because there is nothing other than my own kids that matches the joy I get from seing a litter born and develop into happy healthy socialised puppies and then seeing the joy on peoples face when they leave this hous delighted with the new addition to their family. I have generations of the same familes who have come back to me for second and third puppies.
Anyhow I'm not into the ranting, let her at it, anyone is entitled to breed from their dog, there is no law against it. I hope it goes well for her but If she is doing it for the cash even if she makes 2000 out of it I predict she will never do it again !!! Money is not sufficient reward for the work involved. Unless you you enjoy it. You might let us know how she gets on.

toadfly

Hi all,

just a quick update...one of the bitches had 4 pups this morning. All are ok so far hopefully there wont be any complications. All girls by the way. I am looking forward to seeing them, I love dogs but just wish she hadnt gone through with it.

The other one didnt get pregnant this time.

Paul91

i'm just coming to the end of raising 6 German Shep/Newfie pups and i am physically wrecked (and financially) so good luck to your friend