Has Declan Ganley / Coir hired a team of shills?

vanla sighs

marco_polo wrote: »

No just the ones pedalling lies about abortion, neutrality, taxation, immigration etc.

Well, what you may consider lies others may not. Simple as that. By the way I'm pro-choice, pro-EU, neutrality isn't such a concern for me, taxation isn't either - as long as we retain our low corporation tax, immigration - I believe in controlled immigration because it makes sense. But feel free to disagree. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

BlitzKrieg

but your not entitled to peddle your opinion as fact.

K-9

marco_polo wrote: »

No just the ones pedalling lies about abortion, neutrality, taxation, immigration etc.

It is noticeable how posters seize like Hyenas on one post on this thread and ignore others.

Sam Vimes

vanla sighs wrote: »

Well, what you may consider lies others may not. Simple as that.

Something is either true or it's not. You can insist that something is true all you want but that does not make it so

crusader9872

The entrance of the UKIP party into the debate on the treaty has virtually guarenteed that it will pass. If that shower of right wing bigots are against it then that is a good enough reason to vote yes as far as i am concerned. And by the way how dare they get involved in an irish debate, this is the party that in there own country are vehemently anti irish

vanla sighs

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

but your not entitled to peddle your opinion as fact.

Actually, I am......as long as I believe my opinion to be in fact, a fact. It doesn't matter if it is or isn't a fact in the eyes of others, all that matters is that I believe it to be. But, you have your our opinion and you're welcome to it just as I have mine.

Ok, look at it this way......you ask a theist, does God exist? Theist says yes, God exists. You ask the say, Atheist, does God exist? Atheist says no, God doesn't exist. Now, which one is opinion and which one is fact? Personally, I'm Agnostic Atheist but hey, that's just me.

Take the issue of terminations, some call it murder and some (myself included) call it freedom to choose.......which is fact and which is opinion?

Ok, you or others may say Lisbon is good for Ireland......others will argue it isn't or makes no difference.........which is opinion and which is fact? The yes side posters: Yes for Jobs - opinion or fact? Yes for Recovery - opinion or fact? Yes for Europe - opinion or fact? Very often a fact is something you agree with and it's an opinion when you don't. Just like it's propaganda when you don't agree with it and makes perfect sense when you do.....

Anyway, you were saying? 'Cause I'm starting to confuss myself with known knowns and unknown knowns........

vanla sighs

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Something is either true or it's not. You can insist that something is true all you want but that does not make it so

Sam Vimes, see above post for clarification

vanla sighs

crusader9872 wrote: »

The entrance of the UKIP party into the debate on the treaty has virtually guarenteed that it will pass. If that shower of right wing bigots are against it then that is a good enough reason to vote yes as far as i am concerned. And by the way how dare they get involved in an irish debate, this is the party that in there own country are vehemently anti irish

Really, UKIP are anti-Irish? Where's your proof? Not that you really need any if you use my above logic I guess, just as long as you believe it, it's a fact for you And I wouldn't be so sure just yet about the guaranteed to pass part............And you saying "if that shower of right wing bigots are against it then that is a good enough reason to vote yes as far as I'm concerned" Good for you but I don't agree. That is like me saying that because an incompetent Fianna Fail are for it that's good enough reason for me to vote against it....But I'm more logical than that, I have clearly defined reasons as to why I am voting against Lisbon.

ei.sdraob

vanla sighs wrote: »

Really, UKIP are anti-Irish? Where's your proof? .

1. UKIP use Irish flag as beer mat

---

2.

Robert Kilroy-Silk (former UKIP MEP), he referred to Ireland as

“a country peopled by peasants, priests and pixies”.

---

3.
Fred McGlade, Chairman of UKIP North Lancashire Branch, wrote in the letters page of the latest edition of the UKIP journal 'Independence' (page 24, issue number 70, May 2007):

"This so-called "Good Friday" agreement, nothing more than a surrender to the IRA, has led us to the sight of Ian Paisley sitting a few feet from Gerry Adams apparently reacing an agreement over power sharing in the province. This was, in my opinion, pitiful. Adams, as always making a point, wore an Easter Lily commemorating the 1916 subversive hooliganism inflicted on a few back streets of Dublin. He is subtle as a rash or impetigo and considerable nastier.

The referendum to be held at Easter 2016 will see the end of Ulster as we know it and the completion of an act of treachery on the people of Northern Ireland. It now seems nothing stands in the way of the destruction of the lives, culture and beliefs of a group of British subjects whose only crime was loyalty. These are sad times which we will live to regret."

do you need more proof that they hate us and using Irish to further their aims of dismantling the EU

---

4.

making the people of Norther Ireland swear allegiance to the Queen

http://www.ukip.org/media/pdf/constitution.pdf

UKIP fully supports the British Monarchy and its Constitutional role. We oppose disestablishment of
How We Are Governed 5
Church, and believe the Monarch should remain Defender of the Faith. We would restore public oaths of
allegiance to the Monarch not the State, reflecting the constitutional role of the Monarchy in the UK and
the danger of elevating the authority of the government further.

---

5.

UKIP want all Irish and non UK citizens who travel to Northern Ireland or UK to be registered and tracked

UKIP would "put in place border controls so that all non-UK nationals who enter the UK can be registered and tracked on their entry and exit from the country".

/

Tarobot

vanla sighs wrote: »

Actually, I am......as long as I believe my opinion to be in fact, a fact. It doesn't matter if it is or isn't a fact in the eyes of others, all that matters is that I believe it to be. But, you have your our opinion and you're welcome to it just as I have mine.

No, facts do matter. Like the lie on your leaflet about Spain and unemployment. Never mind that a global economic melt-down happened - no you claim it's to do with them voting Yes - a lie.

vanla sighs wrote: »

Really, UKIP are anti-Irish? Where's your proof?

Er..the fact that they called us the land of "priests, peasants and pixies"?

And a more recent piece of evidence is their deceitful leaflet that insults our intelligence.

You really need to get off this "it's all relative" nonsense. Comparing solid facts to a discussion on the existence of God is just ridiculous. You're doing yourself no favours.

Edit: Doh! got there before me!

ei.sdraob

Tarobot wrote: »

And a more recent piece of evidence is their deceitful leaflet that insults our intelligence.

thats on top of the 5 pieces of evidence i posted and referenced



http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62176787&postcount=100

vanla sighs

Tarobot wrote: »

No, facts do matter. Like the lie on your leaflet about Spain and unemployment. Never mind that a global economic melt-down happened - no you claim it's to do with them voting Yes - a lie.


Er..the fact that they called us the land of "priests, peasants and pixies"?

And a more recent piece of evidence is their deceitful leaflet that insults our intelligence.

You really need to get off this "it's all relative" nonsense. Comparing solid facts to a discussion on the existence of God is just ridiculous. You're doing yourself no favours.

Edit: Doh! got there before me!

Ok, lets hypothetically say that what I wrote in my flyer is a lie, I don't believe it is but lets for the sake of argument say it is. Then I'd like you to address the yes sides posters: Yes for Recovery, Jobs, Europe etc....lies too? Or is that it's good for the goose but NOT good for the gander?......

About UKIP whetehr they are anti-Irish or not I honesty couldn't care less. I'm voting No not because of UKIP so it's irrelevant to me whether they are pro-Irish or anti-Irish. I'm not UKIP

vanla sighs

ei.sdraob wrote: »

thats on top of the 5 pieces of evidence i posted and referenced



http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62176787&postcount=100

But listen, it doesn't matter this referedum is about the Lisbon Treaty - not UKIP. It's like me saying, "ok here are 50 things FF has done wrong....so obviously you have to vote No now".....It makes no difference. I'm not UKIP as I've already, just as I'm not COIR or Libertas or anyone else in fact........I'm a private individual expressing my concerns on Lisbon.

Tarobot

vanla sighs wrote: »

Ok, lets hypothetically say that what I wrote in my flyer is a lie, I don't believe it is but lets for the sake of argument say it is. Then I'd like you to address the yes sides posters: Yes for Recovery, Jobs, Europe etc....lies too? Or is that it's good for the goose but NOT good for the gander?......

They are platitudes but not lies. I've already explained one element of the jobs one (obviously linked to recovery) to you.

vanla sighs wrote: »

About UKIP whetehr they are anti-Irish or not I honesty couldn't care less. I'm voting No not because of UKIP so it's irrelevant to me whether they are pro-Irish or anti-Irish. I'm not UKIP

Hmm, it seemed to matter right up until the moment it was proved that they were most definitely anti-Irish...hmmm...

ei.sdraob

vanla sighs wrote: »

Ok, lets hypothetically say that what I wrote in my flyer is a lie, I don't believe it is but lets for the sake of argument say it is. Then I'd like you to address the yes sides posters: Yes for Recovery, Jobs, Europe etc....lies too? Or is that it's good for the goose but NOT good for the gander?......

About UKIP whetehr they are anti-Irish or not I honesty couldn't care less. I'm voting No not because of UKIP so it's irrelevant to me whether they are pro-Irish or anti-Irish. I'm not UKIP

you asked of evidence of UKIPs attitude towards the Irish people

which was provided and referenced


what the cat bit your tongue?

are you gonna try to twist and turn your arguments yet again and avoid tough questions?

and please start providing references to back your opinion

if they are true it wouldnt be too hard, now would it?

ei.sdraob

vanla sighs wrote: »

But listen, it doesn't matter this referedum is about the Lisbon Treaty - not UKIP. It's like me saying, "ok here are 50 things FF has done wrong....so obviously you have to vote No now".....It makes no difference. I'm not UKIP as I've already, just as I'm not COIR or Libertas or anyone else in fact........I'm a private individual expressing my concerns on Lisbon.

then why is a right-wing Nationalist (some would say fascist) party from UK

with no elected representatives in Ireland

campaigning actively in Ireland

your concerns on lisbon have been proven time and time again to be untrue and based on lies

i guess putting spuds in your ears and singing lalala is not conductive to listening


as for FF i hate them, everyone else hates them, and as soon as the greens grow some balls they will be out of government, you also forget the FF were democratically elected by the Irish people, UKIP are not

vanla sighs

Tarobot wrote: »

They are platitudes but not lies. I've already explained one element of the jobs one (obviously linked to recovery) to you.


Hmm, it seemed to matter right up until the moment it was proved that they were most definitely anti-Irish...hmmm...

I disagree. I believe the yes posters I described to be lies. My opinion....you have yours and I have mine and the next Joe Smoe will have his. Lisbon has nothing to do with bringing extra jobs into Ireland or aiding in any recovery. We were part of the EU for over 20 years before we started to see any economic development and growth, we, Ireland got us out of the hole we were in, not the EU. the EU helped, certainly with infrastructural funds etc but it was our ow corporation tax base that swung it for Ireland, along with a few other factors. Mmebership of the EU being one.

I never said it mattered whether UKIP loved the Irish or hated them, and it doesn't. This is a referendum about Lisbon not UKIP.

Tarobot

vanla sighs wrote: »

We were part of the EU for over 20 years before we started to see any economic development and growth, we, Ireland got us out of the hole we were in, not the EU. the EU helped, certainly with infrastructural funds etc but it was our ow corporation tax base that swung it for Ireland, along with a few other factors. Mmebership of the EU being one.

Yes because it takes about that time to get a generation of people through the education system.
The major factors were:
-educated workforce (thanks to the EU)
-English speaking
-access to the EU market (thanks to the EU)
-low corporation tax.
-transfer payments that some years amounted to 4% of our GNP (thanks to the EU)
-structural funds invested in infrastructure, etc (thanks to the EU)
-increased participation of women in the workforce (thanks in large part to the EU)

5 of the 7 major drives behind the Celtic Tiger came from the EU. Are you getting it yet?

vanla sighs

ei.sdraob wrote: »

then why is a right-wing Nationalist (some would say fascist) party from UK

with no elected representatives in Ireland

campaigning actively in Ireland

your concerns on lisbon have been proven time and time again to be untrue and based on lies

i guess putting spuds in your ears and singing lalala is not conductive to listening


as for FF i hate them, everyone else hates them, and as soon as the greens grow some balls they will be out of government, you also forget the FF were democratically elected by the Irish people, UKIP are not

You want to talk about democracy? Ok. The Irish people already rejected the Lisbon Treaty in a free and fair referendum that our sorry excuse for a government invaliadated. And you speak of democracy?........hmmmmm

Why are UKIP campaigning in Ireland? Because they are a constituent member of a EP political grouping. And btw, UKIP per se aren't campaigning, the political grouping they belong to are. As they are perfectly entitled to do. But again, this referendum isn't about UKIP, it's about Lisbon.

ei.sdraob

vanla sighs wrote: »

it was our ow corporation tax base that swung it for Ireland, along with a few other factors
.

SF want to introuduce 20-30% corpo tax, its in their policy

Socialists and Communists want to turn us into another Cuba

Coir have no economic policies, economics dont matter in their vision of Taliban like feudalism

Libertas dont have any polices published still!

vanla sighs wrote: »

Mmebership of the EU being one.
.

UKIP want to withdraw UK from EU and drag us down with them, weve been under British rule before, no thanks

vanla sighs

Tarobot wrote: »

Yes because it takes about that time to get a generation of people through the education system.
The major factors were:
-educated workforce (thanks to the EU)
-English speaking
-access to the EU market (thanks to the EU)
-low corporation tax.
-transfer payments that some years amounted to 4% of our GNP (thanks to the EU)
-structural funds invested in infrastructure, etc (thanks to the EU)
-increased participation of women in the workforce (thanks in large part to the EU)

5 of the 7 major drives behind the Celtic Tiger came from the EU. Are you getting it yet?

But you see I'm not anti-EU, I'm anti-Lisbon....

Tarobot

vanla sighs wrote: »

But you see I'm not anti-EU, I'm anti-Lisbon....

Well then you might try to base your argument that Lisbon is not good for Irish jobs on Lisbon, not on the past.

ei.sdraob

vanla sighs wrote: »

You want to talk about democracy? Ok. The Irish people already rejected the Lisbon Treaty in a free and fair referendum that our sorry excuse for a government invaliadated. And you speak of democracy?........hmmmmm

Why are UKIP campaigning in Ireland? Because they are a constituent member of a EP political grouping. And btw, UKIP per se aren't campaigning, the political grouping they belong to are. As they are perfectly entitled to do. But again, this referendum isn't about UKIP, it's about Lisbon.

weve been thru this

The people voted

The government asked for reasons

The governemtn went to other countries and got us concessions and guarantees (as happened with Dutch and French)

We are being asked to vote on Treaty + Guarantees


that my friend is democracy at work, in your world view voting is undemocratic, now thats fascism!


since when is voting undemocratic?

vanla sighs wrote: »

Why are UKIP campaigning in Ireland? Because they are a constituent member of a EP political grouping. And btw, UKIP per se aren't campaigning, the political grouping they belong to are. As they are perfectly entitled to do. But again, this referendum isn't about UKIP, it's about Lisbon.

The political group they belong to consist almost exclusively of UKIP members > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe_of_Freedom_and_Democracy

and no Irish MEPs or anyone from this country for that matter

vanla sighs

ei.sdraob wrote: »

SF want to introuduce 20-30% corpo tax, its in their policy

Socialists and Communists want to turn us into another Cuba

Coir have no economic policies, economics dont matter in their vision of Taliban like feudalism

Libertas dont have any polices published still!





UKIP want to withdraw UK from EU and drag us down with them, weve been under British rule before, no thanks

But I am not a member of any of the parties you have outlined above. I am a private individual. So whatever their policies, it makes no difference to me. I am voting on the Lisbon Treaty, a treaty mind you that we already rejected.

ei.sdraob

vanla sighs wrote: »

But I am not a member of any of the parties you have outlined above. I am a private individual. So whatever their policies, it makes no difference to me. I am voting on the Lisbon Treaty, a treaty mind you that we already rejected.

and now you are voting

on Lisbon Treaty + Guarantees


comprende?


the policies (or lack of them) matters alot as these Organisations claim to represent the NO side

people need to be aware of what an odd bunch of lunatics are campaigning and spreading lies on the NO side

vanla sighs

ei.sdraob wrote: »

weve been thru this

The people voted

The government asked for reasons

The governemtn went to other countries and got us concessions and guarantees (as happened with Dutch and French)

We are being asked to vote on Treaty + Guarantees


that my friend is democracy at work, in your world view voting is undemocratic, now thats fascism!


since when is voting undemocratic?





The political group they belong to consist almost exclusively of UKIP members > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe_of_Freedom_and_Democracy

and no Irish MEPs

Wrong. When the Dutch and French voted No they were not forced to have another referendum. And again you are wrong, we are not voting on the Lisbon Treaty and some type of guarantees, we are voting on the Lisbon Treaty and if you don't believe me just take a look at the booklet attached to your polling card, it'll tell you very cleary what this referendum is about, Lisbon.......we are voting on the Lisbon Treaty. The exact same treaty the Irish people already rejected.

And no my word view is not fascist, it is democratic. When a government invalidates the free and fair result of a referendum now that is undemocratic.

And whether Freedom and Democracy have 100 Irish MEP's or none it makes no difference.

vanla sighs

Tarobot wrote: »

Well then you might try to base your argument that Lisbon is not good for Irish jobs on Lisbon, not on the past.

Don't get 'cha like?

vanla sighs

ei.sdraob wrote: »

and now you are voting

on Lisbon Treaty + Guarantees


comprende?


the policies (or lack of them) matters alot as these Organisations claim to represent the NO side

people need to be aware of what an odd bunch of lunatics are campaigning and spreading lies on the NO side

Oh, you speak Spanish....how lovely! As I said the policies of the various No groups outside of Lisbon don't matter one little bit.

ei.sdraob

vanla sighs wrote: »

Oh, you speak Spanish....how lovely! As I said the policies of the various No groups outside of Lisbon don't matter one little bit.

it matters when they send bull**** leaflets to every Irish household

Tarobot

vanla sighs wrote: »

Don't get 'cha like?

Your above argument that Lisbon is not good for jobs focused on our ability to create jobs in the past. Lisbon is about the future. So could you please put forward an argument based on the Treaty and the future, not the past?

It's not about jobs vs no jobs, it's about more jobs under Lisbon. Talking about what has already happened does not address the issue.