Bus / Luas crash

rameire

does the luas not have a Black Box,
thus all details of signals and speed will be recorded

BrianD

The Skulls wrote: »

Has just been on the 2fm news at midday, CIE chairman was interviewed; the CCTV footage on the bus shows the bus had a FULL GREEN LIGHT to proceed, so Veolia have some questions to answer. Maybe next time people should wait for the facts to emerge before making accusations. And for the record i was on the Luas in question yesterday but got off at Jervis street. I'm just glad no one has died & wish a speedy recovery to all who are injured.

I don't think Veolia said anything and the general public are entitled to say what they saw (or thought they saw) through any means they choose.

Dublin Bus have themselves pre-empted the investigation so they must be pretty sure of the ground they stand on.

Our man in Havana

rameire wrote: »

does the luas not have a Black Box,
thus all details of signals and speed will be recorded

No such thing sadly. Trams don't have CAWS or ATP.

bg07

I would imagine that there would a garda CCTV camera or one in easons or supermacs etc that would have captured the Luas signal

lostexpectation

its seems like its cie vs veolia today rather then luas vs bus

micawber

Possible that bus began entering junction on green, halted because of either pedestrians or due to garda car coming through on emergency call, and then restarted to clear junction at which stage lights had changed and Luas was coming through?

bazzer

BrianD wrote: »

Dublin Bus have themselves pre-empted the investigation so they must be pretty sure of the ground they stand on.

There are/were separate investigations from Dublin Bus, Veolia and the Gardai, so I can't see how Dublin Bus have pre-empted anything. They have simply released their own findings.

a_ominous

A green light does not give someone right of way or actually mean 'go'.
The driver has to always exercise caution and proceed only if the way is clear. This is to cater for situations where you have signal failures or unusual circumstances.
Rules of the road

I don't know what rules apply in case of Luas but I'd expect that they'd have to obey ROTR as road users.

January

micawber wrote: »

Possible that bus began entering junction on green, halted because of either pedestrians or due to garda car coming through on emergency call, and then restarted to clear junction at which stage lights had changed and Luas was coming through?

But the LUAS just doesn't automatically stop and go of it's own will. The driver has to start and stop it... So if the LUAS did see a bus stopped in the middle of the junction why didn't he break?

LordSutch

lostexpectation wrote: »

its seems like its cie vs veolia today rather then luas vs bus

Or even Tram V Bus > its interesting to see how the word 'Tram' is slowly being dropped (in Ireland).

Just a thought.

I.S.T.

adrieanne__x wrote: »

But the LUAS just doesn't automatically stop and go of it's own will. The driver has to start and stop it... So if the LUAS did see a bus stopped in the middle of the junction why didn't he break?

How can you be so sure there was not a problem with the Luas? Break failure?

Our man in Havana

I don't know what rules apply in case of Luas but I'd expect that they'd have to obey ROTR as road users.

Nope. They drive according to rules laid down by the RPA and The Department of Transport.

bazzer

IrishSpeedTraps wrote: »

How can you be so sure there was not a problem with the Luas? Break failure?

Break what now?

Our man in Havana

I think he means brake failure.

shltter

BrianD wrote: »

I don't think Veolia said anything and the general public are entitled to say what they saw (or thought they saw) through any means they choose.

Dublin Bus have themselves pre-empted the investigation so they must be pretty sure of the ground they stand on.

Of course people are entitled to say what they saw but they are not entitled to just make stuff up.
The chairman of CIE has said he has viewed the video from the bus and the bus driver was on a full green light. So you can be 100% sure that is the case what we don't know is what signal the luas driver had or indeed if there was any fault with the tram.
Speculation that the luas driver is at fault is not helpful the facts will come out eventually.

lisnsooz

I just find it strange that a bus could get hit by a tram on that junction at all (or any vehicle collision). It's notorious for jaywalkers - usually the trams have to crawl though the crossing before picking up speed over the yellow box junction and continuing onto the other side of Abbey St (and that's after they start ringing the bell continuously when passing Penneys).

No doubt both drivers would be keeping eyes peeled for some idiot to run across the road in front of them. Maybe there was some sort of mechanical problem present somewhere. All speculation of course tho...

shltter

a_ominous wrote: »

A green light does not give someone right of way or actually mean 'go'.
The driver has to always exercise caution and proceed only if the way is clear. This is to cater for situations where you have signal failures or unusual circumstances.
Rules of the road

I don't know what rules apply in case of Luas but I'd expect that they'd have to obey ROTR as road users.

No of course it doesn't but you can see from where the bus was hit that the bus didn't drive into anything it was t boned by the tram.

January

IrishSpeedTraps wrote: »

How can you be so sure there was not a problem with the Luas? Break failure?

Brake failure is a possibility, signal failure also what with the testing going on down the Docks at the moment.

G_R

i dont think its fair to blame any one yet, Wait till the various agencies complete their investigations.

BrianD

shltter wrote: »

Of course people are entitled to say what they saw but they are not entitled to just make stuff up.

People are entitled to say what they believe to have seen. There is nothing wrong with this. What they believe to have seen may be conistent or inconsistent with the physical facts. I don't think anybody is making anything up.

The chairman of CIE has said he has viewed the video from the bus and the bus driver was on a full green light. So you can be 100% sure that is the case what we don't know is what signal the luas driver had or indeed if there was any fault with the tram.

And I believe him because he'd have to resign if he got it wrong given that he is very publicly pre-empting any investigation both by his own company and the other parties involved. Interesting that he has seen the video from the bus as I thought this was carted off to a Garda station as evidence. If the video was removed from the bus by DB staff then there are serious questions to be asked here. If the bus had run a red light I doubt we would be hearing about it 'till the official report. Though media reports seem to suggest it was local CCTV coverage which might also include other busses on O'connell St.

Speculation that the luas driver is at fault is not helpful the facts will come out eventually.

It's an open forum about a major public event, people are entitled to reasonably speculate on what may have happened.

micawber

adrieanne__x wrote: »

But the LUAS just doesn't automatically stop and go of it's own will. The driver has to start and stop it... So if the LUAS did see a bus stopped in the middle of the junction why didn't he break?

From what I saw the bus had stopped momentarily a short distance into the junction but a few yards from the luas track. As the Luas crossed into the junction the bus then went forward again. There had been a lot of sirens and garda cars flying down the street moments before.
From past experience on the Luas drivers are usually fairly cautious at that junction due to pedestrians walking out in front of them. Yo will often hear the warning bell at Eason's.
In any event the cctv should show clearly the sequence of events. Having seen the impact I am amazed and relieved that casualties are as low as they have turned out to be.

Red Sleeping Beauty

I can't understand why this investigation will take longer than a week. There's cameras on both vehicles and O'Connell St has to be one of the most heavily covered streets in the country with CCTV. Coupled with what must be 100s and 100s of witnesses this should be wrapped up really quickly.

It surely does look like (from the pictures) that the bus had crossed the junction but stopped just as the luas had moved forward.

shltter

Brian people have clearly been making stuff up a look at this site and others today and yesterday were lies were stated as fact. I should have been clearer speculation in itself is not a problem it is when speculation is stated as fact that it is a problem.

On the video it is not actually a video it is recorded onto a hard drive so the gardai would need DB to download the data for them. Also it is possible that the video John lynch viewed was from a bus behind the incident rather than the bus involved.

BrianD wrote: »

People are entitled to say what they believe to have seen. There is nothing wrong with this. What they believe to have seen may be conistent or inconsistent with the physical facts. I don't think anybody is making anything up.


And I believe him because he'd have to resign if he got it wrong given that he is very publicly pre-empting any investigation both by his own company and the other parties involved. Interesting that he has seen the video from the bus as I thought this was carted off to a Garda station as evidence. If the video was removed from the bus by DB staff then there are serious questions to be asked here. If the bus had run a red light I doubt we would be hearing about it 'till the official report. Though media reports seem to suggest it was local CCTV coverage which might also include other busses on O'connell St.



It's an open forum about a major public event, people are entitled to reasonably speculate on what may have happened.

monument

micawber wrote: »

From past experience on the Luas drivers are usually fairly cautious at that junction due to pedestrians walking out in front of them. Yo will often hear the warning bell at Eason's.

Rightly or wrongly, at that junction, I've seen far more aggression towards pedestrians than I've seen caution. Caution, when driving a tram, bus, or car is not limited to ring a bell or blowing a horn. Real caution means slowing down. That's real safety first.

You will often hear many motorist blowing their horns in the city -- at each other or at pedestrians -- that alone is not a clear sign of caution.

Alan Rouge wrote: »

I can't understand why this investigation will take longer than a week....

Because people at the centre of it are in shock and/or otherwise hurt? Because it better to get take time and get things correct?

Red Sleeping Beauty

r3nu4l wrote: »

Wut? Wow! :eek: So I imagine the unions will now be demanding seat belts...although I'm puzzled as to why they didn't previously?

Luas drivers aren't in a union as far as I know. Something to do with their contract prohibiting it.

monument wrote: »

Rightly or wrongly, at that junction, I've seen far more aggression towards pedestrians than I've seen caution. Caution, when driving a tram, bus, or car is not limited to ring a bell or blowing a horn. Real caution means slowing down. That's real safety first.

You will often hear many motorist blowing their horns in the city -- at each other or at pedestrians -- that alone is not a clear sign of caution.




Because people at the centre of it are in shock and/or otherwise hurt? Because it better to get take time and get things correct?

When there's a crime being investigated, do police not interview people as soon as possible in case any information or facts are lost or forgotten ? They might be shaken and injured but surely you could ask them a few questions ?

rednik

Actually we are members of a union. SIPTU.

shltter

micawber wrote: »

From what I saw the bus had stopped momentarily a short distance into the junction but a few yards from the luas track. As the Luas crossed into the junction the bus then went forward again. There had been a lot of sirens and garda cars flying down the street moments before.
From past experience on the Luas drivers are usually fairly cautious at that junction due to pedestrians walking out in front of them. Yo will often hear the warning bell at Eason's.
In any event the cctv should show clearly the sequence of events. Having seen the impact I am amazed and relieved that casualties are as low as they have turned out to be.

Here is a classic example of speculation stated as fact yesterday he made no mention of lights after CIE state the light was green he posts a speculation oc what might have happened 3 hours later it is stated as what he saw.

micawber

monument wrote: »

Rightly or wrongly, at that junction, I've seen far more aggression towards pedestrians than I've seen caution. Caution, when driving a tram, bus, or car is not limited to ring a bell or blowing a horn. Real caution means slowing down. That's real safety first.

You will often hear many motorist blowing their horns in the city -- at each other or at pedestrians -- that alone is not a clear sign of caution.

Actually my experience is that they do slow down. It is also my experience that as the Luas slows more pedestrians are tempted to dart across in front of it . The bell is more of an admonition than a warning.

shltter

rednik wrote: »

Actually we are members of a union. SIPTU.

Yeah but your contract prohibits you from joining another union.
It's a closed shop deal siptu did for a promise not to strike.

Cathaoirleach

CIE Chairman Dr. John Lynch said CCTV footage clearly showed the bus driver had a green light.

Dr. John Lynch wrote:

Now what can a driver do if he has a green light except go through it?

Proceed with absolute caution. :rolleyes:

Bummer

I heard the garda done the Tram driver for no Tax and Insurance!!!!

rednik

Thats correct and that was the old contract.

mcguiver

Bummer "I heard the garda done the Tram driver for no Tax and Insurance!!!! "

Thats very well thought out joke there, dozens injured. Why dont you go down to the intensive care unit and see what a laugh you get!!
And dont even get me started on the MORONS taking pictures while people were screaming in pain ... real heros there folks.

My thoughts are with the passengers and their families, and all the emergency services that worked hard ysterday.

On a realistic note.... 01 6668000 Store Street Garda Station if you did witness collission, there is a media appeal for all witness tocome forward.

BrianD

shltter wrote: »

Brian people have clearly been making stuff up a look at this site and others today and yesterday were lies were stated as fact. I should have been clearer speculation in itself is not a problem it is when speculation is stated as fact that it is a problem.

I don't see the evidence of this. People seem to stating what they saw or heard or think they heard. None of the stories stated are outlandish. The big issue is the exact timing and sequence of events. A person looks and the light is red, they look away it goes green and the incident occurs. The witness thinks it's still red etc. etc. I don't think anybody would take anything posted on a forum as a statement of fact.

On the video it is not actually a video it is recorded onto a hard drive so the gardai would need DB to download the data for them. Also it is possible that the video John lynch viewed was from a bus behind the incident rather than the bus involved.

What is it recorded onto? Surely this camera recorder setup is fairly standard?

monument

micawber wrote: »

Actually my experience is that they do slow down. It is also my experience that as the Luas slows more pedestrians are tempted to dart across in front of it . The bell is more of an admonition than a warning.

IF safety is really first, that's irrelevant.

Alan Rouge wrote: »

When there's a crime being investigated, do police not interview people as soon as possible in case any information or facts are lost or forgotten ? They might be shaken and injured but surely you could ask them a few questions ?

All may not be in a state to be able to talk.

In any case, looking at everything takes time.

BrianD

mcguiver wrote: »

Bummer "I heard the garda done the Tram driver for no Tax and Insurance!!!! "

Thats very well thought out joke there, dozens injured. Why dont you go down to the intensive care unit and see what a laugh you get!!
And dont even get me started on the MORONS taking pictures while people were screaming in pain ... real heros there folks.

My thoughts are with the passengers and their families, and all the emergency services that worked hard ysterday.

On a realistic note.... 01 6668000 Store Street Garda Station if you did witness collission, there is a media appeal for all witness tocome forward.

people are entitled to record any event that happens in public no matter what the gravity of the situation is. They are not morons. They are morons if they interfere with any attempts to assist the casualities or stand and do nothing.

shltter

Cathaoirleach wrote: »

CIE Chairman Dr. John Lynch said CCTV footage clearly showed the bus driver had a green light.



Proceed with absolute caution. :rolleyes:

You can roll your eyes as much as you like but there is no evidence to suggest the driver did not proceed with caution. Perhaps you need to try and understand what proceed with caution means here is a clue it doesn't mean if you get hit in the junction it is still your fault.

shltter

BrianD wrote: »

I don't see the evidence of this. People seem to stating what they saw or heard or think they heard. None of the stories stated are outlandish. The big issue is the exact timing and sequence of events. A person looks and the light is red, they look away it goes green and the incident occurs. The witness thinks it's still red etc. etc. I don't think anybody would take anything posted on a forum as a statement of fact.



What is it recorded onto? Surely this camera recorder setup is fairly standard?

Read micawbers posts just as an example of speculation turning into fact.

Others are people saying the bus driver admitted driving through a red light that is a bare faced lie.

It's not unusual in events like this people want to be involved and also allow their bias to take over so they speculate then turn it to fact.


It is recorded onto a hard drive of course the gardai could download it quicker to get db to do it for you.

DWCommuter

parsi wrote: »

What a crass comment.

Perhaps you'd care to explain to me Parsi, how my comment is stupid and insensitive or "crass" as you have decided to put it.

And as for you Dereko1969, what's your problem with my comment? Care to elaborate? All this "axe to grind" bull**** gave me a good laugh. Seems you've a bigger one to grind with me.:D

Judgement Day

Relax Derek - if you think things are getting abusive here trying sticking your nose into the Lisbon debate on the Politics forum - I did and nearly got my head taken off for speaking my mind.

parsi

DWCommuter wrote: »

Perhaps you'd care to explain to me Parsi, how my comment is stupid and insensitive or "crass" as you have decided to put it.

Did I mention "stupid and insensitive" ? No.

It's crass because for whatever reasons you've decided that there won't be accountability. Straight-off, knee-jerk, first-thought.

There was plenty accountability after the Navan incident.

Not so much maybe regarding the unlicensed minibus which lost its axle.

This forum seems to be littered with blinkered Anti-CIE zealots and blinkered pro-CIE zealots all of whom have to twist every incident to fit their weltanschauung.

BrianD

shltter wrote: »

Read micawbers posts just as an example of speculation turning into fact.

Others are people saying the bus driver admitted driving through a red light that is a bare faced lie.

It's not unusual in events like this people want to be involved and also allow their bias to take over so they speculate then turn it to fact.
.

I've read micawbers post and unless he has another post elsewhere it's perfectly reasonable. Assuming he was a witness, he is only relating what he or she saw. There is nowhere that he makes this a factual account of what happened or a matter of fact, just his version of events as he/she saw them. The stuff about the tram slowing down and ringing bell is not unusual at that junction. I believe that I have also seen traffic lights change to green as a tram was traversing the street. Somebody may tell me that this is impossible but I believe to have seen it.

I haven't read anywhere else (online or offline) that the bus driver admitted to anything and if I did one would find it hard to believe that in Ireland that somebody would admit liability.

Listening to the chairman of CIE wouldn;t exactly inspire me. The words "fairly sure" isn't exactly a definite statement of what actually happened. Having said, that he'd a brave man to go public with this so early so he must be satisfied with their version of events.

micawber

monument wrote: »

IF safety is really first, that's irrelevant.

What's irrelevant? That the tram slows down because people walk on the track? That the driver rings a bell to remind people that they are walking in front of a tram?

DWCommuter

parsi wrote: »

Did I mention "stupid and insensitive" ? No.

It's crass because for whatever reasons you've decided that there won't be accountability. Straight-off, knee-jerk, first-thought.

There was plenty accountability after the Navan incident.

Not so much maybe regarding the unlicensed minibus which lost its axle.

This forum seems to be littered with blinkered Anti-CIE zealots and blinkered pro-CIE zealots all of whom have to twist every incident to fit their weltanschauung.

You didn't mention the words Stupid or Insensitive but they are by definition meanings for the word "crass" hence my use of them.

I don't do "straight off, knee jerk, first thought" reactions and my stance on CIE is irrelevent.

I believe that accountability is very much lacking in many areas of Irish society. Our transport history in particular, is littered with examples of calamities where not one political or managerial scalp was taken.

HonalD

Who's responsible for the signals? Is it DCC? What if there was a conflict i.e. green for buses and "go" for trams? any thoughts?

Cicero

my first piece of advice from my driving instructor many years ago- accidents don't happen- they're caused!

Interested to see the final report on this, regardless of what is currently being claimed- it effects everyone who either drives or uses public transport in terms of their safety - considering that drivers of both buses and trams would be trained to a good standard, I would be very interested to know what procedures were not adhered to, or what new procedures need to be brought in- best wishes to all involved and hope you are recovering well

lncarosello

Here is a video I shot 45 minutes after the accident.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pogZaFir3X8

Victor

http://www.garda.ie/PressReleases/Default.aspx

Witness Appeal - Luas/Bus Crash on O'Connell Street, Dublin on the 16/9/09.

Anyone who was in the area of O’Connell Street Lower and Abbey Street junction between 2.50 p.m. and 3.15 p.m.

Gardai are appealing for witnesses to collision on O’Connell Street Lower, between a Luas tram and a Dublin Bus about 3.00 p.m. on the 16th of September, to contact them.

They would like to speak to anyone who was in the area of O’Connell Street Lower and Abbey Street junction between 2.50 p.m. and 3.15 p.m.

Gardai also believe that a number of passengers of the bus and the Luas may have left the scene before emergency services arrived and we would like them to contact us.

Anyone with any information is asked to contact Store Street Garda station on 01 666 8000.

Garda Press Office
17th September 2009.

spongeman

Dublin bus should have kept their gobs shut until the enquiry is complete.

The lights could have been faulty?

AlekSmart

Perhaps the most interesting spin-off from this accident is the continuing questionability of Dublin Bus routing so many services through O Connell St.

Yet again,this unhealthy fascination with OC St results in chaos for the entire city bus network.
It need not be so.

Interestingly enough the proximity of such a serious accident did nothing to prevent the Dualway City Tour operation from continuing with its lunatic practice of Parking an Open Top double deck directly on the junction of O Connell St and Sackville Place where it sits waiting for the inevitable serious accident which it will cause.

Traffic proceeding along O Connell St has its view of Traffic emerging from Sackville Place obscured and vice versa.
Pedestrians crossing O Connell St ditto.

The Bus in question sits well within the 5 Metre Safety Zone required by the Road Traffic Act and is even held there by a static Supervisor apparently designated to perform this duty.

The REALLY scary bit is that this parked Bus also interferes with an approaching drivers view of both Crossing Trams and Pedestrians and forces other traffic to assume undesirable positions to turn left into Abbey St.

Any attempts to advise the Dualway drivers usually results in a shouting match so I long ago ceased that.
What is worrying however is the gulf between the Garda Traffic Corps members,who will take no oul nonsense and move these chancers and the ordinary beat Gardai,who appear not to be unduly concerned at the quite obvious potential for serious mayhem.

The official situation is that both Dublin Bus and Dualway City Tour operations each have ONE stop on O Connell St.
Dualway have theirs at the Savoy Cinema.
Dublin Bus have theirs at Abbey St jct.

However Dualway appear to believe it requires a second stop on commercial grounds and therefore simply picked this highly dangerous site to display it`s corporate preference for Profit before Public Safety

O Connell St has since it`s expensive makeover been transformed into one VERY dangerous place for Humans,either on foot,cycle or in vehicles.

It`s long past time for ALL of the major vehicular users of the street to be called in and ORDERED to clean-up their act.