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Bus / Luas crash

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135

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    #62
    I.S.T.
    Registered Users Posts: 893 ✭✭✭I.S.T.


    adrieanne__x wrote: »
    But the LUAS just doesn't automatically stop and go of it's own will. The driver has to start and stop it... So if the LUAS did see a bus stopped in the middle of the junction why didn't he break?

    How can you be so sure there was not a problem with the Luas? Break failure?


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    #63
    Our man in Havana
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,476 ✭✭✭✭Our man in Havana


    I don't know what rules apply in case of Luas but I'd expect that they'd have to obey ROTR as road users.
    Nope. They drive according to rules laid down by the RPA and The Department of Transport.


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    #64
    bazzer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 362 ✭✭bazzer


    IrishSpeedTraps wrote: »
    How can you be so sure there was not a problem with the Luas? Break failure?

    Break what now?


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    #65
    Our man in Havana
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,476 ✭✭✭✭Our man in Havana


    I think he means brake failure.


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    #66
    shltter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,841 ✭✭✭shltter


    BrianD wrote: »
    I don't think Veolia said anything and the general public are entitled to say what they saw (or thought they saw) through any means they choose.

    Dublin Bus have themselves pre-empted the investigation so they must be pretty sure of the ground they stand on.

    Of course people are entitled to say what they saw but they are not entitled to just make stuff up.
    The chairman of CIE has said he has viewed the video from the bus and the bus driver was on a full green light. So you can be 100% sure that is the case what we don't know is what signal the luas driver had or indeed if there was any fault with the tram.
    Speculation that the luas driver is at fault is not helpful the facts will come out eventually.


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    #67
    lisnsooz
    Registered Users Posts: 169 ✭✭lisnsooz


    I just find it strange that a bus could get hit by a tram on that junction at all (or any vehicle collision). It's notorious for jaywalkers - usually the trams have to crawl though the crossing before picking up speed over the yellow box junction and continuing onto the other side of Abbey St (and that's after they start ringing the bell continuously when passing Penneys).

    No doubt both drivers would be keeping eyes peeled for some idiot to run across the road in front of them. Maybe there was some sort of mechanical problem present somewhere. All speculation of course tho...


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    #68
    shltter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,841 ✭✭✭shltter


    a_ominous wrote: »
    A green light does not give someone right of way or actually mean 'go'.
    The driver has to always exercise caution and proceed only if the way is clear. This is to cater for situations where you have signal failures or unusual circumstances.
    Rules of the road

    I don't know what rules apply in case of Luas but I'd expect that they'd have to obey ROTR as road users.

    No of course it doesn't but you can see from where the bus was hit that the bus didn't drive into anything it was t boned by the tram.


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    #69
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    IrishSpeedTraps wrote: »
    How can you be so sure there was not a problem with the Luas? Break failure?

    Brake failure is a possibility, signal failure also what with the testing going on down the Docks at the moment.


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    #70
    G_R
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 5,028 Mod ✭✭✭✭G_R


    i dont think its fair to blame any one yet, Wait till the various agencies complete their investigations.


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    #71
    BrianD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,221 ✭✭✭BrianD


    shltter wrote: »
    Of course people are entitled to say what they saw but they are not entitled to just make stuff up.

    People are entitled to say what they believe to have seen. There is nothing wrong with this. What they believe to have seen may be conistent or inconsistent with the physical facts. I don't think anybody is making anything up.
    The chairman of CIE has said he has viewed the video from the bus and the bus driver was on a full green light. So you can be 100% sure that is the case what we don't know is what signal the luas driver had or indeed if there was any fault with the tram.
    And I believe him because he'd have to resign if he got it wrong given that he is very publicly pre-empting any investigation both by his own company and the other parties involved. Interesting that he has seen the video from the bus as I thought this was carted off to a Garda station as evidence. If the video was removed from the bus by DB staff then there are serious questions to be asked here. If the bus had run a red light I doubt we would be hearing about it 'till the official report. Though media reports seem to suggest it was local CCTV coverage which might also include other busses on O'connell St.
    Speculation that the luas driver is at fault is not helpful the facts will come out eventually.

    It's an open forum about a major public event, people are entitled to reasonably speculate on what may have happened.


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    #72
    micawber
    Registered Users Posts: 115 ✭✭micawber


    adrieanne__x wrote: »
    But the LUAS just doesn't automatically stop and go of it's own will. The driver has to start and stop it... So if the LUAS did see a bus stopped in the middle of the junction why didn't he break?
    From what I saw the bus had stopped momentarily a short distance into the junction but a few yards from the luas track. As the Luas crossed into the junction the bus then went forward again. There had been a lot of sirens and garda cars flying down the street moments before.
    From past experience on the Luas drivers are usually fairly cautious at that junction due to pedestrians walking out in front of them. Yo will often hear the warning bell at Eason's.
    In any event the cctv should show clearly the sequence of events. Having seen the impact I am amazed and relieved that casualties are as low as they have turned out to be.


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    #73
    Red Sleeping Beauty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,443 ✭✭✭Red Sleeping Beauty


    I can't understand why this investigation will take longer than a week. There's cameras on both vehicles and O'Connell St has to be one of the most heavily covered streets in the country with CCTV. Coupled with what must be 100s and 100s of witnesses this should be wrapped up really quickly.

    It surely does look like (from the pictures) that the bus had crossed the junction but stopped just as the luas had moved forward.


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    #74
    shltter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,841 ✭✭✭shltter


    Brian people have clearly been making stuff up a look at this site and others today and yesterday were lies were stated as fact. I should have been clearer speculation in itself is not a problem it is when speculation is stated as fact that it is a problem.

    On the video it is not actually a video it is recorded onto a hard drive so the gardai would need DB to download the data for them. Also it is possible that the video John lynch viewed was from a bus behind the incident rather than the bus involved.



    BrianD wrote: »
    People are entitled to say what they believe to have seen. There is nothing wrong with this. What they believe to have seen may be conistent or inconsistent with the physical facts. I don't think anybody is making anything up.


    And I believe him because he'd have to resign if he got it wrong given that he is very publicly pre-empting any investigation both by his own company and the other parties involved. Interesting that he has seen the video from the bus as I thought this was carted off to a Garda station as evidence. If the video was removed from the bus by DB staff then there are serious questions to be asked here. If the bus had run a red light I doubt we would be hearing about it 'till the official report. Though media reports seem to suggest it was local CCTV coverage which might also include other busses on O'connell St.



    It's an open forum about a major public event, people are entitled to reasonably speculate on what may have happened.


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    #75
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,080 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    micawber wrote: »
    From past experience on the Luas drivers are usually fairly cautious at that junction due to pedestrians walking out in front of them. Yo will often hear the warning bell at Eason's.

    Rightly or wrongly, at that junction, I've seen far more aggression towards pedestrians than I've seen caution. Caution, when driving a tram, bus, or car is not limited to ring a bell or blowing a horn. Real caution means slowing down. That's real safety first.

    You will often hear many motorist blowing their horns in the city -- at each other or at pedestrians -- that alone is not a clear sign of caution.

    Alan Rouge wrote: »
    I can't understand why this investigation will take longer than a week....

    Because people at the centre of it are in shock and/or otherwise hurt? Because it better to get take time and get things correct?


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    #76
    Red Sleeping Beauty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,443 ✭✭✭Red Sleeping Beauty


    r3nu4l wrote: »
    Wut? Wow! :eek: So I imagine the unions will now be demanding seat belts...although I'm puzzled as to why they didn't previously?

    Luas drivers aren't in a union as far as I know. Something to do with their contract prohibiting it.

    monument wrote: »
    Rightly or wrongly, at that junction, I've seen far more aggression towards pedestrians than I've seen caution. Caution, when driving a tram, bus, or car is not limited to ring a bell or blowing a horn. Real caution means slowing down. That's real safety first.

    You will often hear many motorist blowing their horns in the city -- at each other or at pedestrians -- that alone is not a clear sign of caution.




    Because people at the centre of it are in shock and/or otherwise hurt? Because it better to get take time and get things correct?


    When there's a crime being investigated, do police not interview people as soon as possible in case any information or facts are lost or forgotten ? They might be shaken and injured but surely you could ask them a few questions ?


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    #77
    rednik
    Registered Users Posts: 5,159 ✭✭✭rednik


    Actually we are members of a union. SIPTU.


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    #78
    shltter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,841 ✭✭✭shltter


    micawber wrote: »
    From what I saw the bus had stopped momentarily a short distance into the junction but a few yards from the luas track. As the Luas crossed into the junction the bus then went forward again. There had been a lot of sirens and garda cars flying down the street moments before.
    From past experience on the Luas drivers are usually fairly cautious at that junction due to pedestrians walking out in front of them. Yo will often hear the warning bell at Eason's.
    In any event the cctv should show clearly the sequence of events. Having seen the impact I am amazed and relieved that casualties are as low as they have turned out to be.

    Here is a classic example of speculation stated as fact yesterday he made no mention of lights after CIE state the light was green he posts a speculation oc what might have happened 3 hours later it is stated as what he saw.


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    #79
    micawber
    Registered Users Posts: 115 ✭✭micawber


    monument wrote: »
    Rightly or wrongly, at that junction, I've seen far more aggression towards pedestrians than I've seen caution. Caution, when driving a tram, bus, or car is not limited to ring a bell or blowing a horn. Real caution means slowing down. That's real safety first.

    You will often hear many motorist blowing their horns in the city -- at each other or at pedestrians -- that alone is not a clear sign of caution.
    Actually my experience is that they do slow down. It is also my experience that as the Luas slows more pedestrians are tempted to dart across in front of it . The bell is more of an admonition than a warning.


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    #80
    shltter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,841 ✭✭✭shltter


    rednik wrote: »
    Actually we are members of a union. SIPTU.

    Yeah but your contract prohibits you from joining another union.
    It's a closed shop deal siptu did for a promise not to strike.


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    #81
    Cathaoirleach
    Closed Accounts Posts: 701 ✭✭✭Cathaoirleach


    CIE Chairman Dr. John Lynch said CCTV footage clearly showed the bus driver had a green light.
    Dr. John Lynch wrote:
    Now what can a driver do if he has a green light except go through it?

    Proceed with absolute caution. :rolleyes:


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    #82
    Bummer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 153 ✭✭Bummer


    I heard the garda done the Tram driver for no Tax and Insurance!!!!


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    #83
    rednik
    Registered Users Posts: 5,159 ✭✭✭rednik


    Thats correct and that was the old contract.


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    #84
    mcguiver
    Closed Accounts Posts: 627 ✭✭✭mcguiver


    Bummer "I heard the garda done the Tram driver for no Tax and Insurance!!!! "

    Thats very well thought out joke there, dozens injured. Why dont you go down to the intensive care unit and see what a laugh you get!!
    And dont even get me started on the MORONS taking pictures while people were screaming in pain ... real heros there folks.

    My thoughts are with the passengers and their families, and all the emergency services that worked hard ysterday.

    On a realistic note.... 01 6668000 Store Street Garda Station if you did witness collission, there is a media appeal for all witness tocome forward.


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    #85
    BrianD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,221 ✭✭✭BrianD


    shltter wrote: »
    Brian people have clearly been making stuff up a look at this site and others today and yesterday were lies were stated as fact. I should have been clearer speculation in itself is not a problem it is when speculation is stated as fact that it is a problem.

    I don't see the evidence of this. People seem to stating what they saw or heard or think they heard. None of the stories stated are outlandish. The big issue is the exact timing and sequence of events. A person looks and the light is red, they look away it goes green and the incident occurs. The witness thinks it's still red etc. etc. I don't think anybody would take anything posted on a forum as a statement of fact.
    On the video it is not actually a video it is recorded onto a hard drive so the gardai would need DB to download the data for them. Also it is possible that the video John lynch viewed was from a bus behind the incident rather than the bus involved.

    What is it recorded onto? Surely this camera recorder setup is fairly standard?


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    #86
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,080 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    micawber wrote: »
    Actually my experience is that they do slow down. It is also my experience that as the Luas slows more pedestrians are tempted to dart across in front of it . The bell is more of an admonition than a warning.

    IF safety is really first, that's irrelevant.

    Alan Rouge wrote: »
    When there's a crime being investigated, do police not interview people as soon as possible in case any information or facts are lost or forgotten ? They might be shaken and injured but surely you could ask them a few questions ?

    All may not be in a state to be able to talk.

    In any case, looking at everything takes time.


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    #87
    BrianD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,221 ✭✭✭BrianD


    mcguiver wrote: »
    Bummer "I heard the garda done the Tram driver for no Tax and Insurance!!!! "

    Thats very well thought out joke there, dozens injured. Why dont you go down to the intensive care unit and see what a laugh you get!!
    And dont even get me started on the MORONS taking pictures while people were screaming in pain ... real heros there folks.

    My thoughts are with the passengers and their families, and all the emergency services that worked hard ysterday.

    On a realistic note.... 01 6668000 Store Street Garda Station if you did witness collission, there is a media appeal for all witness tocome forward.

    people are entitled to record any event that happens in public no matter what the gravity of the situation is. They are not morons. They are morons if they interfere with any attempts to assist the casualities or stand and do nothing.


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    #88
    shltter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,841 ✭✭✭shltter


    Cathaoirleach wrote: »
    CIE Chairman Dr. John Lynch said CCTV footage clearly showed the bus driver had a green light.



    Proceed with absolute caution. :rolleyes:

    You can roll your eyes as much as you like but there is no evidence to suggest the driver did not proceed with caution. Perhaps you need to try and understand what proceed with caution means here is a clue it doesn't mean if you get hit in the junction it is still your fault.


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    #89
    shltter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,841 ✭✭✭shltter


    BrianD wrote: »
    I don't see the evidence of this. People seem to stating what they saw or heard or think they heard. None of the stories stated are outlandish. The big issue is the exact timing and sequence of events. A person looks and the light is red, they look away it goes green and the incident occurs. The witness thinks it's still red etc. etc. I don't think anybody would take anything posted on a forum as a statement of fact.



    What is it recorded onto? Surely this camera recorder setup is fairly standard?


    Read micawbers posts just as an example of speculation turning into fact.

    Others are people saying the bus driver admitted driving through a red light that is a bare faced lie.

    It's not unusual in events like this people want to be involved and also allow their bias to take over so they speculate then turn it to fact.


    It is recorded onto a hard drive of course the gardai could download it quicker to get db to do it for you.


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    #90
    DWCommuter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    parsi wrote: »
    What a crass comment.

    Perhaps you'd care to explain to me Parsi, how my comment is stupid and insensitive or "crass" as you have decided to put it.

    And as for you Dereko1969, what's your problem with my comment? Care to elaborate? All this "axe to grind" bull**** gave me a good laugh. Seems you've a bigger one to grind with me.:D


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    #91
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    Relax Derek - if you think things are getting abusive here trying sticking your nose into the Lisbon debate on the Politics forum - I did and nearly got my head taken off for speaking my mind. :D


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