Bus / Luas crash

AlekSmart

I think it is one street that buses and cars should not have priority over pedestrian interests. It's not that long ago a truck mounted the pavement at the spire either, so I think it should be a very low speedlimit in the area

I believe IIMII has perhaps inadvertently identified the core of the issue.

Yet again it comes down to Fudge.

At one point prior to the commencement of the O Connell St Integrated Area Plan many of us were full sure that O C St was to become a pedestrianized "boulevarde" in the best French tradition with loadsa room for pavement café`s and even café-bars (Remember THAT little brush with European traditions ?).

Well after a long and painful gestation what we eventually got was a street that is neither fish.....nor fowl....Its sorta,kinda pedestrianized innit..?

There`s loadsa kinda sorta pavement that on closer inspection is,in fact a fully functional roadway...for car`s,trucks...(anybody ever watch the Articulated Trucks REVERSING into Princes Street of an evening ?),motyorcycles and a variety of other wheeled contrivances.

There`s pedestrian crossing points with barely visible markings to provide those folks with a guide as to where to actually cross.

There`s a massive architechtural feature (The Spire) designed to draw the eye skywards and implanted...where...? Yes Gay... where better to divert a crossing pedestrians attention than on a....pedestrian crossing ...!!!

Then we have the Taxi-Rank

...ah yes Gay,Joe,Pat,Marian,Gerry......the Taxi-Rank...which naturally enough,this being Ireland,was never supposed to be there after the makeover...but Mirabelle Dictu ! mysteriously reappears after a well known North Side Taxiholic politican becomes a Junior Minister for Transport.....anybody ever notice the "Vote for Ivor Callelly" stickers adorning large numbers of Taxi-Cab`s last time round ????

In short O Connell Street is a dogs dinner,a place which was at it`s best under the dastardly Imperialists and whose original makeover artist, Luke Gardiner at least had a singular vision which he developed in the original Gardiners Mall.

Most of what has been done since the 1920`s has been to emasculate the street into the existance it currently leads...a wee bit of everything...much of nothing,even,at one point having to be reclassified due to the NRA`s reluctance to slap a 30KmH limit on a National Primary route....:rolleyes:

So with this in mind lets await the Official Report(s) and even better,their recommendations....one of which is BOUND to be a further lengthening of the Pedestrian Phase of all OC St Trafic Signal arrays.....Which MIGHT just be enough to force Dublin Bus to at least buy a map and look at some of the other Streets with NO public bus service running along them ....( anybody live down Bolton St way....??)

However this particular incident....

.It's not that long ago a truck mounted the pavement at the spire either, so I think it should be a very low speedlimit in the area

.....

.....involved a Truck Driver who took seriously ill at the wheel of his vehicle (Also a possibility in this scenario) so all non-physical limits were rendered useless...yet another accident that COULD have been much worse.

The bare fact is that O Connell Street does not now know what function it performs, and until some (Any) Authority actually makes a decision on what that function is,we will see more accidents/incidents caused by indecision and fudgery !

one2one

Some images of the scene after the collision: http://www.flickr.com/photos/onetwoone/

HonalD

Nice pics

I.S.T.

Are there any photos of the tram being removed? How did they get it back to the depot?

BrianD

IrishSpeedTraps wrote: »

Are there any photos of the tram being removed? How did they get it back to the depot?

I believe it was driven back to the Red Cow depot in the usual way. The cab at the other end would be operational and failing that another tram could tow it.

I.S.T.

BrianD wrote: »

I believe it was driven back to the Red Cow depot in the usual way. The cab at the other end would be operational and failing that another tram could tow it.

I thought the wheels would be damaged due to the derailment which could in turn damage the track.

MiniD

It's now over a month since this accident. From all the different investigations which were launched, are we any nearer to finding out what caused the incident?

robbie_998

MiniD wrote: »

It's now over a month since this accident. From all the different investigations which were launched, are we any nearer to finding out what caused the incident?

Gardi - still waiting
Luas - still waiting
Dublin Bus - still waiting
CIE - still waiting

BrianD

IrishSpeedTraps wrote: »

I thought the wheels would be damaged due to the derailment which could in turn damage the track.

I'd imagine the running gear is very robust as all it did was hop out of the groove with the impact. I would suspect that tram tracks on streets are stronger than rail as it is a groove that has reinforcement of the street surface on either side.

I read an article that the most damage was to the overhead cables oddly enough. Perhaps the gizmo that conducts the power got snarled in the overhead cables.

Robbie_998 wrote:

Dublin Bus - still waiting

Did the chairman of CIE not announce the findings of their report the next day? ;-)

KC61

No one will be in a position to reveal their findings until after the gardai complete theirs - so we will have to wait until that happens.

The CIE Chairman stated that the bus had a green light - however he not elaborate beyond that point.

robbie_998

BrianD wrote: »

Did the chairman of CIE not announce the findings of their report the next day? ;-)

only the bus had a green light but that was all really,

again a full report cannot be completed until the bus and luas driver both speak their sides too and find a solution that was accurate to the both of them and also in accordance with CCTV footage or whatever.

congo_90

2 months since last post.
anyone any word on this?

Victor

These things take time.

congo_90

ok just wondering if there was any updates.

AlekSmart

May be of little interest but 4 weeks ago I observed 4 Gardai from the Traffic Corps conducting some form of inquest at 09.30 on a Saturday morning.

Their investigations were of enough import to delay Trams at the junction and involved the use of a Camera as well as much pointing and looking up at various CCTV units dotted about the area.

As Victor said,these things take time,especially here.

BrianD

But you do have to wonder. The Air Corps were able to issue a preliminary report about the PC-9 crash in Galway that resulted in the tragic deaths of two pilots within a couple of weeks of the incident.

On the otherhand, we have a relatively simple collision where there were many witnesses and CCTV footage.

AlekSmart

Indeed BrianD,its almost as if we have the picture but not yet the FRAME to put it in ?

KC61

Indeed BrianD - but there could be a criminal prosecution in this case (I don't know).

Therefore until a file is prepared and the DPP passes verdict we ain't going to hear anything.

Victor

BrianD wrote: »

But you do have to wonder. The Air Corps were able to issue a preliminary report about the PC-9 crash in Galway that resulted in the tragic deaths of two pilots within a couple of weeks of the incident.

Preliminary report, yes. however, its seems to be an open and shut case of human error resulting in controlled flight into terrain. There is no suggestion of mechanical fault. Nobody is likely to be charge in the case.

On the otherhand, we have a relatively simple collision where there were many witnesses and CCTV footage.

And they all need to be examined. CCTV won't cover every angle and there may be a legal issue involved in the bus-Luas. There is possibility of one or more persons or organisations being charged.

Red Sleeping Beauty

I've been in town a few times in the last week or so and on two occasions I saw a Dublin Bus double decker half way into the yellow box the Luas crosses over. Luas drivers were hooting the sh*t out of the horn but sure the bus couldn't move forward or backwards.

dfx-

AlekSmart wrote: »

May be of little interest but 4 weeks ago I observed 4 Gardai from the Traffic Corps conducting some form of inquest at 09.30 on a Saturday morning.

Their investigations were of enough import to delay Trams at the junction and involved the use of a Camera as well as much pointing and looking up at various CCTV units dotted about the area.

As Victor said,these things take time,especially here.

Or they could've been out just to find new ways of delaying traffic..or looking for something to do

Super Sidious

I think I saw them putting up a new camera today just outside supermacs, most likely to do with that junction...

Cookie_Monster

Red Sleeping Beauty wrote: »

I've been in town a few times in the last week or so and on two occasions I saw a Dublin Bus double decker half way into the yellow box the Luas crosses over. Luas drivers were hooting the sh*t out of the horn but sure the bus couldn't move forward or backwards.

Why were there no Operation "go slow" coppers out dealing with that then, this not exactly the kind of thing they're brought in to do?

BrianD

KC61 wrote: »

Indeed BrianD - but there could be a criminal prosecution in this case (I don't know).

Therefore until a file is prepared and the DPP passes verdict we ain't going to hear anything.

As there in theory could be with the example I gave even though it is under the control of the military.

Even if there was a prosecution to arrise out of O'Connell St., the DPP should have had a file weeks ago at this point.

BrianD

Victor wrote: »

Preliminary report, yes. however, its seems to be an open and shut case of human error resulting in controlled flight into terrain. There is no suggestion of mechanical fault. Nobody is likely to be charge in the case.

And they all need to be examined. CCTV won't cover every angle and there may be a legal issue involved in the bus-Luas. There is possibility of one or more persons or organisations being charged.

IN all honesty, the Luas/Bus crash is a very simple open/shut case and it seems to me that one party is refusing to accept the blame. Trial by negotiation.

I would have thought that an aircraft crashing in a remote area, no eye witnesses and no cctv would have been a more complex investigation then a bus and luas colliding in a busy shopping street that has more cctv than big brother could ever have dreamed of.

The only criminal charges that are coming out of this - if any - will be token. That's the track record so far in any accident involving public transportation.

Ham'nd'egger

BrianD wrote: »

IN all honesty, the Luas/Bus crash is a very simple open/shut case and it seems to me that one party is refusing to accept the blame. Trial by negotiation.

And what knowledge have you got to make this statement?

BrianD wrote: »

I would have thought that an aircraft crashing in a remote area, no eye witnesses and no cctv would have been a more complex investigation then a bus and luas colliding in a busy shopping street that has more cctv than big brother could ever have dreamed of.

As mentioned, the plane crash report was a preliminary report. There are different statutory regulations covering air crashes; road accidents rarely will need reports. And again as mentioned, there may be criminal cases pending; cases with numerous witnesses are often more complex to deal with[/quote]

BrianD wrote: »

The only criminal charges that are coming out of this - if any - will be token. That's the track record so far in any accident involving public transportation.

If either driver involved is convicted and lost his licence (and his job), I'd hardly consider that token.

BrianD

Hamndegger wrote: »

And what knowledge have you got to make this statement?

As mentioned, the plane crash report was a preliminary report. There are different statutory regulations covering air crashes; road accidents rarely will need reports. And again as mentioned, there may be criminal cases pending; cases with numerous witnesses are often more complex to deal with

If either driver involved is convicted and lost his licence (and his job), I'd hardly consider that token.

With due respect this is a public board for the public to comment on so whatever knowledge I do or don't have is irrelevant. I am making making a comment as a member of the public. To be frank, this enquiry is taking well to long and is very much overdue. One month after the event would be reasonable for a preliminary report. When I said "trial by negotiation" I meant it in the sense that rarely will any public body or any public servant willingly step up and accept the blame for their actions. There seems be a notion that justice can be evaded by either ignoring it, putting a spin on it or burying it in paperwork that any outcome will be accepted.

If there are criminal charges to be brought where are they?? If it was a crash between two members of the public, criminal charges would have been brought by now. As I said the record of criminal convictions emerging out of public transport imcidents is pretty mimimal. This event happened mid-September. It is far too slow. What's the delay?

KC61

BrianD wrote: »

With due respect this is a public board for the public to comment on so whatever knowledge I do or don't have is irrelevant. I am making making a comment as a member of the public. To be frank, this enquiry is taking well to long and is very much overdue. One month after the event would be reasonable for a preliminary report. When I said "trial by negotiation" I meant it in the sense that rarely will any public body or any public servant willingly step up and accept the blame for their actions. There seems be a notion that justice can be evaded by either ignoring it, putting a spin on it or burying it in paperwork that any outcome will be accepted.

If there are criminal charges to be brought where are they?? If it was a crash between two members of the public, criminal charges would have been brought by now. As I said the record of criminal convictions emerging out of public transport imcidents is pretty mimimal. This event happened mid-September. It is far too slow. What's the delay?

With due respect Briand, when there is a book of evidence to be prepared, it always takes time, and much longer than most people expect. No preliminary report could be issued if there is the possiblilty of criminal charges.

I don't know too many cases where charges are brought that quickly.

shamwari

KC61 wrote: »

With due respect Briand, when there is a book of evidence to be prepared, it always takes time, and much longer than most people expect. No preliminary report could be issued if there is the possiblilty of criminal charges.

I don't know too many cases where charges are brought that quickly.

I agree. The tragic events surrounding the Kentstown bus crash is case in point. IIRC, it took around three years for that to get to court