If Lisbon 2 = Yes, Is there a method for another Vote?

Ze

If the Lisbon II treaty wins the yes vote I was wondering if there was a method of having another vote?

Is that possible?

Toiletroll

It would be great because it would be

Yes 1 No 1

A draw - so whens the decider?

Mario007

Ze wrote: »

If the Lisbon II treaty wins the yes vote I was wondering if there was a method of having another vote?

Is that possible?

in theory the constitution amendments could be voted on again, if SF were to be in power. the treaty itself as far as i know, could not be reversed once ratified.

oscarBravo

Ze wrote: »

If the Lisbon II treaty wins the yes vote I was wondering if there was a method of having another vote?

Is that possible?

Yes. Elect a government that wants to have another vote.

Ze

oscarBravo wrote: »

Yes. Elect a government that wants to have another vote.

Ah OK. That makes sense

Euro_Kraut

Well the Treaty does introduce a mechanism to allow states to leave the EU completely.

It is likely we would need a referendum were we to do that.

So we could vote Yes to Lisbon and than vote to remove ourselves completely.

Scofflaw

The only mechanism for reversing the ratification is withdrawal from the EU, which would certainly require a referendum. Any part of the Treaty itself can be reversed, of course, although not unilaterally, through negotiating the reversal in a subsequent treaty. For example, Maastricht created the euro as the common currency of the EU - Lisbon drops the idea of the euro as the common currency.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Ze

Scofflaw wrote: »

The only mechanism for reversing the ratification is withdrawal from the EU, which would certainly require a referendum. Any part of the Treaty itself can be reversed, of course, although not unilaterally, through negotiating the reversal in a subsequent treaty. For example, Maastricht created the euro as the common currency of the EU - Lisbon drops the idea of the euro as the common currency.

cordially,
Scofflaw

oh, So we can't vote on it again if it is a yes vote? bar voting on leaving the EU?

:(

Ze

Scofflaw wrote: »

The only mechanism for reversing the ratification is withdrawal from the EU, which would certainly require a referendum. Any part of the Treaty itself can be reversed, of course, although not unilaterally, through negotiating the reversal in a subsequent treaty. For example, Maastricht created the euro as the common currency of the EU - Lisbon drops the idea of the euro as the common currency.

cordially,
Scofflaw

oscarBravo wrote: »

Yes. Elect a government that wants to have another vote.

Is that what you meant bravo? Or can a new Government ask for a vote again?



Simple answer for a simple person please.

Mario007

Ze wrote: »

Is that what you meant bravo? Or can a new Government ask for a vote again?



Simple answer for a simple person please.

as i said the constitutional amendments could be changed in another referendum.

meglome

Ze wrote: »

Is that what you meant bravo? Or can a new Government ask for a vote again?

Simple answer for a simple person please.

All we need to do is the same thing we've been doing since 1973, go to the EU and negotiate the change we'd like for the next treaty.

Ze

meglome wrote: »

All we need to do is the same thing we've been doing since 1973, go to the EU and negotiate the change we'd like for the next treaty.

Forget the next treaty.

Can we vote on this one again?

Simple answers please?

ei.sdraob

Ze wrote: »

oh, So we can't vote on it again if it is a yes vote? bar voting on leaving the EU?

:(

if you want a vote on Ireland's position in EU

1. collect a **** load of signatures

2. start a political campaign and raise alot of fuss in media

3. elect into government parties like SF who would love nothing better than for us to leave the EU



thats how democracy works when it comes to getting "your" policies implemented

comprende?

Ze wrote: »

Forget the next treaty.

Can we vote on this one again?

Simple answers please?

not unless you do all of the above



yet another new member who has no concept of how democracy, this country and EU works

Scofflaw

Ze wrote: »

oh, So we can't vote on it again if it is a yes vote? bar voting on leaving the EU?

:(

Unfortunately, it's a simple question with a complicated answer. The amendment to our Constitution is to allow the government to ratify Lisbon. Once Lisbon has been ratified, the EU treaties are amended by it, and Lisbon 'disappears'.

However, the amendment in our Constitution is an amendment in our Constitution. Ireland is therefore legally free at any point to hold a referendum to remove or alter that amendment. If we elected, let us say, a Sinn Fein government, they are legally entitled to hold such a referendum. If the referendum was successful, the government would no longer hold the permission it had to ratify Lisbon and to be a member of the EU as defined by the Lisbon amendments.

So, from a simple point of view, it's entirely possible to reverse the Lisbon amendment in Bunreacht - all you need is a government that would call a referendum to do so. Once that succeeded, though, what would happen next is anyone's guess. You could argue that it would mean we had left the EU, because there would no longer be any EU to be part of except that defined by the Lisbon amendments. In theory, if the rest of the EU agreed some kind of bridging agreement, we might be able to continue as part of the EU but on slightly different rules. It's extremely unlikely they would all agree to go back to the Nice rules. Those are pretty much the three options - I suspect that deciding between them would be partly a political process and partly a legal one.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Ze

ei.sdraob wrote: »

yet another new member who has no concept of how democracy, this country and EU works

Here before you.

What does that make your point?

for you.

Thank you for your repy Scofflaw, Makes some sense and thought out values.

humanji

Maybe I'm missing this altogether, but if, say Sinn Fein were in power and we voted Yes, then could the government decide to re-run the referendum? As in the opposite of what the current government did, they poll to see the reasons voted Yes and decide that not enough people knew what they were voting on? Is the change made to the constitution the moment a Yes vote has been calculated?

ei.sdraob

humanji wrote: »

Maybe I'm missing this altogether, but if, say Sinn Fein were in power and we voted Yes, then could the government decide to re-run the referendum? As in the opposite of what the current government did, they poll to see the reasons voted Yes and decide that not enough people knew what they were voting on? Is the change made to the constitution the moment a Yes vote has been calculated?

if SF were in government ( :eek: :eek: :eek: :P )

then yes they can call a referendum as per your thinking

Scofflaw

humanji wrote: »

Maybe I'm missing this altogether, but if, say Sinn Fein were in power and we voted Yes, then could the government decide to re-run the referendum? As in the opposite of what the current government did, they poll to see the reasons voted Yes and decide that not enough people knew what they were voting on? Is the change made to the constitution the moment a Yes vote has been calculated?

It would be entirely possible, in that the amendment only says "the government may ratify", not "the government shall ratify". If you think about it, though, there would be no need for Sinn Fein to run the referendum again if it was an unwanted Yes - they could just not ratify. And even that assumes they chose to hold the referendum in the first place - they're not required to do so.

Let's say a Fine Gael/Labour government negotiates the next EU treaty, signs it, but have yet to hold the referendum when their coalition collapses. The next government is composed of Sinn Fein, the SWP and anti-treaty Greens. They don't have to run a referendum at all. They don't have to draw up a referendum Bill, they don't have to pass the referendum Bill - they can simply say "it isn't good enough, we won't ratify". End of story, unless there's another change of government.

cordially,
Scofflaw

meglome

Ze wrote: »

Forget the next treaty.

Can we vote on this one again?

Simple answers please?

Scofflaw has answered your exact question.

I still think our best option would be to do exactly as we have since 1973, just go to the EU and negotiate whatever changes we'd like. The public here decided they'd like to keep our commissioner and the EU agreed to it no problem.

Ze

meglome wrote: »

Scofflaw has answered your exact question.

I still think our best option would be to do exactly as we have since 1973, just go to the EU and negotiate whatever changes we'd like. The public here decided they'd like to keep our commissioner and the EU agreed to it no problem.

So we have to vote out of the EU is what you are saying?

Harsh.

or did you not say that and just spout some point that you had?

teddy_303

Best of 3, or rock, scissors paper! not a brains kind of operation so far!

sink

Ze wrote: »

So we have to vote out of the EU is what you are saying?

Harsh.

or did you not say that and just spout some point that you had?

It seems to me you're looking for a simple one worded answer either 'yes' or 'no' but it is a lot more complicated than that so you are not going to find what you are looking for.

Euro_Kraut

Scofflaw wrote: »

It would be entirely possible, in that the amendment only says "the government may ratify", not "the government shall ratify". If you think about it, though, there would be no need for Sinn Fein to run the referendum again if it was an unwanted Yes - they could just not ratify. And even that assumes they chose to hold the referendum in the first place - they're not required to do so.

I'm not 100% sure of that. I am not expert in this area but from reading the constitution is appears to me like the Govt passes a bill to amend the constitution, it goes to the President, who then signs it upon the being satisfied with the result of the referendum.

Am I reading this all wrong?

AMENDMENT OF THE CONSTITUTION

Article 46

1. Any provision of this Constitution may be amended, whether by way of variation, addition, or repeal, in the manner provided by this Article.

2. Every proposal for an amendment of this Constitution shall be initiated in Dáil Éireann as a Bill, and shall upon having been passed or deemed to have been passed by both Houses of the Oireachtas, be submitted by Referendum to the decision of the people in accordance with the law for the time being in force relating to the Referendum.

3. Every such Bill shall be expressed to be "An Act to amend the Constitution".

4. A Bill containing a proposal or proposals for the amendment of this Constitution shall not contain any other proposal.

5. A Bill containing a proposal for the amendment of this Constitution shall be signed by the President forthwith upon his being satisfied that the provisions of this Article have been complied with in respect thereof and that such proposal has been duly approved by the people in accordance with the provisions of section 1 of Article 47 of this Constitution and shall be duly promulgated by the President as a law.

http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/upload/static/256.htm

Scofflaw

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

I'm not 100% sure of that. I am not expert in this area but from reading the constitution is appears to me like the Govt passes a bill to amend the constitution, it goes to the President, who then signs it upon the being satisfied with the result of the referendum.

Am I reading this all wrong?

http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/upload/static/256.htm

No, I think you're reading that completely correctly, but even so the Bill isn't a Bill to ratify the Treaty, but a Bill to amend the Constitution to give permission to ratify the Treaty. So even though the amendment passes straight into the Constitution once the Referendum result is found to be a Yes, it still doesn't compel the government to ratify - it only gives them permission to do so.

For example, the amendment we're voting on has this:

5° The State may ratify the Treaty of Lisbon amending the Treaty on European Union and the Treaty establishing the European Community, signed at Lisbon on the 13th day of December 2007 (“Treaty of Lisbon”), and may be a member of the European Union established by virtue of that Treaty.

The State may ratify. No requirement to do so.

cordially,
Scofflaw