Manchester united versus Manchester City sun 1.30pm

Vampireskiss

alanmurphy83 wrote: »

I was gonna discuss this but I don't want to ruin a match thread three days before the match but suffice to say this is bollix.

No its not bollox, I mean what is carrick anyway, a creative midfielder or defensive.To me he is a very poor mans alonso, he can play well when the team plays well against poor opposition but when united are up against it he is exposed badly. Compare him to any of the other midfielders at the other top clubs

hes worse than

fabregas
gerard
essien
lampard
ballack
alonso(i know hes gone but he is fresh in the mind)
mascherano
ireland
barry


Actually one that got away from united was Diarra, who was first at chelsea, then arsenal, the porstmouth and now real madrid, united were asleep when they could have snapped him up from portsmouth

Spud83

Vampireskiss wrote: »

No its not bollox, I mean what is carrick anyway, a creative midfielder or defensive.To me he is a very poor mans alonso, he can play well when the team plays well against poor opposition but when united are up against it he is exposed badly. Compare him to any of the other midfielders at the other top clubs

hes worse than




Actually one that got away from united was Diarra, who was first at chelsea, then arsenal, the porstmouth and now real madrid, united were asleep when they could have snapped him up from portsmouth

Dang..

He is a deep lying midfielder, neither overall defensive or overly attacking. Takes the ball of the back four and knits the the attacks together by supporting the strikers.

He is not an attacking midfielder so i will mark a few off your list. Gerrard, Lampard, Ballack, Ireland. He is nothing like any of these so comparisons are pointless.

Fabregas and Essien are better than than Carrick.

Alonso on his day is about the same as Carrick on his day IMO. However over the last three years Carrick has been more consistent.

Mascherano is better defensively but Carrick offers so much more on the ball.

Carrick is better than Barry IMO.

Carrick has been out most consistent midfielder over the last three years. A midfield that won three leagues, and a CL.

As for Diarra he always seemed like a moody ****er.

Instant Karma

alanmurphy83 wrote: »

Carrick is better than Barry IMO.

most definately not.

fortuneg

alanmurphy83 wrote: »

I was gonna discuss this but I don't want to ruin a match thread three days before the match but suffice to say this is bollix.

He certainly isn't my favourite player but please, as Mr. Murphy said, don't ruin this thread with Carrick bashing 3 days before the bloody game!

CHD

alanmurphy83 wrote: »

Dang..

He is a deep lying midfielder, neither overall defensive or overly attacking. Takes the ball of the back four and knits the the attacks together by supporting the strikers.

He is not an attacking midfielder so i will mark a few off your list. Gerrard, Lampard, Ballack, Ireland. He is nothing like any of these so comparisons are pointless.

Fabregas and Essien are better than than Carrick.

Alonso on his day is about the same as Carrick on his day IMO. However over the last three years Carrick has been more consistent.

Mascherano is better defensively but Carrick offers so much more on the ball.

Carrick is better than Barry IMO.

Carrick has been out most consistent midfielder over the last three years. A midfield that won three leagues, and a CL.

As for Diarra he always seemed like a moody ****er.

Alonso > Carrick everytime

Nalz

CHD wrote: »

Alonso > Carrick everytime

Yeah, in most circumstances. Comes to the tackling and the crunch maybe not, but I'd defo rather Alonso in my team. I'd also rather Barry too

Nalz

Vampireskiss wrote: »

united were asleep when they could have snapped him up from portsmouth

Yeah for over 20m, ya mad!? Isn't that what Real paid for him, and I'm guessing there is one place the player would have went to, this isn't championship manager ya know

Pro. F

Very tough game to call this, as usual.

On the 451 v 442 for United, for me it's a question of who is going to play just behind Rooney. Giggs or Berba? It has to be the Bulgarian imo. He did a fantastic job against Spurs whereas when Giggs tried his hand in that role against Arsenal he was useless.

Personally I'd like to see:

Nani Fletcher Anderson Giggs
----Berbatov-Rooney

I think Giggs and Evra on the left looked very good against Spurs. Nani did slightly better than Valencia on Tuesday so he gets rewarded with a start for me. If Anderson isn't pulling his weight then he can be subbed for Valencia and Giggs then goes central.
That's all just what I would like to see. The only thing I would be sure of is Rooney and Fletcher starting and even those I'm not that sure about.

I hope Ireland isn't fully fit for City. He will be the key player for them imo.

I'm hoping for an end-to-end mad scrap of a game. I think that would suit or strengths best and cover up our weaknesses.

I'll go with 2-1 to United. It's wide open though, I'm in no way confident.

On a side note:

alanmurphy83 wrote: »

Carrick has been out most consistent midfielder over the last three years. A midfield that won three leagues, and a CL.

Being the most consistent central midfielder at united in the last few years is not that impressive. Scholes and Giggs struggle to play consecutive games. Anderson is very much a work in progress. Fletcher is courageous and hard working but is very limited technically (although he is still constantly developing, which is impressive). And yet, with that context, Carrick still never managed to establish himself as an ever present in the team. If he had real quality he would have.

Central midfield has been, by far, the weakest part of our team over the last few seasons.

Xavi6

Pro. F wrote: »

Central midfield has been, by far, the weakest part of our team over the last few seasons.

And I think that this is the reason why, even without our strikers, we could nick a win.

Barry, Ireland and De Jong have the ability to destroy any combination of two United put in the middle of the park. They may have to drop Rooney deep to give a dig out and that will suit us as he has been most effective in a more advanced role this season.

NaiveMelodies

Xavi6 wrote: »

And I think that this is the reason why, even without our strikers, we could nick a win.

Barry, Ireland and De Jong have the ability to destroy any combination of two United put in the middle of the park. They may have to drop Rooney deep to give a dig out and that will suit us as he has been most effective in a more advanced role this season.

De Jong and Barry destroying a midfield, twould be a first then..

NaiveMelodies

Pro. F wrote: »

Nani did slightly better than Valencia on Tuesday so he gets rewarded with a start for me.

Agree with everything else you said bar this.. thought Valencia did very well getting on the end of passes and skinning his marker without the final delivery and that Nani was fairly useless except for the assist.

Kirby

only1stevo wrote: »

De Jong and Barry destroying a midfield, twould be a first then..

Barry is more likely to find space and deliver a killer pass than Carrick or Fletcher. I know who I'd rather have...

Pro. F

Xavi6 wrote: »

And I think that this is the reason why, even without our strikers, we could nick a win.

Barry, Ireland and De Jong have the ability to destroy any combination of two United put in the middle of the park. They may have to drop Rooney deep to give a dig out and that will suit us as he has been most effective in a more advanced role this season.

Yeah definite possibility. We'll see anyway. Ya better hope they don't choke...



















CHOKE!

Xavi6

only1stevo wrote: »

De Jong and Barry destroying a midfield, twould be a first then..

Course it would, they've never played together as a partnership before.

You might have a point if they were playing as a two in the middle of the park, but they won't be.

Your selective picking of my post is pointless because they will have a creative influence alongside them in Ireland making it three against two (unless Rooney or someone else drops back).

And Barry is actually quite creative btw.

De Jong - Hold
Barry - Box to box
Ireland - Create/attack

Pro. F

only1stevo wrote: »

Agree with everything else you said bar this.. thought Valencia did very well getting on the end of passes and skinning his marker without the final delivery and that Nani was fairly useless except for the assist.

Yeah you might be right there actually, thinking about it again. And to be fair to Valencia he didn't have much to aim at in the box and their centre backs were looking sharp too. I'll change Nani for Valencia so in my team selection. Not that Fergie cares

RasTa

Is Ireland out then? He is in my FF team . Barry can pick out a pass alright but it's looking like there will be no-one up there to benefit. I don't want to get too cocky as the last time I went to Old Trafford to face a rival I thought we would whoop we lost 4-1

cournioni

RasTa wrote: »

Is Ireland out then? He is in my FF team . Barry can pick out a pass alright but it's looking like there will be no-one up there to benefit. I don't want to get too cocky as the last time I went to Old Trafford to face a rival I thought we would whoop we lost 4-1

Don't jinx us this time!

Am heading over to this one myself. The atmosphere should be good!

NaiveMelodies

Xavi6 wrote: »

Course it would, they've never played together as a partnership before.

You might have a point if they were playing as a two in the middle of the park, but they won't be.

Your selective picking of my post is pointless because they will have a creative influence alongside them in Ireland making it three against two (unless Rooney or someone else drops back).

And Barry is actually quite creative btw.

De Jong - Hold
Barry - Box to box
Ireland - Create/attack

De Jong and Barry will not destroy many midfields in their careers, even alongside the class act that is Ireland.

Dont think we'll need anyone dropping back but will have a park or fletcher on one of the flanks to come in and stave off the threat of Ireland.

Xavi6

RasTa wrote: »

Is Ireland out then?

No

only1stevo wrote: »

De Jong and Barry will not destroy many midfields in their careers, even alongside the class act that is Ireland.

De Jong and Barry is as good a duo as Giggs and whoever. Throw Ireland in and the THREE of them would be better.

I never said a duo of De Jong and Barry along would destroy anyone.

Boggles

Xavi6 wrote: »

No
De Jong and Barry is as good a duo as Giggs and whoever. Throw Ireland in and the THREE of them would be better.

Depends on the day, Giggs and Fletcher made complete shíté of Lampard, Mikel and Ballack last season.

Barry in a similar quality midfield with Villa has been constantly schooled by the United midfield.

Saying the City midfield is better is naive, given they will be up against a combination Sunday whatever it is that has been there and bought the t-shirt.

NaiveMelodies

Xavi6 wrote: »

No



De Jong and Barry is as good a duo as Giggs and whoever. Throw Ireland in and the THREE of them would be better.

That trio will not destroy Uniteds midfield on Sunday.
Your highly overrating De Jong and Barry in my opinion.

SlickRic

Boggles wrote: »

Barry in a similar quality midfield with Villa has been constantly schooled by the United midfield.

um, no.

last season at Old Trafford against Villa United's midfield did not school anyone.

although the sentiments of what you're saying are true enough, in that utd's midfield shouldn't be written off, on paper and form (bar Spurs), City's 3-man midfield looks in better shape.

it's not 'naive' to come to the conclusion that City might have the advantage there.

Boggles

SlickRic wrote: »

um, no.

last season at Old Trafford against Villa United's midfield did not school anyone.

Excellent, remember the match perfectly.

The Villa midfield didn't get a kick, O'Neill employed counter attacking (longish ball) football. Which actually worked a treat.

There midfield was being over run though, so much so he brought on Reo Coker to try and sure it up. IT didn't work.

United had the majority of possession and chances by a long margin, similar to the 0-0 at Villa park.

The 2 matches the season before ended 8-1 to United.

Still wana argue my point?

SlickRic wrote: »

although the sentiments of what you're saying are true enough, in that utd's midfield shouldn't be written off, on paper and form (bar Spurs), City's 3-man midfield looks in better shape.

Nothing has ever been won on paper or shape.

I will always always side with a team that has been there and done it, than a team who has potential or in someones opinion is better.

De Jong - Ireland - Barry

Granted I would take Ireland to turn the United midfield for this game into Fletcher - Carrick - Ireland. Now thats a good midfield.

Mr Alan

Boggles wrote: »

Excellent, remember the match perfectly.

The Villa midfield didn't get a kick, O'Neill employed counter attacking (longish ball) football. Which actually worked a treat.

absolute complete & utter bollox.

Barry was excellent against Utd in Old Trafford incl a wonderful assist for Carews goal.

The end result obviously skewed your memory of the game.

nicklauski

Mr Alan wrote: »

absolute complete & utter bollox.

Barry was excellent against Utd in Old Trafford incl a wonderful assist for Carews goal.

The end result obviously skewed your memory of the game.

That was James Milner.

The end result obviously skewed your memory of the game:D

Edit : My bad. Dont lynch me, it was Barry :o:o:o:o:o:o:o

Kirby

I think that was Milner actually. I could be mistaken but I had him in my fantasy football last season. Unless I'm mistaking it for another game.

Xavi6

Boggles wrote: »

Nothing has ever been won on paper or shape.

Indeed not, but we still like to debate possibilites in advance of a game. The point was made by another poster that City could see the midfield area as a potential weakness for United. I agree with that thought.

Granted I would take Ireland to turn the United midfield for this game into Fletcher - Carrick - Ireland. Now thats a good midfield.

I think Barry is better than both Carrick and Fletcher, and have been of that opinion before he joined City.

Mitch Connor

Barry def set something up in that game. Remember United defending horribly on a switched ball, giving Barry way too much time to turn on to his left foot and pick out a peach of a cross that has also horribly defended.

He did have a good game that day, but Villa's midfield certainly did not have the upper hand in a game that Villa had 30% less of the ball than United.

nicklauski

Kirby wrote: »

I think that was Milner actually. I could be mistaken but I had him in my fantasy football last season. Unless I'm mistaking it for another game.

I thought so too, I was at that game, but had a few pints in me. I checked the highlights after i typed it and it was Barry.
Took the ball on his chest cut inside 2 United players and put in a peach of a ball that Carew buried in the bottom corner.

SlickRic

Boggles wrote: »

Still wana argue my point?

no, because you're talking

Mr Alan wrote: »

absolute complete & utter bollox.

as usual, no credit is given to an opposition at Old Trafford who deploy tactics that effectively nullify Utd's threat. and a big part of that was Barry, as part of a midfield who weren't great at keeping possession but ultimately allowed you to create very little more than Villa (i don't care how many shots you had from distance.)

midfield domination is not all about how much posession you have.

Arsenal are a prime example of this. Just because their midfield is just about as slick as it comes, and generally dominates possession wise, does not automatically mean their midfield has overrun the opposition. a lot of that possession is in non-threatening areas, where teams are happy to have them have the ball.

Barry, added to de Jong and Ireland, have every reason to believe they can match and maybe better whatever midfield United field.

Boggles

Mr Alan wrote: »

absolute complete & utter bollox.

Barry was excellent against Utd in Old Trafford incl a wonderful assist for Carews goal.

The end result obviously skewed your memory of the game.

If you want to bass a midfield performance on assists.

Who got the 3 assits for United that day?

Kirby

SlickRic wrote: »

Barry, added to de Jong and Ireland, have every reason to believe they can match and maybe better whatever midfield United field.

I'd agree with that. Apart from chelsea, I'd argue that City have the best midfield 3 in the league. The fact that Ferguson keeps rotating his lot, leads me to believe that he isn't totally happy with that area and has to make allowances depending on their opponent.

SlickRic

Mitch Connor wrote: »

He did have a good game that day, but Villa's midfield certainly did not have the upper hand in a game that Villa had 30% less of the ball than United.

they certainly didn't, 100% agreed.

however, United certainly did not 'school' them that day as Boggles suggests.

Mitch Connor

Boggles wrote: »

If you want to bass a midfield performance on assists.

Who got the 3 assits for United that day?

Giggs got one, for Macheda's. I can't remember who passed to Ronaldo for his second. His first was a free though, so no assist there.

SlickRic

Boggles wrote: »

If you want to bass a midfield performance on assists.

Who got the 3 assits for United that day?

i don't want to argue for Mr Alan; he's well able to do that himself

but he's not basing everything on assists and you know it.

barry was excellent, inc an assist. read the whole quote you yourself quoted.

A7X

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Giggs got one, for Macheda's. I can't remember who passed to Ronaldo for his second. His first was a free though, so no assist there.

Was the first goal not an indirect free from inside the box? If it was he had to have been passed the ball.

Mitch Connor

A7X wrote: »

Was the first goal not an indirect free from inside the box? If it was he had to have been passed the ball.

indeed it was, touched back from Giggs.

Boggles

Giggs 2, Carrick got the other.

Boggles

SlickRic wrote: »

no, because you're talking

Brilliant, if that was half as funny as your footballing opinions it would be hilarious! :rolleyes:

SlickRic wrote: »

as usual, no credit is given to an opposition at Old Trafford who deploy tactics that effectively nullify Utd's threat.

Sweet Jesus, I said that exact sentance to sum up O'Neills tactics. :mad:

SlickRic wrote: »

and a big part of that was Barry, as part of a midfield who weren't great at keeping possession but ultimately allowed you to create very little more than Villa (i don't care how many shots you had from distance.)

midfield domination is not all about how much posession you have.

So you will disregard eveything that doesn't suit your arguement.

Very Slick as usual.

Boggles

SlickRic wrote: »

i don't want to argue for Mr Alan; he's well able to do that himself

but he's not basing everything on assists and you know it.

barry was excellent, inc an assist. read the whole quote you yourself quoted.

He didn't get a kick at times, can't remember even seen him on the ball in the second half.

Jesus Christ, you'd swear United didn't dominate possession, chances and most importantly win the fooking match the way you are bleeting on.

What about the 8-1 aggregate score the year previous, how was Barry in that?

SlickRic

Boggles wrote: »

Brilliant, if that was half as funny as your footballing opinions it would be hilarious! :rolleyes:

your opinion on my footballing opinions is very important to me, of course.

Boggles wrote: »

Sweet Jesus, I said that exact sentance to sum up O'Neills tactics. :mad:.

yup.

but where as you automatically draw the conclusion that utd overran villa, the truth is somewhat different. villa's game plan was counter attack, as f**king always. it doesn't mean their midfield was overrun, it just means they didn't set out to dominate possession.

Boggles wrote: »

So you will disregard eveything that doesn't suit your arguement.

Very Slick as usual.

nope, not disregarding a thing.

villa had a gameplan that day, which worked a treat, as you've admitted. and part of that was a good midfield performance. different qualities to united's, but good nonetheless.

utd certainly did not 'school' anyone. utd had the slight upper hand, yes, but to say they Villa were schooled is just nonsense.

every utd fan i spoke to that day, and since, has said how fortunate you were to get out of that game with a win. you did not dominate. you wouldn't have been unlucky not to win. you did what champions do; win despite not looking like you would.

and the fact this was the case is as much down to a workhorse display by Villa's midfield than anything; which inc Barry.

roll on sunday.

Xavi6

http://www.sportinglife.com/football/live_feed/story_get.cgi?STORY_NAME=soccer/09/09/18/SOCCER_Man_Utd.html&ID=

FERDINAND DOUBT FOR UNITED

Rio Ferdinand is a major doubt for Manchester United's derby clash with local rivals City at Old Trafford on Sunday.

Ferdinand sat out Tuesday night's Champions League win over Besiktas with a groin injury and Sir Alex Ferguson is not convinced the £29.1million defender will recover in time.

If Ferdinand does miss out, Jonny Evans will retain his place, while Dimitar Berbatov and Darren Fletcher are likely to return as United look to end the Blues' 100 per cent record. Paul Scholes is suspended following his dismissal at Tottenham last weekend.

Mind games from United

Instant Karma

Heres some food for thought.

In the 7 sesons City have been back in the Premier & in the 14 league meetings played, Utd have won 6, City have won 5 and there have been 3 draws.

Instant Karma

Xavi6 wrote: »

http://www.sportinglife.com/football/live_feed/story_get.cgi?STORY_NAME=soccer/09/09/18/SOCCER_Man_Utd.html&ID=



Mind games from United

Do you think Xavi that City are playing at this game too re: strikers?

nicklauski

Mind games or not, I'd be happy enough with Evans starting anyway.

Xavi6

Instant Karma wrote: »

Do you think Xavi that City are playing at this game too re: strikers?

Well I posted earlier in the thread that I think Tevez will be involved at some point. Santa Cruz is rumoured to be training lightly so it's too soon for him.

Robinho, Adebayor and Benjani are definitely out anyway so I think Bellamy will start alone up front.

I'd actually like to see Vladimir Weiss given a run after his recent international performances, including one against Northern Ireland where he caused Jonny Evans all sorts of problems.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMr_Mw9CVIE

Mitch Connor

Read this morning that he came through a full training session yesterday and should be fine for Sunday, assuming nothing else happens.

However, I would say that when United say a player is injured, they usually are.

Mitch Connor

Xavi6 wrote: »

Well I posted earlier in the thread that I think Tevez will be involved at some point. Santa Cruz is rumoured to be training lightly so it's too soon for him.

Robinho, Adebayor and Benjani are definitely out anyway so I think Bellamy will start alone up front.

I'd actually like to see Vladimir Weiss given a run after his recent international performances, including one against Northern Ireland where he caused Jonny Evans all sorts of problems.

If Bellamy starts up top on his own, how will the rest of the attack look? I would assume SWP on the right, but who would be on the left? Is Petrov back and playing?

Nalz

lol at the Aston Villa game comments from both sides. United were poor that day gotta say, and Villa did a good job, but were very very lucky at times. Took there chances on the counter attack. I remember the game well, United missed a good few chances, the two chances Ronaldo had when he shot wide from inside the box, twice. Why am I commenting on this!Different teams!!

Can't wait for it though. Will be there, heres hoping I get a good seat!

Xavi6

Mitch Connor wrote: »

If Bellamy starts up top on his own, how will the rest of the attack look? I would assume SWP on the right, but who would be on the left? Is Petrov back and playing?

Yeah Petrov is back fully fit and came on against Arsenal last week for the last 10 or so.

I'd expect him and SWP on the flanks with Petrov's lack of match fitness meaning Weiss gets a run later on.