Some of what the treaty actually says ....

isocket

In a previous thread I started I was asked to discuss the actual text of the Lisbon Treaty.

Lisbon means -

Less regulation of banks. No control over our interest rates. (Articles 63, 120, 127, 206).

Lisbon is against state aid for jobs -

Much needed state aid to local industry, agriculture & fisheries is illegal under Lisbon. (Articles 126, 127).

Lisbon attacks public services -

Public services, (eg health & education), would be open to competition from private companies (Articles 106, 107).

These are just a few examples of why you really need to think before you vote & I would urge you to vote with a resounding NO.

Scofflaw

Are those Lisbon Article numbers, or consolidated version Article Numbers? Since none of what you claim is contained in the Treaty I've read, I'd prefer not to waste time searching for what's not there in the wrong version.

regards,
Scofflaw

BlitzKrieg

They are articles in the consolidated version of the treaty

but he's taken them from the people's movement website.

And it should be pointed out that most of them already exist in Nice and Lisbon changes nothing in them.

Not all of them though.

If I remember correctly

126 and 127 are identical to their Nice equivilents

as is 106 and 63,

107 has had some changes made to it.


120 is the same aswell and i'll use it as an example

Article 120
(ex Article 98 TEC)
Member States shall conduct their economic policies with a view to contributing to the achievement of
the objectives of the Union, as defined in Article 3 of the Treaty on European Union, and in the context
of the broad guidelines referred to in Article 121(2). The Member States and the Union shall act in accordance with the principle of an open market economy with free competition, favouring an efficient allocation of resources, and in compliance with the principles set out in Article 119.

Article 98
Member States shall conduct their economic policies with a view to contributing to the achievement of
the objectives of the Community, as defined in Article 2, and in the context of the broad guidelines
referred to in Article 99(2). The Member States and the Community shall act in accordance with the
principle of an open market economy with free competition, favouring an efficient allocation of resources, and in compliance with the principles set out in Article 4.

only change are the article numbers. and the word union replaces community

I think 206 might be the only article not from Nice you have quoted.

Oh sorry its article 131, but its been altered enough that I can accept it as a change.

Scofflaw

Dear me - do you have any views of your own, isocket, or are you just here to retail campaign material and mined quotes?

underwhelmed,
Scofflaw

BlitzKrieg

Scofflaw

did i mention I saw Patricia Mckenna last week? And I brought to her attention the same mistake still waiting for an email response on that actually. Had a little notebook with a list of all the articles they named and which ones where from Nice and which ones where new and so on.

She took it and promised to reply with an explanation

I miss my little notebook. OF course the other half of it had all the figures you got on fishing so they might have got annoyed at that


EDIT: Here is the people's movement source thats identical for the most part:
http://www.people.ie/leaflet/lisbon2.pdf

He left out protocol 27 which are actually new in lisbon I believe and article 311 which is different to its Nice version a bit.

Scofflaw

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

Scofflaw

did i mention I saw Patricia Mckenna last week? And I brought to her attention the same mistake still waiting for an email response on that actually. Had a little notebook with a list of all the articles they named and which ones where from Nice and which ones where new and so on.

She took it and promised to reply with an explanation

I miss my little notebook. OF course the other half of it had all the figures you got on fishing so they might have got annoyed at that


EDIT: Here is the people's movement source thats identical for the most part:
http://www.people.ie/leaflet/lisbon2.pdf

He left out protocol 27 which are actually new in lisbon I believe and article 311 which is different to its Nice version a bit.

"Patricia McKenna ate my notebook" shocker!! If she could actually digest the contents it would be worth the loss, though.

cordially,
Scofflaw

BlitzKrieg

in her defence she showed up with the full treaty at the debate which was mighty impressive of her.

EDIT: Back on topic: prior thread on these same article numbers though sadly no one from either side seemed too fussed about the misrepresentation so not much discussion, but I do quote a few more comparisons seeing what the differences were. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055677328

ei.sdraob

isocket wrote: »

Lisbon attacks public services -

Public services, (eg health & education), would be open to competition from private companies (Articles 106, 107).

is that what got Higgins and the Socialists all worked up

isocket

Scofflaw wrote: »

Dear me - do you have any views of your own, isocket, or are you just here to retail campaign material and mined quotes?

underwhelmed,
Scofflaw

You cannot moderate a forum & be on the yes side at the same time, you'll give yourself an ulcer.

For those of you of an open mind -

Reform Treaty summary
The 294 page Reform Treaty, now renamed the Treaty of Lisbon, gives the EU the powers of the 465 page EU
Constitution by amending and adding the missing clauses to the existing five treaties. So it, like them, is
unreadable; you need to read all six treaties together, thousands of pages which includes Maastricht, and see
through its concealment and deception to get the full picture. There will be no more treaties: these six complete the
EU and equal the constitution (which was going to repeal and replace the five treaties with a single document).
Article 1-3, new article 1a: Unlike Britain, the EU nation and its laws are not based on Christianity.
1-4 New article 2. It is the EU's values that count, not the wishes of the people. The state comes first, soviet style.
1a and Article 2.1-6 and the whole treaty make it very clear our new nation will be the European Union, not Britain.
2-2 and 2.3 Our former borders will mean nothing.
2-4 Gives the EU the power to force Britain into the Euro.
3a Puts the EU’s former nations into the same position Soviet satellite states enjoyed.
3a-3 Compels former nations to obey the EU. They shall carry out the EU's tasks, and may not oppose it.
3b-1 Conferral - the EU will not exceed the powers it has taken in the Treaties. Negated by 3b.3:
3b-3 If local powers can better be used by the EU, the EU will use them.
3b-4. Proportionality: The EU will not use more force than necessary to compel us to comply with the Treaties.
Article 6 The EU recognises its own Charter of the EU's Rights of 2007.
6-2 The EU accedes to the EU Convention on Human Rights, but not where it affects the EU's power.
6-3.c Paves the way for The European Council to become independent of Heads of State, and become a politburo.
Article 8. Equality. In glorious Soviet style. And we are forced to accept EU citizenship.
Article 8A-1 to 4 Prepares the way for the abolition of Westminster:
8A-2 Heads of state can be bypassed in favour of "government;" National Parliaments bypassed direct to citizens.
8A-3. Decisions to be taken as close as possible to the citizen. Eurospeak for Regions, not Parliaments.
8A-4. Will be used to abolish our Conservative, Labour and Lib Dem-Parties. Its the old EU constitution I-46-4 word
for word: Political parties to be at the European level. The Madrid conference defined this in 1999 as parties with
voters in 10 or more former nations. Our parties count voters in just one nation. Goodbye to the LibLabCon.
8B-3. The Commission may use consultation. Ballots, elections, referendums or democracy are not to be its way.
8B-4 One million citizens may petition the Commission to implement the glorious EU Treaties. We can only agree,
Soviet style. Old EU constitution clause I-47-4.
9 and 9A Implement EU constitution clauses I-19 to I-27 List of Institutions. Confirms their interest in the Regions.
There are three governing bodies, each with up to 27 members:
9B The European Council is made up of heads of state, or "government" which could be any politician of their
choosing. It meets 4 times a year, and chooses (and can fire) its President for 2.5 years, two terms maximum. He
can be anyone from anywhere but not a head of state; he can fire a Commissioner.
9C The Council of Ministers, now The Council, is senior bureaucrat level; controls laws, the budget and policy.
9D The third level is the Commissioners, 20 people, anyone, from each country, provided (clause 3) he is not anti-
EU. The Commission is the executive, the government or bureaucracy.
These three are politburos where EU politicians choose politicians; there are no elections to positions of power.
Unlike Westminster, the EU Parliament in Brussels, the only elected body, has no executive power; it is a sham.
9E An EU foreign minister shall be appointed, and will be a Vice President of the Commission.
9F The EU courts shall enforce the six EU Treaties and former nations shall comply.
Article 10 Enhanced Cooperation: Former nations may wish to reinforce the EU's integration using any powers
remaining outside the EU's absolute power. If they don't, the Council can enforce enhanced cooperation if former
nations won't cooperate. Clause 3: Only cooperating nations may vote in the council.
10-4 We must obey the acquis communautaire, 170,000 pages of active EU law. (EU regulations millions of pages)
That is the first 26 pages of the 294. The Reform Treaty will create a Soviet politburo style
dictatorship. EU politicians will select our rulers without elections. The EU Parliament in Brussels, the
only elected body, is a sham with no executive power. There are no provisions for elections to
Westminster, which will close. The EU’s 111,000 regulations will control our lives more closely than
were Soviet citizens. Harmonising our laws with the EU over 35 years has given us the laws of a
police state, which the EU will enforce. On the 1st January 2009 the EU will become our nation, and
Britain be abolished as a nation. The Treaty is worse than the Constitution.
For the full Treaty text: eutruth.org.uk/lisbontreaty.pdf

prinz

isocket wrote: »

You cannot moderate a forum & be on the yes side at the same time, you'll give yourself an ulcer.

Don't you mean the NWO and the EU overlords will make him think he has an ulcer?

isocket wrote: »

For those of you of an open mind -
Article 1-3, new article 1a: Unlike Britain, the EU nation and its laws are not based on Christianity.
1-4 New article 2. It is the EU's values that count, not the wishes of the people. The state comes first, soviet style.
1a and Article 2.1-6 and the whole treaty make it very clear our new nation will be the European Union, not Britain.
2-2 and 2.3 Our former borders will mean nothing.
2-4 Gives the EU the power to force Britain into the Euro.
3a Puts the EU’s former nations into the same position Soviet satellite states enjoyed.

Our nation is Britain now? What are the EU's former nations? What a load of rubbish from start to finish.

You started the thread with "What the Treaty actually says", and now you're just copy and pasting crap from the UKIP-mindset, which is just playing to the crowd of Brit skinheads á la BNP

isocket

If the above is true for Britain, it's true for Ireland.

ei.sdraob

isocket wrote: »

If the above is true for Britain, it's true for Ireland.

last i checked on the map we are not Britain

or have red post boxes

or have a queen as a head of state

prinz

isocket wrote: »

If the above is true for Britain, it's true for Ireland.

It's not true for either.

There are no provisions for elections to
Westminster, which will close

Hilarious.

Bogger77

Wait, are you saying that by voting yes, I shut down the British Parliament?
That's it, argument over for me, I'm voting yes, even only to put British politicians on the dole!

marco_polo

Forcing Britain into the Euro, yes please! I am sick of the traditional weak euro exchange rate with sterling. :pac:

BlitzKrieg

no comment on your original points?



I'll get to the new ones after work.

Zynks

isocket wrote: »

Lisbon means -

Less regulation of banks. No control over our interest rates. (Articles 63, 120, 127, 206).

What's new? How can we loose control over interest rates if we don't have it anyway. If you want control over interest rates you should be campaigning to abandon the Euro as a currency....

isocket wrote: »

Lisbon is against state aid for jobs -

You are over simplifying/distorting the issue to the advantage of your views. How would yo feel if the UK started subsidising heavily jobs that killed Irish busineses?

isocket wrote: »

Much needed state aid to local industry, agriculture & fisheries is illegal under Lisbon. (Articles 126, 127).

Businesses must be sustainable. If income is not enough, increase prices. If there is no demand, look for a different job. The EU already provides some help in the form of import duties on non-EU produce....and farmers do get substantial subsidies as far as I remember.

isocket wrote: »

Lisbon attacks public services -

Public services, (eg health & education), would be open to competition from private companies (Articles 106, 107).

Competition against state monopolies? Sounds good to me. Can we start with Aer Rianta and CIE/Dublin Bus?

isocket wrote: »

These are just a few examples of why you really need to think before you vote & I would urge you to vote with a resounding NO.

Sorry, can't agree with you.

And by the way, this suggestion going around that Europe will impose right wing policies is rubbish. France, Scandinavian countries, even Spain are far more left wing and have far better public services/social consciousness than Ireland can even dream about for the next couple of generations.

me-skywalker

NB . I think the Lisbon Treaty should be called waht it is. The Reform Treaty. I think ppl get frightened off by all the treaties gone before but dont realise that this one treaty is one to collaberate all them into one definitive article.


The British Conservatives are pleading with Irish ppl to vote no! The way the see it as a card into Government, they've already stated that should they get into Govrnemnt and the Irish vote no, they will pull out of Lisbon. And we all no after a fresh referendum the already anti-European British will love this.

They want to make a step to force Britain out of the Lisbon Treaty and into their own other circle of European influence which in effect if we vote no will mean we'll be back in this 'outer' circle with the Brits having main power and say in this sphere.

Zynks

Isn't it ironic, the Irish socialists are doing their best to help the UK far right....

me-skywalker

Its strange how our own Nationalist Party could in turn be scaremongering us into the Brits baying hands.

I think that the fact Gerry Adams has stated before he wants Ireland to stop using the € is absolute FACT that he is living in his own special world and I dont care if your anti-europe or extreme nationalist, taking part in the 4 was the best thing that happend to this country. And a pull out of it would further force us into a recession.


We'll have to set sail to china and park up beside them for handouts!