The best thread(s) I've ever read on the Lisbon Treaty(Warning: Very Long)

Hayzer89

prinz wrote: »

Could you show us where it is so? Should be easy to find if it exists

What is "selective democracy" by the way?

Where the government claims they are democratic, until it suits them to change things around, so they get their way.

Lisbon being a perfect example. If I had a dime for every time Cowen and his buddies said that, regardless of the result of the original Lisbon, theres no way that it would be brought to the polls for a second time.

And, funnily enough, a few years later and here we are, back to square one, being lied to and nobody seems to give a f*ck! Just imagine if they got the YES vote originally, I know theres not a single person in here who would say that it would have been sent to the polls for a second round if thats how it had turned out.

That is selective democracy my friend!

prinz

Hayzer89 wrote: »

In if you say ''for jobs'' either, you better hope I never meet you in the street!

...no comment. Great political argument though..:rolleyes:

Hayzer89 wrote: »

Lisbon being a perfect example. If I had a dime for every time Cowen and his buddies said that, regardless of the result of the original Lisbon, theres no way that it would be brought to the polls for a second time.

Did you not see the Supreme Court ruling recently? They could potentially go back again and again as many times as they want. I suppose you could say it's a bit like Mr Ganley saying he wouldn't get involved again...

You see the government want to pass it. Why would they go back to vote again? However if we got a new government made up of anti-Lisbon people, they are perfectly free to hold another vote.

BlitzKrieg

ok

Sadly I dont know much about you, the sort of work you do, your age etc, so I'll put some general ones and hopefully one of them shall link to you hopefully.

judging by your hatred for the *right wing* and the services directive I assume you are somewhat left leaning.

Like I already mentioned the European Parliament has been a constent defence of worker's rights on proposals from the Commission. A yes vote will increase their influence to 95% of the laws passed by the EU.


If you are self employed Lisbon extends the rights provided in article 48 (TFEU) to those who are self employed as well.

Lisbon

Article 48 (ex Article 42 TEC) The European Parliament and the Council shall, acting in accordance with the ordinary legislative procedure, adopt such measures in the field of social security as are necessary to provide freedom of movement for workers; to this end, they shall make arrangements to secure for employed and self-employed migrant workers and their dependants:
(a) aggregation, for the purpose of acquiring and retaining the right to benefit and of calculating the amount of benefit, of all periods taken into account under the laws of the several countries;
(b) payment of benefits to persons resident in the territories of Member States. Where a member of the Council declares that a draft legislative act referred to in the first subparagraph would affect important aspects of its social security system, including its scope, cost or financial structure, or would affect the financial balance of that system, it may request that the matter be referred to the European Council. In that case, the ordinary legislative procedure shall be suspended. After discussion, the European Council shall, within four months of this suspension, either:
(a) refer the draft back to the Council, which shall terminate the suspension of the ordinary legislative procedure; or
(b) take no action or request the Commission to submit a new proposal; in that case, the act originally proposed shall be deemed not to have been adopted.

compare to Nice:

Article 42 The Council shall, acting in accordance with the procedure referred to in Article 251, adopt such measures in the field of social security as are necessary to provide freedom of movement for workers; to this end, it shall make arrangements to secure for migrant workers and their dependants:
(a) aggregation, for the purpose of acquiring and retaining the right to benefit and of calculating the amount of benefit, of all periods taken into account under the laws of the several countries;
(b) payment of benefits to persons resident in the territories of Member States. The Council shall act unanimously throughout the procedure referred to in Article 251.

Then there is the citizen's initiative if you active with your local trade union and knowing that the trade unions across europe are openly working together it is very easy to reach the required one million to propose legaslation directly to the commission. (Yes I know they dont have to implement the legaslation, but they do need to respond to it and justify their response.)

If you are not trade union material this equally applies with religious groups and sporting groups.

Hayzer89

prinz wrote: »

...no comment. Great political argument though..

Stop being such a b!tch and jsut answer the question.



Did you not see the Supreme Court ruling recently? They could potentially go back again and again as many times as they want. I suppose you could say it's a bit like Mr Ganley saying he wouldn't get involved again...

You see the government want to pass it. Why would they go back to vote again? However if we got a new government made up of anti-Lisbon people, they are perfectly free to hold another vote.

Exactly my point! It's so retarded! They get to impose whatever they like pretty much, because if people have to keep putting up with a treaty/law or whatever being repolled, they will eventually just vote in favour to make the government go away. Complete BS!

prinz

Hayzer89 wrote: »

Exactly my point! It's so retarded! They get to impose whatever they like pretty much, because if people have to keep putting up with a treaty/law or whatever being repolled, they will eventually just vote in favour to make the government go away. Complete BS!

..and if Libertas were in power they could keep voting until we voted no. Quick editing on your original post by they way.

Hayzer89

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

ok

Sadly I dont know much about you, the sort of work you do, your age etc, so I'll put some general ones and hopefully one of them shall link to you hopefully.

judging by your hatred for the *right wing* and the services directive I assume you are somewhat left leaning.

Like I already mentioned the European Parliament has been a constent defence of worker's rights on proposals from the Commission. A yes vote will increase their influence to 95% of the laws passed by the EU.


If you are self employed Lisbon extends the rights provided in article 48 (TFEU) to those who are self employed as well.

Lisbon




compare to Nice:



Then there is the citizen's initiative if you active with your local trade union and knowing that the trade unions across europe are openly working together it is very easy to reach the required one million to propose legaslation directly to the commission. (Yes I know they dont have to implement the legaslation, but they do need to respond to it and justify their response.)

If you are not trade union material this equally applies with religious groups and sporting groups.

I am just a second year college student, and employed part time. So they don't really apply to me. Personally, I know we have benefited from the EU up until this point, and with the very idea the EU was based on, the wealthier/ more economisally stable countries help the less developed, less well off countries. We are now classed as one of the wealthier contries, so why give more power to the EU?

The country is ran bad, but it works! I am happy enough with the way thigns are, and even if we vote NO to Lisbon, we are not going to be 'abandoned' or left on the sideline with regards to the EU. We will continue to be active members in the union, with little change.

So as the old saying goes, If it's not broke, don't fix it!

Rb

Hayzer, just give it up, you're clutching at straws now.

Hayzer89

prinz wrote: »

..and if Libertas were in power they could keep voting until we voted no. Quick editing on your original post by they way.

I know, it's so pointless! You're getting the wrong end of the stick here man. I am not representing/don't have favoured parties really. I am merely point out that this system is not democractic, and their are way too many loopholes for the government to get their way, if they really want to.

You seem to think that I am an FF/FG/Labour hater or something?

Hayzer89

Rb wrote: »

Hayzer, just give it up, you're clutching at straws now.

And why would I? So you can have your perfect little thread where those who are in favour of YES are the only ones who are listened to and can post?

Nah, don't think so man. Not going to give you that!

Rb

Hayzer89 wrote: »

And why would I? So you can have your perfect little thread where those who are in favour of YES are the only ones who are listened to and can post?

Nah, don't think so man. Not going to give you that!

How many times do you think your ill-informed rant has been seen and dismissed here over the past few months?

prinz

Hayzer89 wrote: »

We are now classed as one of the wealthier contries, so why give more power to the EU?

We aren't giving substantially more power to the EU. It's a reform treaty, not a give-up-your-sovereignty treaty.

Hayzer89 wrote: »

So as the old saying goes, If it's not broke, don't fix it!

Put it like this, say you have a 5-a-side soccer team and 7 people want to be on your team and playing every match. Two things can happen, (a) you keep playing in a 5-a-side competition but it means some players are losing out, and it's not fair or equal, or (b) you could change the rules of the competition to 7-a-side and everyone gets their spot and everybody is happy. The EU as it is, is not designed for so many members. They need to change the rules to make things easier, fairer, more democratic and more equal to all.

prinz

Hayzer89 wrote: »

I am merely point out that this system is not democractic, and their are way too many loopholes for the government to get their way, if they really want to.

"this system" is our system.It's the Irish system. It has nothing to do with the Lisbon Treaty at all.

Hayzer89

prinz wrote: »

We aren't giving substantially more power to the EU. It's a reform treaty, not a give-up-your-sovereignty treaty.




Put it like this, say you have a 5-a-side soccer team and 7 people want to be on your team and playing every match. Two things can happen, (a) you keep playing in a 5-a-side competition but it means some players are losing out, and it's not fair or equal, or (b) you could change the rules of the competition to 7-a-side and everyone gets their spot and everybody is happy. The EU as it is, is not designed for so many members. They need to change the rules to make things easier, fairer, more democratic and more equal to all.

Why give them any more power? I am happy with what they have right now, and the last thing I want is for the EU to become like the States. That is the system they are largely modeling the EU on and I'd be sickenned if they do. The Lisbon treaty is one of the main steps along the way, and I stand against that.

In using that ''5 a side exam'' personally, I would leave it as a 5 a side match. Tough t!tty for the other two player's. They came last/are worse, and so, should not be as fast to be allowed play. They should prove their worth first!

Hayzer89

Rb wrote: »

How many times do you think your ill-informed rant has been seen and dismissed here over the past few months?

Say what you will. I'm not listening. I ten to avert from bs propaganda.

I am willing to place my life on it that you are in some way majorly benefit from this treaty. Thats why you made this thread, and posted it on boards. Why if the f*ck else would you be ARSED to go to all the trouble you have to point out the ''good'' points of this treaty?

So come off it! You're just as bad as those politicians trying to intimidate people into voting YES. You're scum! Now stop posting!

Hayzer89

prinz wrote: »

"this system" is our system.It's the Irish system. It has nothing to do with the Lisbon Treaty at all.

This is a seperate matter, I know. I was just pointing out how unfair the system is. Probably the wrong thread for it but hey.....

sceptre

Hayzer89 wrote: »

I am just a second year college student, and employed part time. So they don't really apply to me.

Can I assume that you're planning on graduating and getting a job some day, at which point things that don't currently "really apply to you" might start applying to you? Having reached second year, I assume you're at least half-thinking about where and what you're going to be in 35 month's time, which I suspect is a graduate with a full-time job. These things that don't really apply to you are likely to apply to you then.

Just a thought.

Yes, I know I'm Mr Statingthebleedingobvious. But no-one else did.

Hayzer89

sceptre wrote: »

Can I assume that you're planning on graduating and getting a job some day, at which point things that don't currently "really apply to you" might start applying to you? Having reached second year, I assume you're at least half-thinking about where and what you're going to be in 35 month's time, which I suspect is a graduate with a full-time job. These things that don't really apply to you are likely to apply to you then.

Just a thought.

So come on, please tell me how the country is going to fall apart if Lisbon is rejected? I mean there are SOOO many other ways we can be f*cked over, and far faster, like NAMA. If that doesn't work, in comes the IMF (who are fairly certainly going to be coming in) either way to bail us out!

Face it, WE'RE F*CKED, REGARDLESS! That's the harsh, simple truth! No Lisbon treaty will save us. Only threaten to decrease our wages and try make us more like the American system, where, funnily enough, the rich prosper and the poor live in scuabbles!

P.s. I will be an Electronic Engineer. I can leave this sh!thole once I graduate so to be honest, whatever comes of Lisbon won't really apply to me anyway!

Sam Vimes

Hayzer89 wrote: »

So come on, please tell me how the country is going to fall apart if Lisbon is rejected? I mean there are SOOO many other ways we can be f*cked over, and far faster, like NAMA. If that doesn't work, in comes the IMF (who are fairly certainly going to be coming in) either way to bail us out!

Voting no won't necessarily make the country fall apart but that's hardly a reason to say no to it.

Hayzer89 wrote: »

Face it, WE'RE F*CKED, REGARDLESS! That's the harsh, simple truth! No Lisbon treaty will save us. Only threaten to decrease our wages and try make us more like the American system, where, funnily enough, the rich prosper and the poor live in scuabbles!

Firstly the treaty doesn't threaten to decrease our wages, that's just one of many lies going around and secondly, decreasing wages would go quite a long way towards facilitating economic recovery. Ireland is too expensive which is the main reason all those corporations are pulling out

sceptre

Hayzer89 wrote: »

So come on, please tell me how the country is going to fall apart if Lisbon is rejected? I mean there are SOOO many other ways we can be f*cked over, and far faster, like NAMA. If that doesn't work, in comes the IMF (who are fairly certainly going to be coming in) either way to bail us out!

Face it, WE'RE F*CKED, REGARDLESS! That's the harsh, simple truth! No Lisbon treaty will save us. Only threaten to decrease our wages and try make us more like the American system, where, funnily enough, the rich prosper and the poor live in scuabbles!

P.s. I will be an Electronic Engineer. I can leave this sh!thole once I graduate so to be honest, whatever comes of Lisbon won't really apply to me anyway!

Oh I'm a fencesitter. Close enough to the forum's official fence sitter as a matter of fact. I'm the guy who doesn't push you either way but points out how silly it its to imply that anyone said the country would fall apart if the Treaty was either accepted or rejected. For example.

I will point out though that it isn't by any means certain that the IMF are coming, that Lisbon has anything at all do do with wages either indirectly or directly (please, don't believe everything you read on a lamp-post frm either side) and while I don't know what a scuabble is, we're as likely to be living in one as we are in a sand castle so please save a few electrons and stop straw manning the discussion. Especially with me given that I don't really care which way you vote as long as it's an informed vote. Please feel free to read a bit more to be able to make an informed vote - the EU is for electronic engineers as much as it is for those of us who did other things.

So don't expect me to explain why any of the above won't come to pass. I'm not pushing a case so I'd rather you got there by yourself. I'm sure others will step into the breach though and explain it, some of them have been providing clarity for months now with no pay so I reckon they won't stop now.

ei.sdraob

Hayzer89 wrote: »

So come on, please tell me how the country is going to fall apart if Lisbon is rejected? I mean there are SOOO many other ways we can be f*cked over, and far faster, like NAMA. If that doesn't work, in comes the IMF (who are fairly certainly going to be coming in) either way to bail us out!

Face it, WE'RE F*CKED, REGARDLESS! That's the harsh, simple truth! No Lisbon treaty will save us. Only threaten to decrease our wages and try make us more like the American system, where, funnily enough, the rich prosper and the poor live in scuabbles!

P.s. I will be an Electronic Engineer. I can leave this sh!thole once I graduate so to be honest, whatever comes of Lisbon won't really apply to me anyway!

Ok please do listen we have similar backgrounds here, (I myself have a Science degree and Engineering masters degree so please bear with me, my area is not Electronics but i did recently have to work with EE graduates so we are related sort of speak)


Lisbon Treaty wont save us, but rejecting Lisbon would make things worse economicaly, my own small company nearly went under few months ago due to chaos and lack of confidence in the international trade system

Refusing Lisbon would only create more uncertainty and in business uncertainty is very very bad


anyways if your planning to leave (thanks for wasting my tax money) then why are you getting worked up about something that wont affect you?


you might not agree with me now, or even understand what im trying to tell you

but you will one day

/

Hayzer89

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Voting no won't necessarily make the country fall apart but that's hardly a reason to say no to it.

Firstly the treaty doesn't threaten to decrease our wages, that's just one of many lies going around and secondly, decreasing wages would go quite a long way towards facilitating economic recovery. Ireland is too expensive which is the main reason all those corporations are pulling out

They are pulling out regardless. Compare us to India, lets just say. Even if our wages were halved, the choice is still crystal clear!

I've already given reasons. I am happy with hope things are, and the say we have in the EU. We are a far less populated country by comparison to mast other countries, so we should have a lesser say and input into the Union.

That in fact is very democractic. The majority gets the say. The very essence of what the EU stands for and was founded upon, yet they try and force this treaty upon is.

That alone is enough reason to vote NO!

ei.sdraob

Hayzer89 wrote: »

They are pulling out regardless. Compare us to India, lets just say. Even if our wages were halved, the choice is still crystal clear!

I've already given reasons. I am happy with hope things are, and the say we have in the EU. We are a far less populated country by comparison to mast other countries, so we should have a lesser say and input into the Union.

That in fact is very democractic. The majority gets the say. The very essence of what the EU stands for and was founded upon, yet they try and force this treaty upon is.

That alone is enough reason to vote NO!

Im sorry but your logic is very flawed

the majority (well all of them) of the the other EU states

have listened to the concerns of the Irish people, made guarantees to address these concerns,

and now have asked Ireland to hold a democratic referendum (as per our constitution)

on Lisbon + Guarantees


Please explain how is that undemocratic


/

Hayzer89

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Ok please do listen we have similar backgrounds here, (I myself have a Science degree and Engineering masters degree so please bear with me, my area is not Electronics but i did recently have to work with EE graduates so we are related sort of speak)


Lisbon Treaty wont save us, but rejecting Lisbon would make things worse economicaly, my own small company nearly went under few months ago due to chaos and lack of confidence in the international trade system

Refusing Lisbon would only create more uncertainty and in business uncertainty is very very bad


anyways if your planning to leave (thanks for wasting my tax money) then why are you getting worked up about something that wont affect you?


you might not agree with me now, or even understand what im trying to tell you

but you will one day

/

Wasting your taxes? What taxes? lol Isn't it the EU who in gravely in favour of competition, and who made our government owned businesses be open for privatization to premote competiton? Competition is good, and I hate to sound harsh but I am a logically minded person, and if you can't compete with the competition, then you were right to nearly lose your business. That is a very basic law of economics and nature.

However harsh and seemingly ''unfair'' it may seem, survival of the fittest is the only way any economy can be sustained at a stable level. However, our greed for money causes us to think we can keep bad businesses going, even if they are very unproductive and ineffective. That is the reason why we are in the hole we are in today, and I can believe our government knew this was coming, and continued to fuel the property bubble and I never saw the EU jumping in and trying to stop it.

If they had, we would not be half as badly effected as we are today.

So if you're a Fianna Fáil supposert, which you probably are (statistically speaking) when thank you for f*cking up me financially. It was Fianna Fáil who never governed the propert bubble and, therefor, Ireland being hit so bad is ENTIRELY DOWN TO THEM AND THEIR SUPPORTS!

So please, don't even try and preach to me how I've 'wasted' your taxes when you've ruined my kids kids taxes. It will take decades to pay back the loans our government are taking, if they ever manage to!

Hayzer89

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Im sorry but your logic is very flawed

the majority (well all of them) of the the other EU states

have listened to the concerns of the Irish people, made guarantees to address these concerns,

and now have asked Ireland to hold a democratic referendum (as per our constitution)

on Lisbon + Guarantees


Please explain how is that undemocratic


/

And the only reason they lsitened to us is so that they would have a reason to send it to the polls again. They would not have gotten away with sending it to the polls again, unchanged. So they used this as a scapegoat.

if you can't see that, somethings up man!

thebman

Hayzer89 wrote: »

And the only reason they lsitened to us is so that they would have a reason to send it to the polls again. They would not have gotten away with sending it to the polls again, unchanged. So they used this as a scapegoat.

if you can't see that, somethings up man!

So addressing the primary concerns of the people and asking them to vote again is scapegoating?

Hayzer89

thebman wrote: »

So addressing the primary concerns of the people and asking them to vote again is scapegoating?

The onyl reason they ''listened'' is because we refused it and they will do whatever it takes to get it in. Why can't you see this?!?!?!?!

Ok, if they really give a f*ck about us, why didn't they ''listen to our concerns'' first time around? Because they were convienced we were retarded enough to be sheep and follow what our government tell u. That is an insult to me!

thebman

Hayzer89 wrote: »

The onyl reason they ''listened'' is because we refused it and they will do whatever it takes to get it in. Why can't you see this?!?!?!?!

Ok, if they really give a f*ck about us, why didn't they ''listen to our concerns'' first time around? Because they were convienced we were retarded enough to be sheep and follow what our government tell u. That is an insult to me!

What do you mean first time? Our elected representatives had a lot to do with negotiating the treaty in the first place so they probably assumed they were listening to the people.

prinz

Hayzer89 wrote: »

Why give them any more power? I am happy with what they have right now, and the last thing I want is for the EU to become like the States. That is the system they are largely modeling the EU on and I'd be sickenned if they do. The Lisbon treaty is one of the main steps along the way, and I stand against that.

Do we really need the infamous Ganley paper again...

A United Europe could provide for European peace, prosperity, strength, quality of life, and the ability to build not just a better Europe but a better and safer world.... A United States of Europe, structured properly, could benefit Europeans and the world....A federal Europe is a pretty good idea.....In addition to protecting our future from power grabs, pan- European parties could start to address issues such as free trade, security, education, quality of life, health care, the family, an independent judiciary, competitiveness, technology, entrepreneurship and job creation, the developing world, and human rights......Rather than try to define itself in contradistinction to the United States, this new Europe must be an equal partner and influence for the worldwide extension of justice and liberty...

http://www.fpri.org/ww/0405.200312.ganley.euconstitution.html

This is taken from a paper written in 2003 by Declan Ganley to an American think-tank, tasked with looking at world affairs to bring about policies that advance the American national interest. In this 6 year old paper Mr Ganley planned the founding of a political party called Libertas in order to bring about his vision of a federal, United States of Europe. Do you think if the Lisbon Treaty was a stepping stone towards creating that, Ganley and Libertas would be so dead-set against it? Ganley's problem is that it doesn't.

Hayzer89 wrote: »

In using that ''5 a side exam'' personally, I would leave it as a 5 a side match. Tough t!tty for the other two player's. They came last/are worse, and so, should not be as fast to be allowed play. They should prove their worth first!

So you won't mind when Ireland loses out then? Any new accession countries have long since "proven their worth" to be member states.

ei.sdraob

Hayzer89 wrote: »

=
So if you're a Fianna Fáil supposert, which you probably are (statistically speaking) when thank you for f*cking up me financially. It was Fianna Fáil who never governed the propert bubble and, therefor, Ireland being hit so bad is ENTIRELY DOWN TO THEM AND THEIR SUPPORTS!=

oh ffs

you crack me up :rolleyes:

perhaps you should read my past posts

ive over and over taken my anger at FF which i never voted for

for that matter i made it very clear where my political preference lies

ah bleh why do i bother


/

Herbal Deity

Hayzer89 wrote: »

I am merely point out that this system is not democractic, and their are way too many loopholes for the government to get their way, if they really want to.

The people elect the government.

That's what makes it democratic.

You can say people are stupid for electing said government, but you can't say that Ireland is not democratic because you don't like the way the government elected by the people operates.