Unions

Hootanany

We have to break them before they break this country

techdiver

Hootanany wrote: »

We have to break them before they break this country

I know. Listening to that commie fool Jack O'Connor harping on about massive action on the news yesterday turned my stomach. The unions are great at saying no at every turn, but very thin on any real suggestions on where we are going to bridge the gap between or national income and expenditure!:mad:

In some way I hope they get their way, so that the country will be forced to call on the IMF and then they will reap the benefit of their national sabotage and their economic ineptitude will be clear for all to see.

Wishbone Ash

So organisations who represent the interests of ordinary workers and who's legitimacy is enshrined in our constitution, should be broken while we bail out the banks, developers and politicians? :rolleyes:

Hootanany

i believe there is a porter at the Mater that is on strike

optocynic

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

So organisations who represent the interests of ordinary workers and who's legitimacy is enshrined in our constitution, should be broken while we bail out the banks, developers and politicians? :rolleyes:

If that was what they were doing, we would support them (to a degree).. but how can they support teachers... 50k a year... short work week.. 9 months uncertified sick leave.... and we ALL know that the number of GOOD teachers you had can be counted on one hand!!..

How can O'Connor claim these guys are 'ordinary workers'???

National average wage = 32k
Public sector average wage = 50k(ish)

How can a self proclaimed socialist call these guys 'ordinary workers'???

optocynic

Hootanany wrote: »

i believe there is a porter at the Mater that is on strike

Will he be missed?

techdiver

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

So organisations who represent the interests of ordinary workers and who's legitimacy is enshrined in our constitution, should be broken while we bail out the banks, developers and politicians? :rolleyes:

This same old tune is getting old. Regardless of the means of how it is achieved, every political party will bail out the banks in some way. It is the nature of the world we live in that we need the banks to function or things will become decidedly worse. Ordinary workers in the private sector are loosing jobs daily due to the fact that the banking system in this country has ground to a halt and is not lending money to viable businesses. This in turn results in these businesses closing and jobs being lost.

You can't look at this situation through such a narrow lens, in the same way the unions do. You can't have it both ways.

Hootanany

what will they do mass strikes more stick will be given to the public sector that we cannot afford

techdiver

Hootanany wrote: »

what will they do mass strikes more stick will be given to the public sector that we cannot afford

Not to mention the view that potential outside investors will get of the Irish workforce. Look at the level of outside investment in France due to their overly powerful unions. The difference for them is that they have quite a large indigenous industry whereas we don't.

teddy_303

optocynic wrote: »

If that was what they were doing, we would support them (to a degree).. but how can they support teachers... 50k a year... short work week.. 9 months uncertified sick leave.... and we ALL know that the number of GOOD teachers you had can be counted on one hand!!..

How can O'Connor claim these guys are 'ordinary workers'???

National average wage = 32k
Public sector average wage = 50k(ish)

How can a self proclaimed socialist call these guys 'ordinary workers'???

I agree with what you are saying in regard to the teachers, but I have to add to this comment, that they are a special case, due to how long it takes to qualify, against the wages earned by someone who spends the same amount of time in college who goes out to work in the private sector?

It was getting to the point where no one was training to teach kids. Which is a very important job, i'm sure anyone would agree. You couldn't have the college drop outs teaching these kids, who all our futures depend on massively.

In regard to the unions themselves, just be grateful you have a job where you are treated well, and do not require their assistance. Lucky old you. :mad:

optocynic

teddy_303 wrote: »

In regard to the unions themselves, just be grateful you have a job where you are treated well, and do not require their assistance. Lucky old you. :mad:

Everyone in a job today is treated well... European law protects the worker more than ever in the history of man.
The myth that employers don't take care of their good workers is total crap, spread by the "unemployable f*cking headbangers" in the unions.
Malcontents in the modern workforce.. tend to be bad workers...
Today... all the unions do, is hold up progress and success, by protecting the deadwood in their sectors!!!

More harm than good!

teddy_303

techdiver wrote: »

Not to mention the view that potential outside investors will get of the Irish workforce. Look at the level of outside investment in France due to their overly powerful unions. The difference for them is that they have quite a large indigenous industry whereas we don't.

Well which do you think is more important, having cheap labour crap jobs, whose benefactors are foreign, living off the cheap exploitable down trodden Irish people like we had back in the 80's - Vs - worth while jobs with an eye on sustainability, longevity in mind,.

I know you don't have to accept these working conditions, you can tell by how your perspective comes across, but unless you are prepared to do these crappy jibs, I don't think you are in a position to be crying out for them.

I can remember them the first time around tech driver, they were not worth it, absolutely soul destroying..

techdiver

teddy_303 wrote: »

Well which do you think is more important, having cheap labour crap jobs, whose benefactors are foreign, living off the cheap exploitable down trodden Irish people like we had back in the 80's - Vs - worth while jobs with an eye on sustainability, longevity in mind,.

I know you don't have to accept these working conditions, you can tell by how your perspective comes across, but unless you are prepared to do these crappy jibs, I don't think you are in a position to be crying out for them.

I can remember them the first time around tech driver, they were not worth it, absolutely soul destroying..

The inward investment I talk of is for jobs in all facets of life. My job for instance is with a US multinational and we don't have union representation and believe it or not we are not working in the gutter and being mistreated. We are being paid to do a job. Conditions and pay are worked out individually between each member of staff and the employer and if we don't like it we know where the door is.

The current model supported by unions is a socialist view of equal pay regardless of how useless you are. This does not encourage people to better themselves because pay is in no way based on merit. My mother is a civil servant and she agrees with this. She sees many useless gets who would be shown the door in the private sector, but because they are protected by bullsh**t agreements they draw down the same salary as good workers do.

Tell me, is that the way things should work??

teddy_303

optocynic wrote: »

Everyone in a job today is treated well... European law protects the worker more than ever in the history of man.
The myth that employers don't take care of their good workers is total crap, spread by the "unemployable f*cking headbangers" in the unions.
Malcontents in the modern workforce.. tend to be bad workers...
Today... all the unions do, is hold up progress and success, by protecting the deadwood in their sectors!!!

More harm than good!

I couldn't disagree with you more. Some people just want to go to work, but some political bull sh1t can throw some people off. There is a thing called
"Lick Flexibility" , which is nothing more than the gentiles way of saying exploit, exploit, exploit. Count yourself lucky you haven't felt your self being squeezed YET! It could happen to you yet. Who are you going to turn to then, when your colleagues turn their backs on you, and are just glad it wasn't them who spoke up for your employment rights..:o

optocynic

teddy_303 wrote: »

Well which do you think is more important, having cheap labour crap jobs, whose benefactors are foreign, living off the cheap exploitable down trodden Irish people like we had back in the 80's - Vs - worth while jobs with an eye on sustainability, longevity in mind,.

I know you don't have to accept these working conditions, you can tell by how your perspective comes across, but unless you are prepared to do these crappy jibs, I don't think you are in a position to be crying out for them.

I can remember them the first time around tech driver, they were not worth it, absolutely soul destroying..

What's your point?
Or more importantly.. what is your solution?

optocynic

teddy_303 wrote: »

I couldn't disagree with you more. Some people just want to go to work, but some political bull sh1t can throw some people off. There is a thing called
"Lick Flexibility" , which is nothing more than the gentiles way of saying exploit, exploit, exploit. Count yourself lucky you haven't felt your self being squeezed YET! It could happen to you yet. Who are you going to turn to then, when your colleagues turn their backs on you, and are just glad it wasn't them who spoke up for your employment rights..:o

I am making myself indispensable to my company... I am of benefit to them.. I bring in business/success... hence, I EARN my job and salary!

If I was not performing... I would not deserve any assistance from my collegues/team... because I would be letting them down!

P. Breathnach

optocynic wrote: »

Everyone in a job today is treated well...

That is a preposterous claim.

optocynic

P. Breathnach wrote: »

That is a preposterous claim.

Explain please.
Examples would be nice too.

Riskymove

optocynic wrote: »

Explain please.
Examples would be nice too.

are you saying you have never heard of anyone being found guilty of, let's say unfair dismissal? constructive dismissal? bullying or sexual harrasment? breach of contract? and so on

optocynic

Riskymove wrote: »

are you saying you have never heard of anyone being found guilty of, let's say unfair dismissal? constructive dismissal? bullying or sexual harrasment? breach of contract? and so on

WOW... you just proved my point!
If unfairly dismissed... you get a nice reward!
Same for everything else you said.

That is why labour laws are there... to protect the honest worker from dishonest employers.

Riskymove

optocynic wrote: »

That is why labour laws are there... to protect the honest worker from dishonest employers.

in fairness, thats not the same as....

Originally Posted by optocynic
Everyone in a job today is treated well...

its like saying "everyone today is safe from being killed" is the same as "we have murder laws"

P. Breathnach

optocynic wrote: »

Explain please.
Examples would be nice too.

To me, it is such a self-evident truth that it should need no explanation. Were the Gama workers well-treated? What about the mushroom producer (I forget the name) that paid workers piece-rates so low that it was impossible for them to reach even the minimum wage? Do you know the working conditions of the crews on Irish Ferries? I know of one employer in Dublin that paid workers €50 for 12-hour shifts with no breaks, lunch taken at the desk (a case I reported to the labour inspectorate myself -- I don't know if it ever entered the public domain). You can regularly read reports of wrongful dismissal or constructive dismissal cases being brought to the Labour Court. We frequently hear of bullying in the workplace.

There are lots of bad employers.

optocynic

Riskymove wrote: »

in fairness, thats not the same as....



its like saying "everyone today is safe from being killed" is the same as "we have murder laws"

When you get killed... you can't sue your killer..

Silly simile!

My point is... Unions are simply protecting the status quo.
And right now... in ALL sectors.. we need drastic change!

If that means reducing public sector deadwood.. the unions should help, not hinder!

optocynic

P. Breathnach wrote: »

To me, it is such a self-evident truth that it should need no explanation. Were the Gama workers well-treated? What about the mushroom producer (I forget the name) that paid workers piece-rates so low that it was impossible for them to reach even the minimum wage? Do you know the working conditions of the crews on Irish Ferries? I know of one employer in Dublin that paid workers €50 for 12-hour shifts with no breaks, lunch taken at the desk (a case I reported to the labour inspectorate myself -- I don't know if it ever entered the public domain). You can regularly read reports of wrongful dismissal or constructive dismissal cases being brought to the Labour Court. We frequently hear of bullying in the workplace.

There are lots of bad employers.

The bad employers are far outweighed by the good.

And the ability to take issues to the labour court is what I was refering to. It maked employers honest...

Every employer I have had, has treated me very well... I don't fear or hate the boss man..
I respect him.. and one day.. want to be him..

P. Breathnach

optocynic wrote: »

The bad employers are far outweighed by the good.

That is not the same as what you previously said: "Everyone in a job today is treated well."

And the ability to take issues to the labour court is what I was refering to. It maked employers honest...

I mentioned the case I referred to the labour inspectorate. I did so because the employee I encountered was afraid to do anything about her position -- a young woman in a strange land.

Every employer I have had, has treated me very well... I don't fear or hate the boss man..
I respect him.. and one day.. want to be him..

I do not deny that there are good employers.

Hootanany

teddy_303 wrote: »

I couldn't disagree with you more. Some people just want to go to work, but some political bull sh1t can throw some people off. There is a thing called
"Lick Flexibility" , which is nothing more than the gentiles way of saying exploit, exploit, exploit. Count yourself lucky you haven't felt your self being squeezed YET! It could happen to you yet. Who are you going to turn to then, when your colleagues turn their backs on you, and are just glad it wasn't them who spoke up for your employment rights..:o

My God are you Jack O'Connor

erictheviking

Hootanany wrote: »

We have to break them before they break this country

Let me guess!:rolleyes::rolleyes:
A large property owning, HAS to be self employed, BMW driver who thinks the working class are peasants :mad:!

Some posters can be read like a book!:)

techdiver

erictheviking wrote: »

Let me guess!:rolleyes::rolleyes:
A large property owning, HAS to be self employed, BMW driver who thinks the working class are peasants :mad:!

Some posters can be read like a book!:)

Or...

He could be a private sector worker who has been put on a 3 day week or even worse lost his job and is sick of the moaning of unions who represent a minority of workers and yield a vastly disproportionate amount of power and influence!

Perhaps the book you are reading is different to the one I read??

erictheviking

techdiver wrote: »

Or...

He could be a private sector worker who has been put on a 3 day week or even worse lost his job and is sick of the moaning of unions who represent a minority of workers and yield a vastly disproportionate amount of power and influence!

Perhaps the book you are reading is different to the one I read??

I doubt very much if thats the OP's case.

How are union members at fault for people losing their jobs and people being put on 3 day weeks??

techdiver

erictheviking wrote: »

I doubt very much if thats the OP's case.

How are union members at fault for people losing their jobs and people being put on 3 day weeks??

You're missing the point. People in that position see the public sector unions moaning about pay cuts and other measures that are a reality of every day life for most of the workers in the country. They are not in touch with reality and their unwillingness to be in any way flexible is costing the tax payer billions as we don't have the money to pay for the current public service that we have.

Jack O'Connor et al, don't speak for me, but every decision they make effect the entire country. These guys were the chief architects of causing the public sector to become bloated and for introducing the worst economic pay agreement ever to be written. Benchmarking caused wages to spiral out of control and did nothing to encourage any kind of ingenuity in the public sector. I should know, I was there, briefly. In all the jobs I have worked the civil service is by far the least efficient and has the least motivated staff! Can you blame them? Person A can work their ass off to achieve better results and person B can sit on their ass and do nothing and guess what, their increments for the same position are the same regardless of their contrasting value to the position!

I also find it funny that benchmarking only works in one direction......

Fat_Fingers

I think there is no problem with having unions , actually they are needed as balance. The problem is who represents unions. I'm talking about Jack O'Connor and David Beggs.
Jack O'Connor is bad publicity for unions , he represents old Marxism and has no intelligent knowledge of modern economy. For this man everyone is enemy unless they are under his glorious leadership. A bit like Stalin. Jack O'Connor said he thinks the union officials on the board of FAS should explain the benefit to workers of them remaining in their position. So he thinks it ok to be corrupt and incompetent as long as you are union member.
David Beggs is much smarter and not naive at all like Jack O'Connor. I think David Beggs is to unions what Bertie Ahern was to FF. Very smart but on the end we will find all the skeletons under the bed. We know David Beggs was on board of central bank and had access to all confidential data yet he did nothing to alert public about incompetence of financial regulator or mickey mouse work practices that Anglo, AIB and BoI were engaged in for long time.

I think we need unions more then ever but they are not well served or represented by Jack O'Connor and David Beggs.