What to do when someone increases their price?

ninjaBob

I posted this over at askaboutmoney, and thought I would try and get another perspective on this.

I am in the middle of doing a self build, I hired a plumber based on his written quote.

He did the first fixings without any problem, and I paid him in full for the first fix.

He then came back to do the second fixings and left some materials onsite he had then added some additional charges to the quote. Even though nothing had been added nor had anything changed from when he had done the original quote. This extra charges were never discussed, nor were they ever explained they were merely hidden in the invoice.

When I called him on this, he agreed to honour his original quote. This then happened a second time after he re-issued the invoice. Just the extra cost were now on different products

He then asked for 50% of the second fix balance upfront before he would proceed with the work. I then asked for a full breakdown what work was to be carried out and what what would be left to do(this included full price breakdown).

When I added everything together I noticed that he had added an extra €2000 to the total price.

When I brought this up with him he couldn't give me an explanation a heated exchange followed.

I then met with him in person to get a full detailed explanation as to the increase and he asked me to ignore it. I couldn't get an answer from him as to why he was constantly trying to increase the cost of the plumbing.

Ultimately I called it off and asked him to remove his materials from the site and looked for another plumber. He then sent me a bill for all the materials he left on site, the value of the materials over the counter at B&Q or any other Building supply is €1500 and he is looking for €2600. So I feel even now he is trying to screw me on this.

I've offered to return the materials and pay for any re-stocking charges. My builder thinks I am mental and that this guy is simply taking advantage because he knows I'm not as hardened as a builder. I know there are plenty of cowboys out there and I should harden the F up and not give them a second thouoght, but this is bugging me. Any advice would be great

More recently I was contacted via letter by the plumber and he had informed me that he had sold the debt onto:

"Stubbs Debt Collection Agency"

and that they will be in contact shortly. So what do I do now and what exactly does that mean? Is my credit record ruined because of this guy and what can I do?

More frustrating is the fact that he has now once again increased the price, he was originally requesting €2600 to cover the cost of materials and is now looking for €3200....

My builder reckons I am too soft and that I should harden the f* up. At this point I am inclined to agree with him and that this plumber is simply chancing his arm and hoping that I will fold and pay him. I have the cash to pay up, but out of principal at this point I would much rather stand my ground and not be bullied by him.

Any thoughts?

ejmaztec

I'd get a solicitor on this immediately, so that he can nip it in the bud. The plumber's obviously a sh1t of the highest order.

Oryx

If the materials are still on site, tell him he has x days to collect them, or you will be in touch with your own solicitor to sort out the whole matter.

Dont roll over on this one, he sounds like a chancer.

Jumpy

Can you charge him for storage now?

ScouseMouse

The materials are not yours - they are his.

You dont want them so why is he invoicing you for them. Just tell him to collect them at a mutually beneficial time and that you are binning the invoice.

Do not back down on this...

ejmaztec

Oryx wrote: »

If the materials are still on site, tell him he has x days to collect them, or you will be in touch with your own solicitor to sort out the whole matter.

Dont roll over on this one, he sounds like a chancer.

With Stubbs on the case, it will take a long time to shake them off. The plumber won't give a hoot about the materials, because Stubbs has obviously paid him for them. If a solicitor isn't called in straight away, this could drag on for months.

Of course, it could be possible that Stubbs aren't involved at all, and the plumber could be trying to bluff the money out of the OP.

Sleipnir

ninjaBob wrote: »

I posted this over at askaboutmoney, and thought I would try and get another perspective on this.



More recently I was contacted via letter by the plumber and he had informed me that he had sold the debt onto:

"Stubbs Debt Collection Agency"

and that they will be in contact shortly. So what do I do now and what exactly does that mean? Is my credit record ruined because of this guy and what can I do?

More frustrating is the fact that he has now once again increased the price, he was originally requesting €2600 to cover the cost of materials and is now looking for €3200....

My builder reckons I am too soft and that I should harden the f* up. At this point I am inclined to agree with him and that this plumber is simply chancing his arm and hoping that I will fold and pay him. I have the cash to pay up, but out of principal at this point I would much rather stand my ground and not be bullied by him.

Any thoughts?

My first thought is that your plumber is getting confused. "Stubb's Gazette" is a publication which publishes information on people who have a court judgement against them for unpaid debts etc. They don't do debt collection itself and your credit is not ruined.
I'd say that's just to scare you into paying him.

His materials are just that; his. So as long as you permit him to collect his materials then you don't have any more obligations. If he decided not to collect them he can't charge you for it!
If I park my car in your driveway, can I then send you a bill for the cost of it?

If it was me, I would write to him explaining that he can collect his materials at a date and time agreeable to you both and if he doesn't do it, not your problem.

**EDIT** Very important, make a written record of the date, time and all details of contact with him from now on.

Jumpy

If I remember correctly that a collection agency cannot affect your credit rating. Is this correct?

ninjaBob

I've never tried to claim ownership on the materials. I have stored them away safely and ensured nothing happens to them.

Nearly a month ago I offered to have them delievered back to him or his distributor. I also offered to pay any kind of restocking charge, but he is simply refusing to accept this.

From his perspective I broke the contract because I didn't proceed with the work. From my perspective he broke the contract each time he increased his price, thus trying to create a new offer, and each time I allowed him to honour his contract I was accepting a new offer.

From a legal standpoint I have a detailed record of correspondances with him. So I have all the increases in writing which is a huge plus on my part.

ninjaBob

ejmaztec wrote: »

With Stubbs on the case, it will take a long time to shake them off. The plumber won't give a hoot about the materials, because Stubbs has obviously paid him for them. If a solicitor isn't called in straight away, this could drag on for months.

Of course, it could be possible that Stubbs aren't involved at all, and the plumber could be trying to bluff the money out of the OP.

Are Stubbs an actual debt collection agency? I have sent all the details and documentation to my solicitor.

**EDIT** Very important, make a written record of the date, time and all details of contact with him from now on.

I made sure everything went through email, so I have these safely stored (Server, work, home, laptop etc) for my own records, and then I made note of all meetings, phone conversations etc.

Sleipnir

ejmaztec wrote: »

With Stubbs on the case, it will take a long time to shake them off. The plumber won't give a hoot about the materials, because Stubbs has obviously paid him for them. If a solicitor isn't called in straight away, this could drag on for months.

Of course, it could be possible that Stubbs aren't involved at all, and the plumber could be trying to bluff the money out of the OP.

So you know this crowd; Stubb's Debt Collection Agency?

Oryx

Sleipnir wrote: »

So you know this crowd; Stubb's Debt Collection Agency?

Google throws up Stubbs Marlyn in UK?

ejmaztec

Sleipnir wrote: »

So you know this crowd; Stubb's Debt Collection Agency?

I know that there's a Stubbs Marlyn debt collection outfit, operating out of the UK.

jor el

ninjaBob wrote: »

Are Stubbs an actual debt collection agency? I have sent all the details and documentation to my solicitor.

Then leave it at that, and have no further contact with the plumber. Ignore everything from him, and any debt collection agencies that may contact you. Any further letters should also be give straight to your solicitor.

He broke the contract by changing the prices, and re-issuing the invoice, not you. Your solicitor should be able to answer all your questions.

Sleipnir

Google is a wonderful thing!

Well cro.ie doesn't show up any Stubb's debt collection agency and I'm pretty sure you'd need the company registered her in order to operate in this country.
It does show Stubb's Gazette which I've explained already.

OP, if, as he says, he's sold the debt on (coughbull****cough), then he doesn't need to contact you anymore does he?!?

ejmaztec

If the plumber maintains that he's sold the debt, this presumably would have been done to a debt "factor". I know that Stubbs Gazette isn't involved in this, and that Stubbs subscribers can use the Stubbs Gazette logo on demands for payment, where a non-payer is threatened with his name being published in Stubbs Gazette if he doesn't hand the money over.

Stubbs Marlyn seem to just offer straight debt collection services, but don't operate as factors.

I get the impression that the plumber is talking out of his hole, or that he hasn't used the correct name for a debt factor that actually has bought the debt from him.

Sleipnir

ejmaztec wrote: »

If the plumber maintains that he's sold the debt, this presumably would have been done to a debt "factor". I know that Stubbs Gazette isn't involved in this, and that Stubbs subscribers can use the Stubbs Gazette logo on demands for payment, where a non-payer is threatened with his name being published in Stubbs Gazette if he doesn't hand the money over.

Stubbs Marlyn seem to just offer straight debt collection services, but don't operate as factors.

I get the impression that the plumber is talking out of his hole, or that he hasn't used the correct name for a debt factor that actually has bought the debt from him.

+1 to that.
Even to get your name published in Stubb's Gazette, you need a court judgement against you. Selling the debt on to someone else doesn't mean they go in the gazette!

Also, you don't just ring up an agency and say
"I left gear worth 2k on a site and I can't get it back, will you buy the debt off me?"
"Yeah sure, we trust you that the debt is worth what you say it is so we'll cut you a cheque"
"Grand. The guy isn't refusing to give the stuff back, I just couldn't be arsed collecting it"
"Hey, that seems fair to me!"

You'd need an itemised list of the items, the invoices for each etc etc.

killbillvol2

I'm open to correction on this but there was a guy from Stubb's Gazette on Ivan Yates' TV show at the weekend. I wasn't paying full attention but one thing that stuck in my mind was that only debts registered in the High Court appear in the gazette.

Sleipnir

If it was me, I'd be calling his bluff now.

Alright, you've sold the debt for all the gear you left on to a collection agency which means you've waived any rights to it so I'll just hang on to that and wait for the agency to ring. Unless you've changed your mind and you do want to collect it all?

jor el

Sleipnir wrote: »

If it was me, I'd be calling his bluff now.

Alright, you've sold the debt for all the gear you left on to a collection agency which means you've waived any rights to it so I'll just hang on to that and wait for the agency to ring. Unless you've changed your mind and you do want to collect it all?

Good point. The goods are now the property of the "collection agency", and the plumber is no longer entitled to them. If he does call looking for them, tell him you can't hand them back, as they're not his. You're waiting on someone from Stubbs Collection Agency, with proper ID confirming this, to hand them over... Unless of course he wants to admit he's a lying f***er.

Welease

H'e a chancer... He broke the original contract when he increased the price.

The debt agency (if indeed there is one) cannot damage your credit rating, in fact they have 0 powers in Ireland unless they take your to court and get a judgement against you. This is unlikely to happen, as no actual debt exists because the plumber refuses to honour his contract..

In short, write him a letter (registered) telling him he has 14 days to collect his material otherwise he will be charged storage costs and after 28 days the items will be sold.

ninjaBob

The solicitor has just gotten back to me (he only had a brief overview on this as I pushed for a quick response).

He basically states that the plumber should not be put in a position where he would make a loss. That he can only sue me for the cost of the goods, he cannot sue for any more.

So if he was to accept back the materials, then he wouldn't make a loss (or at least not a significant loss).

Regarding the debt collection agency he said that they can sell the debt if they wish and he would look further into what is involved if it goes down that route.

Finally he said the simplest and cheapest option would be to pay the guy and cut my losses. The alternative is to go to court and argue the case.

Obviously he doesn't want to say that I am 100% right as that is upto a judge to make that call. So obviously he is cautious about encouraging me to stick it to the plumber.

Welease wrote: »

H'e a chancer... He broke the original contract when he increased the price.

The debt agency (if indeed there is one) cannot damage your credit rating, in fact they have 0 powers in Ireland unless they take your to court and get a judgement against you. This is unlikely to happen, as no actual debt exists because the plumber refuses to honour his contract..

In short, write him a letter (registered) telling him he has 14 days to collect his material otherwise he will be charged storage costs and after 28 days the items will be sold.

Whats the difference between a registered letter and an email?

Welease

That doesnt make sense.. I would push your solicitor for more details..

1) The plumber is refusing to honour the original contract not you..
2) You are not responsible for the plumbers loss becuase he refused to complete the original contact, so how can you be held accountable, and why should you have to pay an increased cost to satify those conditions.
If that were true then it would be open to all manner of abuse..
3) If the plumber has sold the "debt", then you are not in a position to satisfy the plumber, becuase he no longer owns the "debt".. He has recieved payment for that debt already, if you pay him to complete the work he has been paid double ....

I'm confused...

Welease

ninjaBob wrote: »

Whats the difference between a registered letter and an email?

It's far easier to prove he actually received the communication.

Sleipnir

I wouldn't be trying to stick it to him exactly, I'd just want him gone with not another penny given over.
He's done first fix and you've paid him for that, he tried to jack up the price of the second fix and you refused to pay it. He left without his stuff and then tried to make you pay for it. Tell him he can have his stuff and if he doesn't want it, that's fine.

And don't offer to pay for "restocking fees" because he'll just pocket that and use the materials on another job.

ninjaBob

I believe the Solicitors point is that he shouldn't be put in a position where he incurs a loss as a result of me walking away.

So lets just say I had the plumber put in all the first fixings, and didn't pay him at that point. Then the plumber made his increases, the first fixings could have been good, and very difficult for the plumber to undo as concrete would have been poured over the pipes.

So the plumber should not make a loss on this work or parts, even if he made the increases in price.

Now I paid for the first fix in full, and no additional work had been done since he made those increases. Therefore there is no risk of him making a loss as he has not done any additional labour nor has any materials been used which would put him at a loss.

I suppose ultimately it's to prevent me from screwing the plumber as a result of him trying to screw me :P

ejmaztec

ninjaBob wrote: »

The solicitor has just gotten back to me (he only had a brief overview on this as I pushed for a quick response).

He basically states that the plumber should not be put in a position where he would make a loss. That he can only sue me for the cost of the goods, he cannot sue for any more.

So if he was to accept back the materials, then he wouldn't make a loss (or at least not a significant loss).

Regarding the debt collection agency he said that they can sell the debt if they wish and he would look further into what is involved if it goes down that route.

Finally he said the simplest and cheapest option would be to pay the guy and cut my losses. The alternative is to go to court and argue the case.

Obviously he doesn't want to say that I am 100% right as that is upto a judge to make that call. So obviously he is cautious about encouraging me to stick it to the plumber.



Whats the difference between a registered letter and an email?

Sounds like you need a more aggressive solicitor, and I don't mean the one in Longford who accidentally shot the judge with an air-gun.

Sleipnir

ninjaBob wrote: »

I believe the Solicitors point is that he shouldn't be put in a position where he incurs a loss as a result of me walking away.

So lets just say I had the plumber put in all the first fixings, and didn't pay him at that point. Then the plumber made his increases, the first fixings could have been good, and very difficult for the plumber to undo as concrete would have been poured over the pipes.

So the plumber should not make a loss on this work or parts, even if he made the increases in price.

Now I paid for the first fix in full, and no additional work had been done since he made those increases. Therefore there is no risk of him making a loss as he has not done any additional labour nor has any materials been used which would put him at a loss.

I suppose ultimately it's to prevent me from screwing the plumber as a result of him trying to screw me :P

Well you owe him nothing, you can ask him to complete the contract as agreed in the beginning. If you don't allow him to finish as agreed, then you would be in breach. If you ask and he refuses, then he is in breach of the contract. He can't then insist that you pay for the gear he didn't use.

Then just tell him to pick up his gear and if he doesn't want to, it's his loss.

ninjaBob

I suppose this is where it gets tricky, am I in breach because I walked away after he tried to make the increase for a 3rd time?

After his increase should I have allowed him to once again honour his contract? (3rd time to honour his agreement).

It's all semantics really, given that I didn't accept the 3rd increase, nor did I accept him honouring his contract for the 3rd time. I never entered into a new contract after he breeched it.

I'll try a few more solicitors and get more clarification on this.

Elessar

It's fairly clear this man is taking you for a ride. Won't collect his tools and expects you to pay for them??

Regardless of contract issues, this debt collection agency has no powers other than to take you to court. Somehow, I doubt that will happen.

Time to get a more clued-in solicitor.

mcaul

firstly regarding stubbs / courts - The plumber can get them to send a letter & this costs €27.
Here's a sample http://www.businesspro.ie/stubbs_resource_centre/src_demand_letter_urgent.pdf

He can then get them to send a second letter for another €27. And then he must instruct a solicitor who will draft district court proceeding in your local court and you will get 10 days to enter a defence.

Judges are humans. They DO NOT hand out judgements because an eejit of a plumber says something is owed. The plumber MUST show all details and PROVE the case against you.

By what you have said, there is no case against you for the following reason -

1. After first fixing you paid agreed price on time.
2. No further work has been undertaken
3. The plumber changed the price and therefore changed the contract, you have not agreed to this change in contract and therefore no further contract exists.
4. As the plumber has refused to carry out the work for the price originally agreed, you are well within your rights to approach another plumber to complete the work.

It would be advantageous if the plumber who completed the work did so for a price near to the original price the original plumber quoted - this would show that the original plumber was chancing his arm and the judge will find against him and he would have to pay all your costs.

As per other posts, send a registered letter (he has to sign that he received it) inform him that the materials are available for him to collect at any reasonable hour with one days notice and that if not collected within a month you will regard them as abandoned and dispose of them. Also inform him that should he wish to bring a district court case, tell him to inform his solicitor that service of papers can be accepted at your solicitors who will respond with the relevant defence.

Finally if it does go the legal route get a solicitor who knows what he's doing.