Does anyone trust the Irish Government?

Alex-Face

The thing is - we have already voted on the Lisbon Treaty. We voted No. That should be done and dusted. But like babies being potty trained - apparently we did the wrong thing so we are forced to go again until we get it 'Right'

Personally I am voting No on the Lisbon Treaty. More so this time around it is out of principal. We already said No - and regardless if Biffo doesn't like it - that is our say. We are a Democracy - The country SHOULD be run by its people via the Government. But that eejit - 'Mr.Cowen' thinks he knows best.

When they start working for minimum wage - then I will put my trust in the Government.

I have a feeling that this referendum will be fixed. Who is going to know...the Government controls it and can fix it easily. Anyone who thinks elsewise is naive.

Do you trust the Government anymore?

Regards,

Alex-Face

walshb

Alex-Face wrote: »

The thing is - we have already voted on the Lisbon Treaty. We voted No. That should be done and dusted. But like babies being potty trained - apparently we did the wrong thing so we are forced to go again until we get it 'Right'

Personally I am voting No on the Lisbon Treaty. More so this time around it is out of principal. We already said No - and regardless if Biffo doesn't like it - that is our say. We are a Democracy - The country SHOULD be run by its people via the Government. But that eejit - 'Mr.Cowen' thinks he knows best.

When they start working for minimum wage - then I will put my trust in the Government.

I have a feeling that this referendum will be fixed. Who is going to know...the Government controls it and can fix it easily. Anyone who thinks elsewise is naive.

Do you trust the Government anymore?

Regards,

Alex-Face

Good thread on this on the politics forum. I seem in the minority, with exactly your views on this treaty and forcing of it thru.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055683368

Alex-Face

Apologies for the double-thread. I just am very frustrated with this whole situation. You say you share or oppose my views?

walshb

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Euro_Kraut

Alex-Face wrote: »

I have a feeling that this referendum will be fixed. Who is going to know...the Government controls it and can fix it easily. Anyone who thinks elsewise is naive.

Do you trust the Government anymore?

Regards,

Alex-Face

Why didn't they fix the last one?

I trust them.

They had the wisdom to go back to the electorate, which we all know is foolish, when they clearly made the wrong decision in the last Lisbon Referendum...

Alex-Face

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

Why didn't they fix the last one?

Well why fix it when they might get a yes anyway? Plus - do you think that we wouldn't notice it being fixed? Logic would say the following :

1st Referendum

---

We vote Yes
-End of Story , the Government gets what they want

We vote No

---

They hold a second referendum to allow people to change their vote.
It is the only rational thing to happen. We hit the wrong button so
next time - uninformed voters change their vote.
They get a Yes - end of story

They get a No - they fix the results.

Everyone is expecting a Yes vote to win anyway - so nobody would really be surprised and the Government won't launch an inquiry to their own dirty tricks neither will the EU since they got their treaty - they're happy.

An easier example is the following:

1000 people are chosen for this experiment, you are one of them.
You are sitting at a desk with two buttons infront of you. You are told that you have to press the right button.

You are not told which one is correct and which is incorrect. But you are told one will give you an electric shock - the other will deposit a 5 Euro note on the table for you.

50% press the left and 50% press the right.

All the right-button people get shocked. The left button people get 5 euro.
They get a second chance, now 100% will press the right button second time around. Everyone gets a 5 euro note.

The 2nd referendum is having the affect on people that the first time it was a wrong choice.

Eutow

Deleted User wrote: »

I trust them.

They had the wisdom to go back to the electorate, which we all know is foolish, when they clearly made the wrong decision in the last Lisbon Referendum...

It is not their choice to ask us again. Under our constitution - thanks to the Crotty Agreement - any changes made to our constitution must go to a public vote, this is why they are forced to ask the people to vote on Lisbon. If this didn't exist, TD's would have voted on it themselves, as is what happened in the rest of Europe.

As for trusting the government, the answer is a big no. Most politicians are incompetent gombeens, on the take, loyal to themselves and the party. I would not trust them to buy me a pint.

Euro_Kraut

Alex-Face wrote: »

Plus - do you think that we wouldn't notice it being fixed?

Of course we would have noticed. What makes you think we wouldn't notice this time? The votes are counted publically in over 30 different locations around the country. It would take some operation by central and local governemt to pull it off. Given their track record of not working together I am doubtful they would be able to do it.

Anyway, its good that you are on to them.


To be honest, There is a conspiracy theories forum on this site. Your posts might be more suited to there.

Riskymove

Alex-Face wrote: »

An easier example is the following:

1000 people are chosen for this experiment, you are one of them.
You are sitting at a desk with two buttons infront of you. You are told that you have to press the right button.

You are not told which one is correct and which is incorrect. But you are told one will give you an electric shock - the other will deposit a 5 Euro note on the table for you.

50% press the left and 50% press the right.

All the right-button people get shocked. The left button people get 5 euro.
They get a second chance, now 100% will press the right button second time around. Everyone gets a 5 euro note.

The 2nd referendum is having the affect on people that the first time it was a wrong choice.

electrocute everyone who votes no?


I like it

Alex-Face

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

Of course we would have noticed. What makes you think we wouldn't notice this time? The votes are counted publically in over 30 different locations around the country. It would take some operation by central and local governemt to pull it off. Given their track record of not working together I am doubtful they would be able to do it.

Anyway, its good that you are on to them.


To be honest, There is a conspiracy theories forum on this site. Your posts might be more suited to there.

Ugh, I am not a conspiracist. I just don't trust the Government. And do you REALLY think its not possible for them to find whatever amount of Yes voters to count these votes? Don't kid yourself - it is extremely easy to fix a vote. Even easier when your the Governmet

diverdriver

As for trusting the government, the answer is a big no. Most politicians are incompetent gombeens, on the take, loyal to themselves and the party. I would not trust them to buy me a pint.

You're wrong about that, some are honest, competent and genuinely believe in doing what they believe is best for the country. Unfortunately that group are mostly the kind of idealogues who would turn the country into a kind of Cuba or something similar to a South American banana republic. So they're as worthless as the rest.

I would have voted yes, last time but didn't because of work committments. Largely due to the stupid lies the no camp told us. Neutrality, abortion, taxes etc. This time, I am voting no, because of the repeated lies of the yes camp. The reality is that if this vote was given to the people of Europe in general it would be a resounding no. That's now enough to ring alarm bells with me.

It's not that I no longer trust the Irish government. I never trusted any Fianna Fail government. But now I don't trust any European government to do what's right.

Plus it isn't democracy to keep voting until the right result is obtained. We voted no last time. That's the democratic will of the people. There it should lie. If the French or the Germans had a chance to vote and voted no. They would not be asked to vote again. But no, we Irish apparently are not allowed the privilege. Purely on that basis, we should vote no again. The treaty needs to go back to the drawing board and this time they should produce something that everyone in Europe can vote on, something we can all support. There is sufficient doubt about this treaty in all quarters to kill it and start again.

Euro_Kraut

Alex-Face wrote: »

Ugh, I am not a conspiracist. I just don't trust the Government. And do you REALLY think its not possible for them to find whatever amount of Yes voters to count these votes? Don't kid yourself - it is extremely easy to fix a vote. Even easier when your the Governmet

Yes you are. You are suggesting the Government along with the Local Authorities, the local authority workers, the media and the public who observe and tally the votes; will conspire to rig the outcome of the vote.

Riskymove

Riskymove wrote: »

electrocute everyone who votes no?

I like it

:D

I think, as part of the canvass, we have to shave their genital area before attaching the wires...

Alex-Face

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

Yes you are. You are suggesting the Government along with the Local Authorities, the local authority workers, the media and the public who observe and tally the votes; will conspire to rig the outcome of the vote.

Ok you have just included thousands of more people more than it takes to fix the election.

The only people they have to control is the people count the votes. Even at that. Its even easier to just swap the ballot boxes so that the vote-counters have fixed votes to count.

Its hilarious of how sure you are that its not possible. You can't know. I am just curious to see who does and doesn't trust the Government and their judgment or lack there-of. I think they are incompetent f**k-tards.

I'm sure there is a few good eggs in there but for the most part - they are just useless.

Alex-Face

Riskymove wrote: »

electrocute everyone who votes no?


I like it

Not in the Lisbon vote - I mean't in the experiment - but anyone who votes should be shot unless they can give a valid reason of why they voted.

I am only voting No on principal this time. Like I said - we have already said no. Regardless of who understood the treaty or not - We voted no. Our reasons shouldn't be up for debate or re-voteing, but since they are - Then anyone who votes Yes or No without a reason should be shot

Dinner

Alex-Face wrote: »

I am only voting No on principal this time. Like I said - we have already said no. Regardless of who understood the treaty or not - We voted no. Our reasons shouldn't be up for debate or re-voteing, but since they are - Then anyone who votes Yes or No without a reason should be shot

I presume you are against the idea of democracy where the government addresses the concerns of te public?

Biggins

Do I trust the Irish government in general?
No.

Alex-Face

Alex-Face wrote: »

The only people they have to control is the people count the votes. Even at that. Its even easier to just swap the ballot boxes so that the vote-counters have fixed votes to count.

Will the No campaign not do any tallies?

I thought Declan would be paying fellows a fortune to keep an eye on things. Then again, he had a bad record on that himself...

Alex-Face

Deleted User wrote: »

Will the No campaign not do any tallies?

I thought Declan would be paying fellows a fortune to keep an eye on things. Then again, he had a bad record on that himself...

Who knows? Maybe they will get the fixed boxes too. How will they know. The funny part is - its naive people like yourself who never suspect that anyone is upto anything suspicous in these cases. The Government manipulate, conjure and do what they want and will only show us what they want us to see.

This government isn't fit to govern a country. Just look at the country as evidence. They clearly don't work in our best interest. There stealing right out of our pockets - and you sit there and support them?

humanji

Well, I don't trust the government at all, so I'm not listening to them telling me I should vote Yes. Instead, I read up on everything I could about the treaty, questioned what I didn't understand and weighed up the pros and cons, deciding for myself what is best for Ireland. And that is why I'm voting Yes. The government can still go f*ck themselves, though.

I'm hoping everyone else who votes decides for themselves on the actual information available, whether they vote Yes or No, and then we can all be happy that at least we all voted with everyone best interests at heart. I some how doubt that most people will do that.

Eutow

diverdriver wrote: »

You're wrong about that, some are honest, competent and genuinely believe in doing what they believe is best for the country. Unfortunately that group are mostly the kind of idealogues who would turn the country into a kind of Cuba or something similar to a South American banana republic. So they're as worthless as the rest.

I would have voted yes, last time but didn't because of work committments. Largely due to the stupid lies the no camp told us. Neutrality, abortion, taxes etc. This time, I am voting no, because of the repeated lies of the yes camp. The reality is that if this vote was given to the people of Europe in general it would be a resounding no. That's now enough to ring alarm bells with me.

It's not that I no longer trust the Irish government. I never trusted any Fianna Fail government. But now I don't trust any European government to do what's right.

Plus it isn't democracy to keep voting until the right result is obtained. We voted no last time. That's the democratic will of the people. There it should lie. If the French or the Germans had a chance to vote and voted no. They would not be asked to vote again. But no, we Irish apparently are not allowed the privilege. Purely on that basis, we should vote no again. The treaty needs to go back to the drawing board and this time they should produce something that everyone in Europe can vote on, something we can all support. There is sufficient doubt about this treaty in all quarters to kill it and start again.

Some are honest, but there would not be enough of them to form a government. I don't believe we have a strong enough alternative to the present lot in power.

As for Lisbon, both the No, and the Yes camp tell lies and use propaganda. Abortion was a complete lie from the No side. Anybody that wants an abortion can just go up North or across the Irish Sea anyway. The yes side will probably try to claim that our current problems are the result of voting no the first time, instead of the truth, which was governement waste, and putting all our hopes in an unsustainable economic bubble. I voted no the first time, because I believe the E.U. is undemocratic. A lot of people in Europe feel the same way, for example France and The Netherlands voting no to the Nice Treaty.

Cool Mo D

Alex-Face wrote: »

Ugh, I am not a conspiracist. I just don't trust the Government. And do you REALLY think its not possible for them to find whatever amount of Yes voters to count these votes? Don't kid yourself - it is extremely easy to fix a vote. Even easier when your the Governmet

You don't know what you're talking about. It is very hard to fix a vote - the only way to do it is to sneak fake ballots into the boxes, which would be easily spotted. The count happens at hundreds of different locations around the country, in public, with tallymen from both sides watching the ballots being counted.

Can you explain exactly how the Government could fix a vote without hushing up thousands of people for decades?

Euro_Kraut

Eutow wrote: »

...for example France and The Netherlands voting no to the Nice Treaty.

Great to see more experts on EU Affairs posting here.

Alex-Face

Cool Mo D wrote: »

You don't know what you're talking about. It is very hard to fix a vote - the only way to do it is to sneak fake ballots into the boxes, which would be easily spotted. The count happens at hundreds of different locations around the country, in public, with tallymen from both sides watching the ballots being counted.

Can you explain exactly how the Government could fix a vote without hushing up thousands of people for decades?

The easiest way is to - like you said - sneak fake ballots...and if you think its easy fair enough. And there is no real way to convince you so I won't try. My opinion however is - it can be done. Nothing is impossible - especially fixing political matters.

thebman

I don't think the Irish government would be arsed fixing a vote TBH.

Why would they risk getting caught when they have it so easy ATM?

Eutow

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

Great to see more experts on EU Affairs posting here.

I wouldn't go that far....:)

Cool Mo D

Alex-Face wrote: »

The easiest way is to - like you said - sneak fake ballots...and if you think its easy fair enough. And there is no real way to convince you so I won't try. My opinion however is - it can be done. Nothing is impossible - especially fixing political matters.

It can be done - in the same way as everyone winning the Lotto this weekend is possible. You haven't come up with a way that the Government could do it without being spotted, which really would be almost impossible.

Alex-Face

Alex-Face wrote: »

Who knows?

Ah well, sure much better jumping to some big conspiracy theory rather than making a simple enquiry or two I guess.

Alex-Face wrote: »

its naive people like yourself who never suspect that anyone is upto anything suspicous in these cases.

You know me so well.

Now maybe you can make a simple enquiry as to what efforts will be made by the No camp to inspect the opening of boxes, the counting etc.

Of course, maybe the people counting are all cyborgs cleverly retouched to look like civil servants, but if you put tinfoil on your head you'll be able to suss that out...

Alex-Face

Deleted User wrote: »

Ah well, sure much better jumping to some big conspiracy theory rather than making a simple enquiry or two I guess.



You know me so well.

Now maybe you can make a simple enquiry as to what efforts will be made by the No camp to inspect the opening of boxes, the counting etc.

Of course, maybe the people counting are all cyborgs cleverly retouched to look like civil servants, but if you put tinfoil on your head you'll be able to suss that out...

Whatever - what I am saying is people never suspect these things - and it is entirely possible - just because I havn't come up with a method doesn't mean someone else can't.

Dannyboy83

Do I trust them?

No.

The older I get, the more it seems like they are mafioso, all part of one big family and personal gain/profit for the family is their only concern.