"Holding" Midfielder

_blank_ · 17-09-2009 2:45pm #1

OK, so there are a few terms for this type of player.

I mean the kind of Keane/Essien type of thing. Not exactly a holding player, more a box to box type of thing. A "hard man" sort. Vieira.

Gatusso, Senna are also examples.

Thing is, Essien, Gatusso and Senna are all approaching retirement age.

I suppose the closest thing we have in the "prime" age group would be Mascherano of Liverpool, but he doesn't have the passing or shooting range of those other players.

Obi Mikel is another one, who I think with the correct management could be a contender. Also Diarra is very good at it. Yaya Toure, is he the same? (I don't watch enough Spanish football to know).

It's my favourite kind of player though, running the show and not afraid of a bit of the rough either. Stick your head where some people wouldn't put feet.

Who else fits the bill? Hargreaves?

(this better not turn into a pool v manu thread, please.)

Mr Alan · 17-09-2009 2:47pm

Cattermole.

_blank_ · 17-09-2009 2:48pm

Mr Alan wrote: »

Cattermole.

In what sense?

Come on Al, one word replies? You're a better poster than that.

redzerdrog · 17-09-2009 2:48pm

eh what age is essien again???

_blank_ · 17-09-2009 2:50pm

redzerdrog wrote: »

eh what age is essien again???

:eek:

Good grief, I am shocked. He's only 26 (27 in Jan). I withdraw my previous comment about him.

Wow. I though he was older, I must admit.

Dirk_Diggler · 17-09-2009 2:51pm

Was Keane a really good passer? Could he shoot?

Mr Alan · 17-09-2009 2:51pm

Des wrote: »

In what sense?

Come on Al, one word replies? You're a better poster than that.

Poster of the year 2008, according to you :cool:

Very good young player in the mould you described.

Probably a bit more of a ball player from what i've seen, than Mascherano (although i think people underestimate that aspect of his game).

Paleface · 17-09-2009 2:51pm

Essien is only 26 which is year older than Mascherano.

In my view he's the best in that position in the premiership and Chelsea missed him when he was out long term last year.

Can't think of any others than what you've named though.

redzerdrog · 17-09-2009 2:51pm

Des wrote: »

:eek:

Good grief, I am shocked. He's only 26 (27 in Jan). I withdraw my previous comment about him.

Wow. I though he was older, I must admit.

no prob man

dont rate mikel at all btw but think fletcher wouldnt be a bad shout for that type of player

KarlNedCarew · 17-09-2009 2:52pm

Most dutch midfielders.

Pretty much all the dutch teams can field a player that does this

Average-Ro · 17-09-2009 2:52pm

Cambiasso? Haven't seen him play much so I can't be sure. Ditto with Marek Hamsik, but I heard he was that type of player, can anyone confirm?

Miguel Veloso?

Dirk_Diggler · 17-09-2009 2:54pm

De Rossi is up there tbh.

Mitch Connor · 17-09-2009 2:55pm

At the moment, Essien is the best at it.

I think Lass Diarra has good qualities there too.

Fletcher is developing into a great one for United, but not on the level of Essien.

Cattermole has the potential to a very handly box to boxer.

Chelsea seem to want Obi Mikel to be one, but i'm not sure that is how he will end up, seems too attacking minded naturally, imo.

At one stage I thought Gerrard was going to develop into the best of that type around, when he burst onto the scene he was a real box to box player. hasn't developed that way though. I suppose he ain't that bad at what he does do though...

Paleface · 17-09-2009 2:55pm

There seems to be a consensus amongst football pundits in and around the premiership that this type of player is essential in order to have success at the highest level.

Do people here agree with this?

Average-Ro · 17-09-2009 2:56pm

Freddy Gaurin:cool:

Mitch Connor · 17-09-2009 2:56pm

Average-Ro wrote: »

Cambiasso? Haven't seen him play much so I can't be sure. Ditto with Marek Hamsik, but I heard he was that type of player, can anyone confirm?

Miguel Veloso?

I heard Hamsik was more like Lampard - AM with a great shot. Can stick a foot in when needed and doesn't mind doing it, but not a box to box player, as I would understand it.

Paleface · 17-09-2009 2:57pm

Thought of another one!!

Flamini was a box to box type player for Arsenal.

Frisbee · 17-09-2009 2:58pm

For me Essein is the best in the World in that position.

Followed closely by Yaya.

Average-Ro · 17-09-2009 2:59pm

Mitch Connor wrote: »

I heard Hamsik was more like Lampard - AM with a great shot. Can stick a foot in when needed and doesn't mind doing it, but not a box to box player, as I would understand it.

Ah right, thanks for that. THe only time I saw him was in a round up clip of Slovakia's last World Cup Qualifier, not something to judge him off.

Xavi6 · 17-09-2009 3:00pm

Essien is the best in the world by a considerable margin imo.

De Jong does a good job for us when he plays and also for the Dutch. Great a breaking up the play and doesn't shy away from a tackle.

Hard to think of any young up and coming players in that position who could be described as 'world class'.

JPA · 17-09-2009 3:00pm

Paleface wrote: »

There seems to be a consensus amongst football pundits in and around the premiership that this type of player is essential in order to have success at the highest level.

Do people here agree with this?

I think so, and I think Wigan will be fighting relegation because they sold Cattermole AND Michael Brown.
Boro sold Cattermole and Boateng and got relegated.

I think some younger managers don't appreciate the importance of these type of players.

_blank_ · 17-09-2009 3:09pm

Paleface wrote: »

Do people here agree with this?

No, not essential, but definitely a player more suited to the more physical side of the game is a bonus.

Play with two of them, and you are restricted in attack, play with none and you leave the defence a bit exposed.

KarlNedCarew · 17-09-2009 3:10pm

Xavi6 wrote: »

Hard to think of any young up and coming players in that position who could be described as 'world class'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isma%C3%AFl_Aissati

I've herad good things about him

Not sure he's the best at the "holding" part

But his passing and shoooting are apparently top notch

A Primal Nut · 17-09-2009 3:11pm

Paleface wrote: »

There seems to be a consensus amongst football pundits in and around the premiership that this type of player is essential in order to have success at the highest level.

Do people here agree with this?

Most premiership clubs like to go with one box-to-box player and one holding midfielder. Arsene Wenger in particular: Petit/Vieria, Gilberto/Vieria and now Song/Denilson.

Personally I prefer Abou Diaby to Song or Denilson though; can win the ball and use his strength to great effect defensive effect, and also he makes plenty of forward runs with or without the ball to get into good positions and set up his opponents. Got a nice assist last night. Only problem is that due to constant injuries to Nasri, Walcott and Arshavin; he gets stuck out on the wing a lot, hes still good there but its not his best position. I genuinely think he is a great player, much better than Denilson who never seems to do anything.

I would have thought Lassana Diarra was more of a holding, ball-winning easy pass to his teammates type player than a box-to-box midfielder. Same with Yaya Toure.

_blank_ · 17-09-2009 3:11pm

KarlNedCarew wrote: »

I've herad good things about him

Not sure he's the best at the "holding" part

But his passing and shoooting are apparently top notch

Who?

KarlNedCarew · 17-09-2009 3:12pm

Des wrote: »

Who?

OOPS link added

Boggles · 17-09-2009 3:14pm

Paleface wrote: »

There seems to be a consensus amongst football pundits in and around the premiership that this type of player is essential in order to have success at the highest level.

Do people here agree with this?

Absolutely not. You only have to look at United the past 3 seasons to dispell that myth.

Personally I hate the idea of employing a limited footballing muscle man in midfield whose soul purpose is to break up play and give it to players who can play.

These type players for me are not real footballers.

For me the box to box midfielders are the way to go Keane / Essien.

JPA · 17-09-2009 3:16pm

Would it be fair to say the concept of a holding midfielder is a new thing in the last say 10 years?
For example Makelele is the obvious example, barely crossed the half way line, yet was a highly lauded midfielder.

Tackling and physical strength were always just a part of being a central midfielder rather than being a specific role.
I know the OP is talking about box to box players rather than just defensive midfielders but there is a distinction.
Mascherano and Makelele are similar players form me, both play very little part in attack, compared to say Essien, who will attack as part of the team.

gimmick · 17-09-2009 3:18pm

Yaya Toure for me is the best holding midfielder in the world. Also the most under rated in that position. Mascherano is excellent as well in that role.

Lassana Diarra? Please? His name is not worthy of being near a list that includes the likes of Essien, Toure etc etc etc

Mitch Connor · 17-09-2009 3:19pm

Boggles wrote: »

Absolutely not. You only have to look at United the past 3 seasons to dispell that myth.

Personally I hate the idea of employing a limited footballing muscle man in midfield whose soul purpose is to break up play and give it to players who can play.

These type players for me are not real footballers.

For me the box to box midfielders are the way to go Keane / Essien.

The fact we didn't have someone (Fletcher and Hargreaves) capable of performing that role is a big part of the reason for a shambolic efforts to defend our CL title against Barcelona imo.

Fletcher was a big part of our success in the games vs Chelsea and Arsenal last season, against Arsenal most seasons to be fair.

In most games, for the top sides, you don't need someone who job it is to protect the defence and solely break up play before passing it on, but in the biggest games you generally do imo.

James Forde · 17-09-2009 3:19pm

Dirk_Diggler wrote: »

Was Keane a really good passer? Could he shoot?

Yes and Yes

CHD · 17-09-2009 3:20pm

Des wrote: »

:eek:

Good grief, I am shocked. He's only 26 (27 in Jan). I withdraw my previous comment about him.

Wow. I though he was older, I must admit.

Phew, thought you really lost it.

Boggles · 17-09-2009 3:22pm

Mitch Connor wrote: »

The fact we didn't have someone (Fletcher and Hargreaves) capable of performing that role is a big part of the reason for a shambolic efforts to defend our CL title against Barcelona imo.

Fletcher was a big part of our success in the games vs Chelsea and Arsenal last season, against Arsenal most seasons to be fair.

In most games, for the top sides, you don't need someone who job it is to protect the defence and solely break up play before passing it on, but in the biggest games you generally do imo.

When we won it a couple of years ago we had no need for a central midfield hardman, because you know what, quality footballers will always shine through.

Our midfield duo of Scholes and Carrick were more than enough to do the double, so much that when Hargreaves did make an appearance his best display was on the right wing.

We lost the CL against Barca, not because we missed Hargreaves or Fletcher, we lost it because Ferguson picked the wrong team.

Edit: Although they can play the role, Hargeaves and Fletcher are much better footballers than just midfield muscle men.

KarlNedCarew · 17-09-2009 3:25pm

JPA wrote: »

Would it be fair to say the concept of a holding midfielder is a new thing in the last say 10 years?

Not entirely you only have to look at dunga

HoPpiE · 17-09-2009 3:29pm

KarlNedCarew wrote: »

Not entirely you only have to look at dunga

Ya, I read that on Wikipedia too.

JPA · 17-09-2009 3:30pm

KarlNedCarew wrote: »

Not entirely you only have to look at dunga

Yes, a good example, maybe it's just that the role is more discussed now, or maybe I'm just wrong.

Mr. Presentable · 17-09-2009 3:32pm

Felipe Melo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5l4HiUKA-_I

17-09-2009 3:35pm

Boggles wrote: »

Absolutely not. You only have to look at United the past 3 seasons to dispell that myth.

Personally I hate the idea of employing a limited footballing muscle man in midfield whose soul purpose is to break up play and give it to players who can play.

These type players for me are not real footballers.

For me the box to box midfielders are the way to go Keane / Essien.

Fletcher ?

wynters · 17-09-2009 3:35pm

Nigel Reo-Coker.

Boggles · 17-09-2009 3:36pm

rarnes1 wrote: »

Fletcher ?

Could you expand?

eirebhoy · 17-09-2009 3:39pm

For me a holding midfielder are those that 'hold' back and rarely join attacks (which we call the holding role). I'd class Pirlo as a holding midfielder even though he's a playmaker who isn't very good at defending.

Midfielders that you're all describing I'd just class as defensive midfielders. Pirlo and Carrick hold more than Gattuso and Hargreaves but the latter are much more defensive.

Anyway a world class defensive midfielder that rarely gets a mention imo is Tymoshchuk.

Paleface · 17-09-2009 3:39pm

nipplenuts wrote: »

Felipe Melo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5l4HiUKA-_I

I wish Arsenal had of signed him during the summer. Rumours were rife that he was on his way!

He seemed to get a lot of time on the ball in that montage though with little or no players prepared to go to ground when tackling him!

Nalz · 17-09-2009 3:40pm

bryanjf wrote: »

Yes and Yes

well in his earlier years he was something of a player that Gerrard is now, only not as good in front of goal but better in the tackle.

17-09-2009 3:43pm

Boggles wrote: »

Could you expand?

Isn't Fletcher's main aim to break up play and give it to others who can play??

KarlNedCarew · 17-09-2009 3:43pm

JPA wrote: »

Yes, a good example, maybe it's just that the role is more discussed now, or maybe I'm just wrong.

I think it has to do with the emergence of box to box defenders such as essiens team mates ashley cole and bosingwa

Boggles · 17-09-2009 3:45pm

rarnes1 wrote: »

Isn't Fletcher's main aim to break up play and give it to others who can play??

No

Scored a couple vital goals for us last season, he is no way a midfield muscle man in the sense I was describing.

Fletcher can play ball.

anplaya · 17-09-2009 3:48pm

what about xavi?he seems to me to be a creative holding midfielder

17-09-2009 3:50pm

Boggles wrote: »

No

Scored a couple vital goals for us last season, he is no way a midfield muscle man in the sense I was describing.

Fletcher can play ball.

yeah but isn't known for his goalscoring or dribbling skill.

His main aim is to stop the opposition playing and let Scholes and Carrick play ball.

eirebhoy · 17-09-2009 3:52pm

anplaya wrote: »

what about xavi?he seems to me to be a creative holding midfielder

Xavi had the holding role under Rijkaard but Guardiola has given him more freedom. Instead of taking the ball from defence he's now more of a central playmaker.
It shows you how many different roles a central midfielder could play.

Boggles · 17-09-2009 3:53pm

rarnes1 wrote: »

yeah but isn't known for his goalscoring or dribbling skill.

His main aim is to stop the opposition playing and let Scholes and Carrick play ball.

No that is one of the aspects of his game.

A muscle man could never play on the wing for example.

Fletcher can play the defensive midfielder, but he is a much better footballer than that and can play a variety of roles.

KarlNedCarew · 17-09-2009 3:56pm

Boggles wrote: »

No that is one of the aspects of his game.

A muscle man could never play on the wing for example.

Fletcher can play the defensive midfielder, but he is a much better footballer than that and can play a variety of roles.

I wouldn't say that he excels on the wing tho.

His best work is done in the centre but I have to agree that he's no muscle man like keane and vieira, he just doesn't impose himself on the game like they did/do (I apologise for the cliché)

"Holding" Midfielder

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