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Wall St Journal - Ireland has no reason to fear the consequences of No vote on Lisbon

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    #92
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    I'll respond to the quotes from my own post in a little while (busy at the moment, sorry) but I just wanted to chip in here:

    This is a seriously messed up viewpoint in my own view. The views expressed by the Irish people in this referendum should not represent whether our government can "sell us" a treaty or not. It does not signify that our government couldn't sell it, it signifies that we made up our own minds about it and we decided that we didn't like it. Again, that's democratic. The people make the decision. What any party says to "sell" either side of the treaty should be irrelevant - all that should be relevant are the facts about what the text of the treaty will do if it is put into practice, and what will not happen if it's not put into practice.

    Which has so been what this referendum has been about.

    amused,
    Scofflaw


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    #93
    marco_polo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,079 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    I'll respond to the quotes from my own post in a little while (busy at the moment, sorry) but I just wanted to chip in here:

    This is a seriously messed up viewpoint in my own view. The views expressed by the Irish people in this referendum should not represent whether our government can "sell us" a treaty or not. It does not signify that our government couldn't sell it, it signifies that we made up our own minds about it and we decided that we didn't like it. Again, that's democratic. The people make the decision. What any party says to "sell" either side of the treaty should be irrelevant - all that should be relevant are the facts about what the text of the treaty will do if it is put into practice, and what will not happen if it's not put into practice.

    Well it wasn't really my terminology I was simply responding to the language used by the previous poster, however (For the next bit I am going to ask you to close you eyes and imagine something other than Fianna Fail in power) it is the Governements duty to make decisions that they think are in the best interests of the country. And in other countries that is exactly what happens with regard to the EU treaties in general.

    Whereas we pay zero attention to eight years of negotiation by our Government, and when it comes time to vote we don't bother to inform ourselves properly and reject it for a myriad of irrelevant reasons. On top of this you have any number of vested interests misinforming the public completly on the contents of the treaty. Given all this, if the Government believes that the treaty is in the best way forward then why on earth should they not be able to put the positive case for it?


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    #94
    meglome
    Registered Users Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    meglome wrote: »
    Totiletroll given your interest in conspiracy theories I would have thought a Rupert Murdoch owned newspaper would be the last thing you'd trust?

    Toiletroll I'm a but worried that your going to start quoting Fox News too, just let me know you're okay.


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    #95
    dresden8
    Registered Users Posts: 3,290 ✭✭✭dresden8


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    I have seen no evidence of a thinly-veiled threat (nor of an overt one).

    You haven't been paying attention
    Scofflaw wrote: »
    That may not impact dresden8's livelihood, but it will affect a lot of people's, particularly with the WTO, CFP and CAP all up for renegotiation.


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    #96
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    dresden8 wrote: »
    You haven't been paying attention

    Maybe it will weaken the EU's position in those talks and negotiations because it will be seen as wounded?

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #97
    marco_polo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,079 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    dresden8 wrote: »
    You haven't been paying attention

    Well that is the pickle the Yes camp isn't it, everything is scaremongering. Even pointing out the most the basic principles of negotiation in the real world.


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    #98
    dresden8
    Registered Users Posts: 3,290 ✭✭✭dresden8


    marco_polo wrote: »
    Well that is the pickle the Yes camp isn't it, everything is scaremongering. Even pointing out the most the basic principles of negotiation in the real world.

    So, what's "on message" these days?

    Lisbon is a nothing, an administrative tidying up, as such.

    Apart from if it's not passed, nothing to fear, except detrimental affects in
    WTO, CFP and CAP

    But we don't fear these, because they're a nothing, it's just administrative, apart from the consequences, whatever they might be.

    Is it any wonder people are confused, and disbelieving.


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    #99
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    dresden8 wrote: »
    So, what's "on message" these days?

    Lisbon is a nothing, an administrative tidying up, as such.

    Apart from if it's not passed, nothing to fear, except detrimental affects in


    But we don't fear these, because they're a nothing, it's just administrative, apart from the consequences, whatever they might be.

    Is it any wonder people are confused, and disbelieving.

    We need a strong EU for the WTO talks. Another No vote will be seen as a weakened EU, in turmoil, who can't even get a Yes to small changes.

    Think about that for a second and the motives behind the article in this thread.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #100
    ixtlan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,213 ✭✭✭ixtlan


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    This is a seriously messed up viewpoint in my own view. The views expressed by the Irish people in this referendum should not represent whether our government can "sell us" a treaty or not. It does not signify that our government couldn't sell it, it signifies that we made up our own minds about it and we decided that we didn't like it. Again, that's democratic. The people make the decision. What any party says to "sell" either side of the treaty should be irrelevant - all that should be relevant are the facts about what the text of the treaty will do if it is put into practice, and what will not happen if it's not put into practice.

    We can argue this... but would you care to respond to the question of a loss of goodwill towards the people who insist on sending the same politicans to Europe and insist on electing the same politicans to national government and then refuse to endorse what has been negotiated on their behalf?

    You are correct that the people can choose to reject a treaty, but if we are not sending anyone else to negotiate on our behalf, we make our politicans look powerless and ourselves look idiotic. Let's not use the word "sell" if you don't like it. Let's rephrase...

    If we vote no, the other EU states will have no confidence that the Irish people will accept any further treaty. Since all the Irish parties thought Lisbon was a good deal it's hard to see how they can make it better. Sinn Fein would certainly change it for the better or worse, but we won't elect them, so how does that make the Irish electorate look? Foolish, fickle and unpredictable, leaving it impossible to deal with the people they continue to elect but apparently do not trust. The best solution... exclude Ireland as much as possible.

    Note: In this scenario I'm not saying the people are foolish and fickle for saying no.... but rather for saying no and yet expecting the same people to represent them.

    Ix.


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