Green Party will pull out if members vote down NAMA/Programme for Government

turgon

Link: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0917/breaking6.htm

Green Party leader John Gormley said his party will pull out of Government if its party members reject Nama and the new programme for government at the Green Party’s convention scheduled to take place on October 10th.

This might give the grassroots an opportunity to pull the plug on Government. Given the amount of discontent one hears about amongst the grassroots Im surprised more hasnt been made of this comment, which was given on radio earlier this afternoon. Could this be the end, or will the green party realize they are going nowhere and stay in for the long run?

Euro_Kraut

Very interesting! He has turned the vote into a vote on government participation rather than one on NAMA.

My hunch is the Green rank and file will vote against NAMA. The prog for government vote might be carried. But to be honest if the coalition cannot pass the NAMA bill they are effectivly finished.

Biggins

Start praying NOW folks.

Liam Byrne

Given the u-turn that the Greens pulled on their members and the public about going INTO government with the parasites, I won't hold my breath....

.......but I will keep my fingers crossed!

maynooth_rules

I have everything crossed but i don't hold much faith. The Greens have proven themselves to be completly spineless, and most of their members are probably aware that the party will become a pointless force after the next election. I voted for Mary White of the Greens last time and i am still absolutly disgusted with myself for it.

bmaxi

I have to agree, the gutless Greens are history and they know it. After the debacle that was the local elections how could they think otherwise? No doubt they will hold on to the big salaries for as long as possible, just adding insult to injury by insisting on penal carbon taxes on the Irish taxpayer while China, Russia and half the rest of the world burn everything they can get their hands on.
P*ss off and never come back and good riddance.

thebman

How does one get a vote on the future of the country at this green meeting?

If I join tomorrow do I qualify?

Sign me up if its that easy

MeatProduct

Now would be a good time for us to write letters to our local Green representatives. Sent mine off yesterday.

Nick

Riskymove

tbh I think this is a form of coercion by gormley, he is certainly learning about politics

bmaxi

Riskymove wrote: »

tbh I think this is a form of coercion by gormley, he is certainly learning about politics

It's a sort of "Damned if we do........." situation for the Greens but it had been assumed, until Sargent's little about face, that one thing the Greens had was a measure of integrity.
Gormley and Co. have proven adept at taking it up the a*se from Biffo and like any salacious partner you never know what infection you'll pick up. It remains to be seen if the Green grass roots (pardon the pun) have maintained some of the integrity prostituted by the leadership.

is_that_so

Riskymove wrote: »

tbh I think this is a form of coercion by gormley, he is certainly learning about politics

I think it's more the cute hoor Dan Boyle behind it. One comment I read at the time of their Lisbon vote was that many of the main objectors had left the party so the 2/3 majority needed was always going to be a bit easier to get. The Greens want to get credit for anything in NAMA that they can claim as green policy. Once they can do that the pitch will be a little easier. The threat is part of a negotiating posturing IMO however with FG now all but resigned to "aggressively pursuing amendments" to NAMA, it means they could have an easier time of it.

In my view much of the anger vented at NAMA was based on the very wild and very loose speculation on what NAMA would be. Now that we can see the framework it's an opportunity to attempt to take away as much of the risk as possible by getting suitable amendments from all quarters into it.

What people also need to remember is that it has taken us six months to get to this point. For better or for worse NAMA is where we will probably be headed. Inaction is not an option nor is another protracted period to sort out an alternative if NAMA doesn't go through.

Ste.phen

thebman wrote: »

How does one get a vote on the future of the country at this green meeting?

If I join tomorrow do I qualify?

Sign me up if its that easy

Need to be a member 6 months, I believe

ynotdu

Assuming the Greens did pull out what way would the figures stack up for the Govt?(that is if the Independants and FF TD's outside of the whip continued to vote with them)

Another thing i,d like to know is. what do other postors think about the idea that in the event the Govt does fall do You think the President should exercise her right to allow other parties a chance to form a govt without an election?

It seems like a lousy time in our history to have an election:(

Red Alert

I voted for Eamonn Ryan No. 1 and will no do so again because of this.

is_that_so

ynotdu wrote: »

Assuming the Greens did pull out what way would the figures stack up for the Govt?(that is if the Independants and FF TD's outside of the whip continued to vote with them)

Another thing i,d like to know is. what do other postors think about the idea that in the event the Govt does fall do You think the President should exercise her right to allow other parties a chance to form a govt without an election?

It seems like a lousy time in our history to have an election:(

Yes a very bad time indeed but the most likely outcome of the Greens pulling out. Labour/FG stand at 72, the same as FF. Balance this against the 85 seats plus that FG/Labour would probably get in a new election and the opportunity to completely humiliate FF you can see why they would favour that option. It would also give them a new mandate where the public would be voting on our current predicament and not where we seemed to be in 2007.

A "new" government in this Dail would have to come up with its own plan and budget which would run the risk of being defeated. There's no guarantee that a FG/Labour based government would come to agreement on an alternative to NAMA and as for the rest of them who knows. In short it would an awful mess. Secretly, for all their hounding of the Greens, they must be hoping NAMA does pass as it'll avoid them having to get a plan through.

Euro_Kraut

Red Alert wrote: »

I voted for Eamonn Ryan No. 1 and will no do so again because of this.

You won't vote for him they vote to support or if they vote not to support it?

SeanW

is_that_so wrote: »

What people also need to remember is that it has taken us six months to get to this point. For better or for worse NAMA is where we will probably be headed. Inaction is not an option nor is another protracted period to sort out an alternative if NAMA doesn't go through

I don't understand this - the dogs on the street know that FF is only interested in bailing out the property developers, and the banks. Are you seriously suggesting that we should run with the bailout-the-developers plan simply because we don't have time to think of something better?

There have been banking maladies before in human history, and most of the time they self corrected over time. That's how the free market works - if there are a load of creditworthy businesses and people looking to pay a nice price for access to finance, someone will presumably set up a bank to provide it.

If government is to get involved, it should be to ensure that anyone who wants to set up a private "good bank" should be able to do so with little hassle, or failing that should look at other ways of making finance available such as setting up a good bank of its own. This would be a lot cheaper than buying a whole load of bad debts owed by FFs developer buddies.

NAMA is little more than a bailout for the fat cats AND it will ensure that next time there is a bubble, the banks will act like an even bigger bunch of tools because they're "too important" to be let fail, even if we have to destroy ourselves to protect them. As it is, the NAMA plan will likely squander the wealth of at least a generation for less than nothing.

I voted for a Green (no. 2) in the last election and if the Greens want to get another vote from me in my lifetime, they had better pull the plug on this farce!

Liam Byrne

is_that_so wrote: »

In my view much of the anger vented at NAMA was based on the very wild and very loose speculation on what NAMA would be. Now that we can see the framework it's an opportunity to attempt to take away as much of the risk as possible by getting suitable amendments from all quarters into it.

It's true that SOME of the anger was based on the fact that it was vague, but the REMAINING anger is that FF are being so flaithulach with OUR money, and are - as has been pointed out - privatising profits while socialising losses.

Why didn't they offer the CURRENT MARKET VALUE; thereby getting the bad loans off the banks books, while simultaneously acknowledging that bad decisions gets you in the ****, and it's up to you to sort it out ?

is_that_so wrote: »

What people also need to remember is that it has taken us six months to get to this point. For better or for worse NAMA is where we will probably be headed. Inaction is not an option nor is another protracted period to sort out an alternative if NAMA doesn't go through.

And why, pray tell, has it taken six months ? I mean, the **** in FF hit us with TWO budgets almost immediately.......it's really odd that they dropped this "EMERGENCY" legislation on us just before they fecked off on a 3-month break! :mad: Wallop Joe Soap because of the "crisis", but feck off on hols when it comes to sorting out those who got us into this mess.

The FACT is that we should be paying THE CURRENT MARKET VALUE; no amount of lies is going to change the fact that we are paying 7 BILLION over the odds for stuff that NO-ONE WANTS, and that the banks and developers who landed us in this crap will be able to continue.

The ONLY just option was to set up a STATE BANK using the money (similar to a Credit Union - maybe even based on that platform) and let the **** who got their bonuses and overpaid fat-cat salaries and whatever other perks rot in hell as with all "commercial" entities where dodgy decisions are made.

Riskymove

Liam Byrne wrote: »

.

Why didn't they offer the CURRENT MARKET VALUE;

the only way to know the curretn market value is to sell the property and there is little selling or buyin going on at the moment

the point is that the current market value is only being estimated and its only opinion that its lower than Lenihan's figures...but no one really knows

Liam Byrne

Riskymove wrote: »

the only way to know the curretn market value is to sell the property and there is little selling or buyin going on at the moment

How about this for a novel idea ? ASK someone what they'd be prepared to pay for it.....

Or are we so far up the arses of the banks that anyone having the gall to suggest what something is worth - AS IS, not as an "investment" - would be immediately denied the possible finance for it because they'd pissed off the banks ?

Riskymove wrote: »

the point is that the current market value is only being estimated and its only opinion that its lower than Lenihan's figures...but no one really knows

Ah yes - Lenihan's figures; the ones that were revised so much from last October's budget that he had to screw us with a subsequent budget......I think I'd trust a dartboard more than that idiot.

Riskymove

Liam Byrne wrote: »

How about this for a novel idea ? ASK someone what they'd be prepared to pay for it.....

er....what?......seriously....what?

is_that_so

SeanW wrote: »

I don't understand this - the dogs on the street know that FF is only interested in bailing out the property developers, and the banks. Are you seriously suggesting that we should run with the bailout-the-developers plan simply because we don't have time to think of something better?



If government is to get involved, it should be to ensure that anyone who wants to set up a private "good bank" should be able to do so with little hassle, or failing that should look at other ways of making finance available such as setting up a good bank of its own. This would be a lot cheaper than buying a whole load of bad debts owed by FFs developer buddies.

NAMA is little more than a bailout for the fat cats AND it will ensure that next time there is a bubble, the banks will act like an even bigger bunch of tools because they're "too important" to be let fail, even if we have to destroy ourselves to protect them. As it is, the NAMA plan will likely squander the wealth of at least a generation for less than nothing.

I voted for a Green (no. 2) in the last election and if the Greens want to get another vote from me in my lifetime, they had better pull the plug on this farce!

If NAMA fails to pass due to the Greens pulling out and we get a new government we'll still need a plan. Judging by the interest and support the alternative plans have generated it could be some time before we get one.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

It's true that SOME of the anger was based on the fact that it was vague, but the REMAINING anger is that FF are being so flaithulach with OUR money, and are - as has been pointed out - privatising profits while socialising losses.

Why didn't they offer the CURRENT MARKET VALUE; thereby getting the bad loans off the banks books, while simultaneously acknowledging that bad decisions gets you in the ****, and it's up to you to sort it out ?



And why, pray tell, has it taken six months ? I mean, the **** in FF hit us with TWO budgets almost immediately.......it's really odd that they dropped this "EMERGENCY" legislation on us just before they fecked off on a 3-month break! :mad: Wallop Joe Soap because of the "crisis", but feck off on hols when it comes to sorting out those who got us into this mess.

The FACT is that we should be paying THE CURRENT MARKET VALUE; no amount of lies is going to change the fact that we are paying 7 BILLION over the odds for stuff that NO-ONE WANTS, and that the banks and developers who landed us in this crap will be able to continue.

The ONLY just option was to set up a STATE BANK using the money (similar to a Credit Union - maybe even based on that platform) and let the **** who got their bonuses and overpaid fat-cat salaries and whatever other perks rot in hell as with all "commercial" entities where dodgy decisions are made.

Well NAMA looks like it'll be the way we'll be going.That said I do agree about the unacceptable delay. That said an alternative plan to NAMA would take time to agree and set up and I'm not so sure the obvious choice for Govt -Labour/FG would be be able to do that. Bruton has also hinted at putting forward amendments which is why I reckon that they will still oppose it but hope the Greens vote for it.

Liam Byrne

is_that_so wrote: »

If NAMA fails to pass due to the Greens pulling out and we get a new government we'll still need a plan. Judging by the interest and support the alternative plans have generated it could be some time before we get one.

I'd MUCH prefer a delay followed by a fair and equitable one, rather than a bailout that'll cost us €54,000,000,000!!!!!

is_that_so wrote: »

Well NAMA looks like it'll be the way we'll be going.That said I do agree about the unacceptable delay.

Probably part of the plan; delay it for "long enough" so that FF can trot out the line that it's too late to come up with a better alternative.

is_that_so wrote: »

That said an alternative plan to NAMA would take time to agree and set up and I'm not so sure the obvious choice for Govt -Labour/FG would be be able to do that.

Again, an immediate supposition that Labour & FG couldn't do a better job than the half-assed mess of lies and half-truths currently being trotted out.

I'm not sure that Labour and FG couldn't come up with a better plan......so that part of your argument is moot, as both points of view are OPINION ONLY and therefore completely devoid of facts.

is_that_so wrote: »

Bruton has also hinted at putting forward amendments which is why I reckon that they will still oppose it but hope the Greens vote for it.

Again, "you reckon".......

I know it's an opinion board, but given that you seem to support NAMA, would you care to include any FACTS that might indicate why you're in favour of it ?

Liam Byrne

Riskymove wrote: »

er....what?......seriously....what?

If you were running a business and had some stock that wasn't selling, and no-one would buy it, the USUAL approach is to either (a) drop the price to cut your losses and get rid of it or (b) accept all offers.

Offering it at a "discount" :rolleyes: of more than it's worth is not (usually) acceptable.

If it were (as it should be) a "liquidation sale" of banks and developers assets, they'd take whatever the hell they could get for it.

bangersandmash

Riskymove wrote: »

the only way to know the curretn market value is to sell the property and there is little selling or buyin going on at the moment

the point is that the current market value is only being estimated and its only opinion that its lower than Lenihan's figures...but no one really knows

I'm not sure I follow. According to the DoF figures, NAMA will pay €54bn for loans backed by property they value at €47bn. So even by their own admission they aren't paying the market rate as they define it?

As for know one really knowing, well if I was in doubt about making a major financial transaction I would err on the side of caution. Considering the risk here, would a cautious conservative valuation not be appropriate?

is_that_so

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I'd MUCH prefer a delay followed by a fair and equitable one, rather than a bailout that'll cost us €54,000,000,000!!!!!



Probably part of the plan; delay it for "long enough" so that FF can trot out the line that it's too late to come up with a better alternative.

Banks have toxic debt. We need to take care of it in some way and it needs to be done sooner rather than later.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Again, an immediate supposition that Labour & FG couldn't do a better job than the half-assed mess of lies and half-truths currently being trotted out.

I'm not sure that Labour and FG couldn't come up with a better plan......so that part of your argument is moot, as both points of view are OPINION ONLY and therefore completely devoid of facts.

They have two very different plans so your point here is what exactly? My point is that it would be difficult to reconcile their current positions and reach agreement.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Again, "you reckon".......

I know it's an opinion board, but given that you seem to support NAMA, would you care to include any FACTS that might indicate why you're in favour of it ?

I don't support NAMA per se but I don't necessarily have a problem with it. I also believe that it will be passed so being anti-NAMA is really something of a waste of time. Some of what is proposed is logical and it is a solution although it is predicated on very unclear valuations. That is my concern but there are at least three weeks before a vote comes about and ample opportunity for all parties to propose amendments to it. In theory it could work as long as what has been proposed is actually credible but neither you , I nor any other Mystic Meg can say if it will work.

My comments and thoughts on another thread.
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62150697&postcount=13

Biggins

This is THEE one LAST final chance for the Greens to gain back some form of credibility with a show of balls - to put it bluntly.
Up to now with Gormless Gormley in charge with his Dail co-conspirators they have been Fianna Fails lapdog.

If they screw up this absolutely final chance to win back the electorate - they truly are fcuked!
Both now and for a VERY long time for the foreseeable future. At the next general election and the next one and the next one and the...

ynotdu

Biggins wrote: »

This is THEE one LAST final chance for the Greens to gain back some form of credibility with a show of balls - to put it bluntly.
Up to now with Gormless Gormley in charge with his Dail co-conspirators they have been Fianna Fails lapdog.

If they screw up this absolutely final chance to win back the electorate - they truly are fcuked!
Both now and for a VERY long time for the foreseeable future. At the next general election and the next one and the next one and the...

Hi,ya Biggins.
Eamonn Ryan said that the green party is based on an 'idea'
if nothing else i would agree with him on that(the German greens were wiped out but came storming back,albeit with diffrient faces.

honestly though would,nt an election now just destabelise IRELAND.inc even more:eek:

Biggins

ynotdu wrote: »

Hi, ya Biggins.
Eamonn Ryan said that the green party is based on an 'idea'
if nothing else i would agree with him on that(the German greens were wiped out but came storming back,albeit with different faces.

honestly though would,nt an election now just destabilise IRELAND.inc even more :eek:

Well, I'm sure the banks will still be open, business will still be running or try to still run.
Shops in your high street will continue to sell. The trains and services will continue to operate.

I'm sick of this threat "O' its all going to fall down upon our ears if FF is forced into an election!"
Cobblers. The world will survive and life will go on in Ireland.
Its just a VERY handy threat for FF to hang over our heads which by coincidence :rolleyes: keeps that FF shower in power.

ynotdu

Well Bigs it's true that Govts collapse and the Sky does not drop in!

How many has Italy and Japan had since ww2?

but as an American politicion was caught on microphone saying"Its all about perception"(abroad):D

Idbatterim

if the greens had pulled out of government over nama, there would have to be a re election, where the greens would have probably won far more seats... given the fact they could have righted the wrongs and chose not to, they need never ever knock on my door looking for a vote. This thing is far bigger than any political figure or party, for the greater good, the plug should and could have been pulled by the greens and the whole things could have been ended once and for all! what a disgusting failure / let down!