Panorama Holiday Booking

Clockers

Hi all,
Did anyone book a holiday with Panorama last night to Madeira at the stated price of 98 euro??!! This was the advertised price on their website and booking was confirmed via e-mail. This morning however a call came to say there was a web error...however I explained I made the booking in good faith, gave credit card details and received a confirmation etc.

Did anyone else book??

Is there anyone with a good legal brain to point us in the right direction and getting them to honour the booking, moreso??

Cheers

Stillnotworking

Something similar was on screen here a while ago with a couch in Argos, I think the original poster won in the end. Its a bit of a read but may be worth it.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055467801&highlight=argos+sofa

Jev/N

Having been studying contract law for the last few months for the upcoming professional law exams, this seems like a typical problem question we face!

Legally, they will have two arguments:

1. They made a mistake in the stated price and you acted on that mistake. However, you knew there was something awry with it as it was obvious it shouldn't have been that price but went ahead anyways.

or

2. If the former argument doesn't succeed, they will argue that a valid contract never came into existence for lack of acceptance (of your offer) on their part. This area can tend to be quite grey but in my opinion, there isn't a valid contract here. Those confirmation e-mails are sent automatically and there needs to be intention on their part, in conjunction with communication, for valid acceptance.


In fairness most of the above is moot at best as this will never proceed to the small claims court unless at your behest. If I were you, I would argue it with them but leave it after that as it may end up being too much hassle.

The best arguments you could make are that either the advertisement was specific and definite enough (containing terms and conditions etc) to be a unilateral offer which you could accept or that the mistake (as in point 1) was not obvious to you as it seemed to be a part of an end of summer sale or something to that effect.

Best of luck with it anyway!

ScouseMouse

I agree with above but would just like to point something out.

The travel industry is in crisis. Just this week, I read in the paper that Stein and Slattery Travel have folded.

Obviously, its very tough out there for everyone. Whatever you may think, there is still right and wrong and I personally believe you you are wrong to even try to enforce a mistake like this.

KARMA ?

penexpers

Clockers wrote: »

Hi all,
Did anyone book a holiday with Panorama last night to Madeira at the stated price of 98 euro??!! This was the advertised price on their website and booking was confirmed via e-mail. This morning however a call came to say there was a web error...however I explained I made the booking in good faith, gave credit card details and received a confirmation etc.

Did anyone else book??

Is there anyone with a good legal brain to point us in the right direction and getting them to honour the booking, moreso??

Cheers

I think with all these misprice cases, it comes down to when the contract was formed.

Section 1 of Panorama's terms states

No contract shall be formed between you and Panorama Holidays until you have received confirmation that Panorama has accepted your booking.

They don't state what is an "accepted booking" though.

bryanrmurphy

Jev/N wrote: »

Having been studying contract law for the last few months for the upcoming professional law exams, this seems like a typical problem question we face!

Legally, they will have two arguments:

1. They made a mistake in the stated price and you acted on that mistake. However, you knew there was something awry with it as it was obvious it shouldn't have been that price but went ahead anyways.

or

2. If the former argument doesn't succeed, they will argue that a valid contract never came into existence for lack of acceptance (of your offer) on their part. This area can tend to be quite grey but in my opinion, there isn't a valid contract here. Those confirmation e-mails are sent automatically and there needs to be intention on their part, in conjunction with communication, for valid acceptance.


In fairness most of the above is moot at best as this will never proceed to the small claims court unless at your behest. If I were you, I would argue it with them but leave it after that as it may end up being too much hassle.

The best arguments you could make are that either the advertisement was specific and definite enough (containing terms and conditions etc) to be a unilateral offer which you could accept or that the mistake (as in point 1) was not obvious to you as it seemed to be a part of an end of summer sale or something to that effect.

Best of luck with it anyway!

I take your points on board but they actually processed the payment the next day and it has been taken off my card so it appears that a legally binding contract was effected at that stage. They also amended the booking on two occasions without reference to any problem with the price. Consumer Association is pretty adamant that a legal contract was in place and Panorama's terms and conditions on their own website consolidates this view. The offer was also listed in motre than one place on their website and I booked it in good faith considering it to be a special offer.

Clockers

Thanks guys,

I have similarly have had money taken from my account , seemingly after they have discovered their mistake!!

I seem to remember a fiasco with Aer Lingus recently where low price flights to the states became quite a media story. From memory they had to honour the booking?? I may be corrected on that one.

The way I look at it is, I entered a legal agreement with them at their stated price, on a website owned and operated by them.
Might have appeared to be a good or even exceptional price...but bear in mind Ryanair offer free flights!!

The latest is they are referring to a clause 8, "alteration by the organiser"...which mentions "force majeure" as one reason amongst others to cancel a contract. There is absolutely nothing with regards to a web error as claimed.

Time will tell.....

parsi

superscouse wrote: »

Obviously, its very tough out there for everyone. Whatever you may think, there is still right and wrong and I personally believe you you are wrong to even try to enforce a mistake like this.

KARMA ?

Maybe the OP considers that s/he is now going to benefit from karma. After all there are many reports of the travel agencies screwing people.

dudara

If the retailer made a genuine error in their pricing, then they can refuse to honour any sales at that price. We've had numerous incidences where that has happened, including the recent debacle with Littlewoods. Check out the term "Invitation to Treat".

The Aer Lingus incident you mentioned was similar, but Aer Lingus decided to offer people flights as goodwill gestures - mainly due to the barrage of public outcry on Joe Duffy (god, retailers must hate that show, even if they make a genuine error, they get slated by misinformed members of the public).

Nody

Aer Lingus dd NOT have to honor it and they ended up offer the flight as cattle class instead of business which many had booked as good will gesture.

MunsterCycling

If the credit card was charged then a contract has been formed.

dudara

They can still refuse the contract, even if they charged your credit card. The contract may not be considered completed until the goods are delivered and accepted.

It's a little grey when it comes to internet shopping, as a transaction can be completed and charged without any human interaction. The mistake may not be immediately noticed by a person.

dirtyaggie

Clockers wrote: »

Hi all,
Did anyone book a holiday with Panorama last night to Madeira at the stated price of 98 euro??!! This was the advertised price on their website and booking was confirmed via e-mail. This morning however a call came to say there was a web error...however I explained I made the booking in good faith, gave credit card details and received a confirmation etc.

Did anyone else book??

Is there anyone with a good legal brain to point us in the right direction and getting them to honour the booking, moreso??

Cheers

I also booked madeira panorama holidays for 98 euros. I also got the phonecall and was made to feel extremely stupid by them for thinking it could be true.
Consumer affairs said that if they gave a confirmation number and took payment from my account that they have entered into a contract. which they have. They suggestes i contact the small claims court. I want my holiday, i have paid for it and its going to be mine!

I am seeing a solicitor on monday and i only wish i had the b---s to contact joe duffy and would love it someone would but i would be a nervous wreck. There has to be more people with this problem.
lets join forces.

MunsterCycling

dudara wrote: »

They can still refuse the contract, even if they charged your credit card. The contract may not be considered completed until the goods are delivered and accepted.

It's a little grey when it comes to internet shopping, as a transaction can be completed and charged without any human interaction. The mistake may not be immediately noticed by a person.

And how does that work so, the consideration has been accepted and the goods should be delivered as per that contract, unless you can point out where that is covered in consumer law I don't think they have a leg to stand on, they can try to shrug it off but stick by your guns and see what they do

Jev/N

MunsterCycling wrote: »

If the credit card was charged then a contract has been formed.

This isn't completely true.

Merely giving the credit card details is enough consideration but as I already mentioned, if the whole system is automated, they can argue that the intention to accept didn't accompany the communication.

I'm just trying to be realistic here. There's no point in saying a contract has been formed and that's it. Remember this isn't even taking into account any of the T&C's, many of which would cover a situation such as this.

dudara

MunsterCycling wrote: »

And how does that work so, the consideration has been accepted and the goods should be delivered as per that contract, unless you can point out where that is covered in consumer law I don't think they have a leg to stand on, they can try to shrug it off but stick by your guns and see what they do

\

Consumer law does allow them to back out if they made a mistake. Contract law was formed in the days of human interaction before automated internet transactions. It badly needs revision to cover cases like this.

Realistically, I wouldn't be trying to persue this. The price was clearly too good to be true. They made a mistake and if you chase them for it, you'll cause them to incur extra cost, which they'll ultimately have to pass on to all of us. Karma's a b*tch like that.

I just also want to point out that if had genuinely tried to scr*w with me, I would have no hesitation in chasing them. It's just that this isn't such a case.

dirtyaggie

Jev/N wrote: »

This isn't completely true.

Merely giving the credit card details is enough consideration but as I already mentioned, if the whole system is automated, they can argue that the intention to accept didn't accompany the communication.

I'm just trying to be realistic here. There's no point in saying a contract has been formed and that's it. Remember this isn't even taking into account any of the T&C's, many of which would cover a situation such as this.

It states in their terms and conditions that once you recieve a booking number and you have paid a deposit or in full a contract has been formed.
presumably its to protect them but cant it work for the consumer also.
It also states in the package and travel act 1995 that a travel agent can only cancel a contract if there are not enough people to complete the package or a force majoure(forgive the spelling) act of god
I could be mistaken but thats what i get from it. It also says that they would have to give a holiday of same quality or better (more or less)

Clockers

Hi Dirtyaggie and all contributors!

I certainly don't feel silly for booking a holiday that they claim and admit themselves was advertised as a web error.

The person who I have been in contact with is off till Tuesday so I will be on to her first thing to resolve this matter.

We all sometimes have to take a stand on principle...

On a totally separate note, and may I be clear about this..it has had NO bearing WHATSOEVER on my situation or intentions...Panorama Holidaysis owned by Thomas Cook. Does that ring a bell with anyone very recently..ie the Grafton Street branch.

wyndham

As a matter of interest, what should the price have been?

dubbin

I t makes me laugh with the mentality of the Irish People regarding these Complaints, they are so negative , If a Price is posted regarding a PackageHoliday for whatever the price !the consumer has the right to buy !at that price . According to the terms of Panorama and that of Irish Legislation it does not say anything suggesting that a Contract was not formed. The booking reference plus the fact Automated or not Panorama have these peoples monies in their account effectively they paid in full honoring their terms and conditions. I personally think you should fight for what should be yours I am sick to the teeth of Holiday Companies getting away with blue murder with the so called GREY AREAS. I hope you get what is legally yours! NOT IMPRESSED WITH THE ATTITUDE OF PANORAMA NEED A COURSE ON PUBLIC RELATIONS

---

dudara

dubbin wrote: »

If a Price is posted regarding a PackageHoliday for whatever the price !the consumer has the right to buy !at that price .

You do not have the automatic right to purchase at that price. Read up on the concept of "Invitation to Treat". It does not matter whether the retailer is a bricks'n'mortar shop, an online retailer or, in this case, a travel agent.

We are trying to help and educate people in the Consumer Issues forum, not passing on fallacies.

dubbin

dudara wrote: »

You do not have the automatic right to purchase at that price. Read up on the concept of "Invitation to Treat". It does not matter whether the retailer is a bricks'n'mortar shop, an online retailer or, in this case, a travel agent.

We are trying to help and educate people in the Consumer Issues forum, not passing on fallacies.

I stand corrected on the above, if you see a price for an item to purchase and do so complying with the procedure of purchase as set down by the Retailer ,in good faith payment made and reference booking received a Contract has been entered into .

dirtyaggie

dudara wrote: »

You do not have the automatic right to purchase at that price. Read up on the concept of "Invitation to Treat". It does not matter whether the retailer is a bricks'n'mortar shop, an online retailer or, in this case, a travel agent.

We are trying to help and educate people in the Consumer Issues forum, not passing on fallacies.

Do you by any chance have shares in panorama?

IT was consumer affairs that told me a contract was formed and they are breaking it. I read the terms and conditions to sure before i booked to make sure it was legal.
I travel at least twice a year with panorama and have never had a problem with them. They have a great reputation and that is why i never thought it was an error.
If it was an error then they need to take it up with whoever services their website

Why is there grey areas for big business but not for people.

bryanrmurphy

dirtyaggie wrote: »

I also booked madeira panorama holidays for 98 euros. I also got the phonecall and was made to feel extremely stupid by them for thinking it could be true.
Consumer affairs said that if they gave a confirmation number and took payment from my account that they have entered into a contract. which they have. They suggestes i contact the small claims court. I want my holiday, i have paid for it and its going to be mine!

I am seeing a solicitor on monday and i only wish i had the b---s to contact joe duffy and would love it someone would but i would be a nervous wreck. There has to be more people with this problem.
lets join forces.

I wrote into Joe Dufy and also conatcted Hearald am. Awaiting a reply. I am certain that a valid contract exists and I have no problem pursuing this as a group. I booked, received a separate confirmation, had payment taken and still not refunded and amended my booking twice with human interaction on both occasions. You do not need a law degree to know this is a valid contract and I will be seeing a solicitor also. I have also put in with the small claims court. Lets keep in touch and see what develops on this.

Clockers

Someone asked "what the price should have been?"

Without being flippant..the price WAS the price advertised..ie 98 euro.

This particular holiday, i.e. flight and a named hotel was actually listed twice on Panorama's webpage. You had a choice to enter particulars and book either.

I also have e-mailed Joe Duffy, and was a on to Consumer Assoc who told me what others had been told. I'll share any developments.

I also have no difficulty taking this further.

For others in the same boat, and I believe about 35 are affected, keep in touch.

Jev/N

I'm not gonna go repeating everything that dudara has already said but suffice it to say, it's all correct. Even if a binding contract was created, they can still rescind it on the grounds of mistake.

There is a small chance that Panorama may honour this in an attempt to avoid a PR disaster in the same vein that Aer Lingus did but the do not have to!

Also, of course the CAI are going to tell you that you have a case but, realistically, it's a small one at best

dudara

dirtyaggie wrote: »

Do you by any chance have shares in panorama?

Why is this the standard response when someone points out a contradicting view?

IT was consumer affairs that told me a contract was formed and they are breaking it. I read the terms and conditions to sure before i booked to make sure it was legal.

It is a fundamental part of contract law that both sides enter into the contract with honesty etc. Panorama have since stated that there was an error on their part, and this can negate the contract, as the basic premise upon which the contract was based has now changed.

You freely admit that you travel with Panorama regularly and have never had trouble. Yet when this happens, you're trying to burn them at the cross?

dirtyaggie

dudara wrote: »

Why is this the standard response when someone points out a contradicting view?



It is a fundamental part of contract law that both sides enter into the contract with honesty etc. Panorama have since stated that there was an error on their part, and this can negate the contract, as the basic premise upon which the contract was based has now changed.

You freely admit that you travel with Panorama regularly and have never had trouble. Yet when this happens, you're trying to burn them at the cross?

It is BECAUSE they are such a reliable company that it never entered my head that it was an error.
I take offence that people think we were trying to do something underhand here. we simply booked a bargain break and pardon me for expecting to recieve something i paid for.
I would imagine that panorama have a contract with whoever services their website and they need to take the matter up wit them.
But for me my contract is with panorama.
Who may i say has not deneied that there is a contract yet.

dirtyaggie

Hi all.

I was on to panorama again today to the head of oprations and she denied that money was taken from my account even though i have a letter from my bank saying they have.

went to my solicitor and she confirmed there is a contract!
I am going to pursue the case .

parsi

dirtyaggie wrote: »

I was on to panorama again today to the head of oprations and she denied that money was taken from my account even though i have a letter from my bank saying they have.

That must be one hyper-efficient bank to get a letter out to you in double-quick time.

I don't have shares in Panorama.

dirtyaggie

parsi wrote: »

That must be one hyper-efficient bank to get a letter out to you in double-quick time.

I don't have shares in Panorama.

I had no bother getting a letter.Just called in to my bank thursday and explained i had an appointment with solicitor and had it this morning.