restricted or not lee enfield

PJ Hunter

rowa wrote: »

probabily in the same way as black rifles , pistol grips and folding stocks are more dangerous , its a stupid statement and not backed up by any evidence or figures to explain or prove itself.

the garda license only for target and hunting.
issf rifle of black, blue, pink are they more dangerous if they holds 10:mad:





Standard rifle 300 m
ISSF/CISM with 10 round magazines
http://www.bleiker.ch/ModelleModels_4.html

Mr Flibble

rowa wrote: »

because someone in the firearms dept of the guards has already said its restricted because of it being .311 calibre .:mad:

So it might have been better if they hadn't been asked. In any case "someone" is wrong; it isn't a .311 calibre, legally it's a .303. Think about it; for years after 1972 they were happily licensing tens of thousands of .223" rifles while refusing to licence .222 or .223 Remington "calibre" firearms.

bazza888

other than surplus 303 ammo what other makes is there that are availible here and what price for a box of how many?

rrpc

PJ Hunter wrote: »

the garda license only for target and hunting.
issf rifle of black, blue, pink are they more dangerous if they holds 10:mad:





Standard rifle 300 m
ISSF/CISM with 10 round magazines
http://www.bleiker.ch/ModelleModels_4.html

You need to start actually reading the stuff you're talking about PJ :rolleyes:

Size of magazine doesn't restrict any centre fire rifle. It does restrict all .22 rifles (anything > 10 is restricted).

So it doesn't matter what colour it is :rolleyes:. If it's a single shot or repeatinig centre fire rifle less than .308" or 7.62mm in calibre it's not restricted.

So what's your point?

PJ Hunter

QUOTE]are they more dangerous if they holds 10
[/QUOTE]

Size of magazine doesn't restrict any centre fire rifle. It does restrict all .22 rifles

you say restrict.


You need to start actually reading the stuff you're talking about rrpc
+4?

fat-tony

PJ Hunter wrote: »

QUOTE]are they more dangerous if they holds 10

you say restrict.


You need to start actually reading the stuff you're talking about rrpc
+4?

PJ - the reference to magazine capacity (ie greater than 10) refers only to rimfire - not centrefire;)

rrpc

PJ Hunter wrote: »

are they more dangerous if they holds 10


you say restrict.

You need to start actually reading the stuff you're talking about rrpc
+4?

You're the one who brought up the 10 round red herring PJ, 'large capacity' wasn't defined in the guidelines.

It could just as easily be 50 rounds or 100 rounds. You picked 10, and I stated that they aren't even restricted, so how could they be considered 'dangerous'?

bazza888

other than surplus 303 ammo what other makes is there that are availible here and what price for a box of how many?

Sparks

Mr Flibble wrote: »

In any case "someone" is wrong; it isn't a .311 calibre, legally it's a .303.

Not "legally". It's not a "naming anomoly" either. .303 British is the calibre by definition.

The problem here is too many people thinking "calibre" is a single measurement, like height, where whether it's in feet&inches or in metres, it's the same thing being measured and you can convert back and forth at will with ease and accuracy.

That's not how it is with calibre - calibre is more like shoe sizes. A size 12 here and a size 47 in the EU and a size 12&1/2 in the US are not the same thing and because they're all based on different measurements of the foot, you can't readily translate from one to another. But they're all correct and perfectly legitimate shoe sizes. Same with calibre - .303 British is .303 calibre. That's all there is to it.

bunny shooter

bazza888 wrote: »

other than surplus 303 ammo what other makes is there that are availible here and what price for a box of how many?

Privi Partisan, 20 per box price range from €69 per 100 to €85 per 100 depending where you buy

PJ Hunter

rrpc wrote: »

You're the one who brought up the 10 round red herring PJ, 'large capacity' wasn't defined in the guidelines.

It could just as easily be 50 rounds or 100 rounds. You picked 10, and I stated that they aren't even restricted, so how could they be considered 'dangerous'?

rrpc

The enfield might get put under this heading:

Rifles designed for military/police tactical use or with large magazine capacity are more dangerous and the difference between them and ordinary rifles does not make them any more suited to target and clay shooting.

Will ten rounds of 303 be to much for supers to handle?
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chem

You're the one who brought up the 10 round red herring PJ, 'large capacity' wasn't defined in the guidelines.

rrpc
:rolleyes: nope
red herring rrpc? "are they more dangerous if they holds 10" no there not = red face:mad:

You need to start actually following the thread rrpc

PJ - the reference to magazine capacity (ie greater than 10) refers only to rimfire - not centrefire

fat-tony

guidelines

Rifles – Deer Hunting

These are normally single shot or bolt action rifles between .243 inch (6mm) and .308 inch (7.62mm) inch calibres inclusive. Their magazine capacity is normally small i.e. less than 5 rounds. Assault rifles are more dangerous and no more effective for deer hunting.

bazza888

where abouts do you go to buy them bunnyshooter?

PJ Hunter

bazza888 wrote: »

where abouts do you go to buy them bunnyshooter?

hope its not a european cross-over det mag, bazza888:rolleyes:


where is the Muchas apologistas:mad::rolleyes:

rrpc

PJ Hunter wrote: »

rrpc

chem

Yes I know chem brought it up first, but I answered that (I thought conclusively) and you brought it up again.

rrpc
:rolleyes: nope
red herring rrpc? "are they more dangerous if they holds 10" no there not = red face:mad:

red face means angry, so all that meant is that you didn't like the statement, not that it wasn't true. And you made the statement in reply to Rowa who was quoting the Garda guidelines which does not specify a magazine limit.

You need to start actually following the thread rrpc

I'm able to follow most people's posts except yours PJ. I suspect I'm not the only one. Please try and make an attempt to be a bit more coherent.

fat-tony
guidelines

Rifles – Deer Hunting

These are normally single shot or bolt action rifles between .243 inch (6mm) and .308 inch (7.62mm) inch calibres inclusive. Their magazine capacity is normally small i.e. less than 5 rounds. Assault rifles are more dangerous and no more effective for deer hunting.

You're not actually making a coherent point here PJ. Deer hunting rifles generally do have a relatively small mag capacity, and assault rifles are restricted.

I think I pointed this out elsewhere and it probably merits repeating, but the fact is the guidelines are guidelines and not law.

bazza888

its gone a bit mad here,really just wanted find out everything i could about lee enfield rifles no4 mk1/mk2 where to buy them,where to get the ammo,what types there is and how much they cost.is there anywhere i could go to see them being fired?was planning on going to midlands to shoot my .22 and was hoping someone there might be firing one.

Sparks

bazza888 wrote: »

its gone a bit mad here

That can happen, don't worry about it

really just wanted find out everything i could about lee enfield rifles no4 mk1/mk2 where to buy them,where to get the ammo,what types there is and how much they cost.is there anywhere i could go to see them being fired?was planning on going to midlands to shoot my .22 and was hoping someone there might be firing one.

There's a VCRAI match coming up soon - not sure if it's this weekend or next weekend. Sikamick here could fill you in on that. They'll have SMLEs, swedish mausers, mosin-nagents and a few other interesting types in use on the day, and I've never seen any spectator not made welcome there.

As to the restricted question, I've been asking about - the DoJ can't make an official statement on it because it would qualify as legal advice, but their understanding was that the restricted status went by nominal calibre - .303 in this case. If you think you have a .311 rifle however, you're welcome to register it as a restricted firearm. For a more general solution, we should be getting the relevant FCP member (in this case, as it's the VCRAI's baliwick, it's the SSAI who should be making the representation) to talk to the Garda FPU about this. They'd then pass that on down the line to the various Superintendents.

PJ Hunter

"You're the one who brought up the 10 round red herring PJ",[/QUOTE]rrpc

"Yes I know chem brought it up first, but I answered that( conclusively) and you brought it up again".[/QUOTE] rrpc

(a) so you answered it. so what, so did others, who's counting?

"red face means angry, so all that meant is that you didn't like the statement, not that it wasn't true. And you made the statement in reply to Rowa who was quoting the Garda guidelines which does not specify a magazine limit".[/QUOTE] rrpc

(a) no, it think's it mad, if large can mean 10 cartridges. who knows. do you. "Garda guidelines which does not specify a magazine limit". are open to question.

"I'm able to follow most people's posts except yours PJ". [/QUOTE] rrpc

(a) so. you're the mod on this.

"And you made the statement in reply to Rowa who was quoting the Garda guidelines which does not specify a magazine limit".[/QUOTE] rrpc

(a) again, so it's open to question. pity it's not clear.


"I think I pointed this out elsewhere and it probably merits repeating, but the fact is the guidelines are guidelines and not law".[/quote] rrpc


(a) exactly. the fo might or will use them. pity if it's court. get the double meanings ironed out.:p can we discuss it. rrpc

rrpc

PJ Hunter wrote: »

(a) no, it think's it mad, if large can mean 10 cartridges. who knows. do you. "Garda guidelines which does not specify a magazine limit". are open to question.

So what? The law doesn't even restrict centre fire rifles with 10 rounds, so there's no issue. Unless you want to have more than ten rounds and even that's not restricted. 'More dangerous' is completely meaningless in this context and has no backing in law. Why we're even discussing it is beyond me

(a) again, so it's open to question. pity it's not clear.

It's clear in law, and as I said before; the law trumps the guidelines.

(a) exactly. the fo might or will use them. pity if it's court. get the double meanings ironed out.:p can we discuss it. rrpc

But even the guidelines don't specify the number that makes a rifle 'more dangerous', so any Superintendent that tried a refusal on those grounds would be very quickly lost in a legal cul de sac.

I think you're getting excited about nothing here.

Sikamick

Quote [The Commissioner]

These Guidelines are intended to set out in practical terms, for the benefit of members of the Garda Síochána and the public alike, how the complex area of firearms legislation may be applied and this document should be read in conjunction with firearms legislation, in particular the new sections as outlined below.

________________________________________________________________

Guidelines can and will be used, and can be interpreted to suit the Superintendents Persona designata position.

Sikamick

rrpc

Sikamick wrote: »

Quote [The Commissioner]

These Guidelines are intended to set out in practical terms, for the benefit of members of the Garda Síochána and the public alike, how the complex area of firearms legislation may be applied and this document should be read in conjunction with firearms legislation, in particular the new sections as outlined below.

Highlighted all the important little qualifications in that statement Mick.

Guidelines can and will be used, and can be interpreted to suit the Superintendents Persona designata position.

Sikamick

Now you're just making stuff up to scare the children

I'll say it again, because apparently it's not getting through: the guidelines do not trump the law.

Sikamick

Has the Superintendent used the Persona designata position in the past yes and will they in the future?.

And rrpc will you be available to go to court to defend in the cases where it is used, you being an authority on law.

Quote [rrpc] Now you're just making stuff up to scare the children. This is an insult to the users of the shooting forum, we are not children.

Also rrpc hiding from the facts never solved problems.

Sikamick

Cass

bazza888 wrote: »

..............was planning on going to midlands to shoot my .22 and was hoping someone there might be firing one.

Was over in the midlands on Saturday and there was a few lads there shooting 303s. Can't give you the makes as honestly i don't know alot about the old rifles. Except that they are old and loud. Some nice looking rifles though.

rrpc

Sikamick wrote: »

Has the Superintendent used the Persona designata position in the past yes and will they in the future?.

You seem to have difficulty understanding what persona designata means. It means the deciding person, but those decisions must be in accordance with the law otherwise he may be told to revisit them by a court. In addition, there's the added input of the Commissioner and the District Courts which have diluted the persona designata status quite a bit.

And rrpc will you be available to go to court to defend in the cases where it is used, you being an authority on law.

Thank you for the compliment.

Quote [rrpc] Now you're just making stuff up to scare the children. This is an insult to the users of the shooting forum, we are not children.

Missed the smiley there Mick?

Also rrpc hiding from the facts never solved problems.

Sikamick

Making up new ones never helped anyone either and I can't understand why you who are Secretary of the VCRAI and have adopted a leadership role should be scaremongering in this way. The OP asked a simple question as to whether a Lee Enfield was restricted or not and you have done your utmost to muddy what are very clear waters in this regard and make smart comments directed at me and anyone else who attempted to assist the OP.

And what facts am I hiding from? Facts please, not scare tactics.

Sikamick

rrpc wrote: »

You seem to have difficulty understanding what persona designata means. It means the deciding person, but those decisions must be in accordance with the law otherwise he may be told to revisit them by a court. In addition, there's the added input of the Commissioner and the District Courts which have diluted the persona designata status quite a bit.

Correct me if i'm wrong, Superintendents have used persona designata status to refuse firearms licenses.

Thank you for the compliment. Your welcome

[/COLOR]Missed the smiley there Mick? Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.

Making up new ones never helped anyone either and I can't understand why you who are Secretary of the VCRAI and have adopted a leadership role should be scaremongering in this way. The OP asked a simple question as to whether a Lee Enfield was restricted or not and you have done your utmost to muddy what are very clear waters in this regard and make smart comments directed at me and anyone else who attempted to assist the OP.

Are you the head Mod or the only voice that should be heard, and no one other than yourself can voice their opinions, otherwise they are muddying the waters.

The OP's question had nothing to do with ten round magazines or most of what people are discussing. (OP'S Original question was restricted or not lee enfield. And I think Sparks has answered this.

This is my last word on this.

Sikamick

rrpc

Sikamick wrote: »

Correct me if i'm wrong, Superintendents have used persona designata status to refuse firearms licenses.

Superintendents don't use persona designata status to refuse licences, they have persona designata status as in they are the person on whom the decision to grant or refuse rests. It's not some sort of magic wand to make the firearms acts disappear (though some seem to think it is :rolleyes:).

Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.

I wasn't being sarcastic, it's a phrase of endearment for want of a better description.

Are you the head Mod or the only voice that should be heard, and no one other than yourself can voice their opinions, otherwise they are muddying the waters.

Why did you bring up the possibility of a license refusal in a thread about whether or not a Lee Enfield was restricted? This was not a discussion about a particular case yet you felt it necessary to state that a Superintendent can refuse a licence and quoted an introduction to the guidelines that said they can be used by the Gardai and the public to assist with applications putting your own sinister slant on it.

What was the point of all that if not to frighten people? And bar making snide comments about my posts, you've signally failed to provide any good reason for bringing this stuff up on this thread.

The OP's question had nothing to do with ten round magazines or most of what people are discussing. (OP'S Original question was restricted or not lee enfield. And I think Sparks has answered this.

Actually I answered it in the second post on this thread.

This is my last word on this.

Sikamick

Am I supposed to be impressed by that? :rolleyes:.

bazza888

hi sikamick,sparks said your the man that could tell where i could go to see some lees being fired?is there a compitition in midlands this weekend?

rrpc

bazza888 wrote: »

hi sikamick,sparks said your the man that could tell where i could go to see some lees being fired?is there a compitition in midlands this weekend?

You should pop over to www.vcrai.com and have a look. There's a chat forum there too and you'll probably find Sikamick, Kryten or some of the other lads floating around.

There's bound to be a thread on any upcoming competitions. Their forum is here by the way.

bazza888

thanks!ill try there!

bunny shooter

Hi Bassa

As Sparks said have a look on VCRAI site

Some of the lads shoot most Saturdays at Midlands I think

PJ Hunter

http://www.icpsa.ie/notices/631-Firearms-Consultative-Panel.html

What is restricted: (This is not an exhaustive list)

Rifles with magazines which carry more than 10 cartridges.

Single-shot, repeating or semi-automatic rim-fire firearms designed to fire rim-fire percussion ammunition and with a magazine having a capacity of not more than 10 rounds.


the guidelines have it a bit muddy .:rolleyes: