O'Keeffe signals reduction in number of VECs

slickmcvic

from here!!
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0917/1224254720084.html

..

September 17, 2009
O'Keeffe signals reduction in number of VECs

Sean FLYNN
Education Editor

SEVERAL VOCATIONAL Education Committees (VECs) could be abolished in a major scaling back of the sector, Minister for Education Batt O’Keeffe signalled yesterday.

The Minister said the separate pay structure and administration for each of the 33 VECs in the State seems “out of step” with the rationalisation now under way across the public sector.

The McCarthy report recommends a reduction in the number of VECs to 22 and it portrays the sector as hugely expensive and overly bureaucratic.

Today, the annual conference of vocational school managers will discuss an emergency motion condemning the report.

The Minister, who will address the conference, said he would not get into numbers in relation to VECs but he told The Irish Times : “I accept there is a need for rationalisation of the VECs as there is across the public service.”

Mr O’Keeffe said he is anxious to boost the role of the VECs in the primary sector. Two State-run primary schools are being run on a pilot basis by the City of Dublin VEC. But delegates to the Irish Vocation Education Association (IVEA) conference in Ennis, Co Clare, are likely to express anger about the possible abolition of some county VECs.

Spending in the vocational sector has increased from €731 million in 2005 to €949 million this year. Some 87 per cent of this is teachers’ pay. The 33 VECs are made up of 27 county, five city and one borough – each with their own administrative structure.

In a submission to the McCarthy group, the Department of Finance pointed out how the VECs “vary in size, some with more than 20 schools, while others may only have two or three . . . There is also a wide variation in enrolment in post-Leaving Cert courses and Vocational Training Opportunities Scheme (VTOS) enrolment in each VEC. Some have in excess of 10,000 students while others have fewer than 1,000.”

Yesterday, IVEA general secretary Michael Moriarty called on the education partners – including the Department of Education, parents, management bodies and teachers’ unions – to establish an educational solidarity pact with a commitment to achieving common educational goals, supported by adequate resources.

Mr Moriarty called on the partners to recognise that education is central to economic recovery through the development of a knowledge economy, and “must, as far as possible, be a recession-proof activity”.

“While education is not the only factor stimulating economic growth, it has been and will continue to be the main driving force behind the future prosperity of Ireland,” continued Mr Moriarty. “Investment in education is also about investment in the development of social capital, enhancing personal development and empowerment, and significantly contributing to social cohesion.

“Unless we maintain investment in education and training, we may end up paying far more in the future in terms of the judicial system, social welfare, and health expenditure. Reversing the gains of recent years only hampers the development of Ireland as a vibrant nation with a restored economy.”

....do ye reckon this will go ahead?...what vecs are going to get the chop/amalgamated ?

gaeilgebeo

Wow! Very interesting as I work in the VEC sector!

rainbowtrout

I'd say it could well go ahead and I'd say mine will be one of the ones to get the chop. It's been rumoured for a long time in these parts that Roscommon would merge with Mayo VEC, I reckon Leitrim will merge with Sligo, possibly a merge of Longford - Westmeath, not a million miles away from voting constituencies. This idea was also mooted for county councils to reduce the overall number around the country. Perhaps it would take the same line. Maybe a merge of some of the city/county VECs as well.


I don't have any great knowledge of the operations of other VECs in terms of numbers of schools/programmes/student numbers other than the ones I've dealt with. But I reckon a combination of

Mayo-Roscommon
Sligo-Leitrim
Cavan-Monaghan
Carlow-Kilkenny
North Tipp-South Tipp
Longford-Westmeath
Meath-Louth
Laois-Offaly
Limerick City and County
Galway City and County
Waterford City and County

...wouldn't be too far off the mark.

I reckon Cork might be big enough population wise to sustain two VECs and I reckon Dublin would probably be the same with the three it has. Spurious is CDVEC and might suggest otherwise though.

Complete list:

City of Cork VEC
City of Dublin VEC
City of Limerick VEC
City of Waterford VEC
Dun Laoghaire VEC
City of Galway VEC
Carlow VEC
Cavan VEC
Clare VEC
Cork VEC
Donegal VEC
Dublin VEC
Galway VEC
Kerry Education Service
Kildare VEC
Kilkenny VEC
Laois VEC
Leitrim VEC
Limerick VEC
Longford VEC
Louth VEC
Mayo VEC
Meath VEC
Monaghan VEC
Offaly VEC
Roscommon VEC
Sligo VEC
Tipperary North VEC
Tipperary South VEC
Waterford VEC
Westmeath VEC
Wexford VEC
Wicklow VEC


On a lighter note, what odds would Paddy Power give me on getting the 11 combinations right???

spurious

In terms of student numbers the CDVEC is still by far the largest I think. They are trying new directions like taking over the running of primary schools, so I doubt they'd be keen on joining the County in a big mega-VEC. They also fund and supply the educational component in many other non-school/college centres.

Continuing with some of the really small VECs would be quite hard to justify in the present climate, though I would hope the ordinary clerical staff ('down' the line) could be prioritised for employment in the new bigger VECs. The 'higher ups' I'm not so bothered about.

rainbowtrout

spurious wrote: »

In terms of student numbers the CDVEC is still by far the largest I think. They are trying new directions like taking over the running of primary schools, so I doubt they'd be keen on joining the County in a big mega-VEC. They also fund and supply the educational component in many other non-school/college centres.

Continuing with some of the really small VECs would be quite hard to justify in the present climate, though I would hope the ordinary clerical staff ('down' the line) could be prioritised for employment in the new bigger VECs. The 'higher ups' I'm not so bothered about.

yep, thought as much, I had a look at the allocations there a while ago and Roscommon has the smallest in the country, only 54.5 teachers for the county and my school has 30ish of that allocation. No surprise really, there's only three schools in the VEC and 2 of them have barely 130ish students, just about 700 between the three. Of course there's VTOS, Traveller Training and Castlerea Prison but we're still very small. The CEO retired this summer and one of the principals is acting CEO until the end of the year. The AEO is retiring the end of this year so a merge would work out quite well for Roscommon at the moment in terms of losing top level management.

Having said that it's nice that it's so small that you know everyone by name on the admin side and quite a few in the other centres.

gaeilgebeo

rainbowtrout wrote: »

yep, thought as much, I had a look at the allocations there a while ago and Roscommon has the smallest in the country, only 54.5 teachers for the county and my school has 30ish of that allocation. No surprise really, there's only three schools in the VEC and 2 of them have barely 130ish students, just about 700 between the three. Of course there's VTOS, Traveller Training and Castlerea Prison but we're still very small. The CEO retired this summer and one of the principals is acting CEO until the end of the year. The AEO is retiring the end of this year so a merge would work out quite well for Roscommon at the moment in terms of losing top level management.

Having said that it's nice that it's so small that you know everyone by name on the admin side and quite a few in the other centres.

Can I just ask about job losses for teachers if VEC's merge? Will it have an impact on teaching positions?

rainbowtrout

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

Can I just ask about job losses for teachers if VEC's merge? Will it have an impact on teaching positions?

No idea. I know because I'm in the biggest school of the three in the county, we took the biggest hit for cuts in teacher allocation this year, as the others have to have a minimum number of teachers to provide the basic curriculum. I have no idea how that would work in merged VECs. Again if we ended up one of the largest schools in a merged VEC maybe we would still be taking the hit for smaller schools within two counties. On the other hand maybe we wouldn't get as badly hit because there would be other big schools getting hit as well.

Redeployment might not be all that efficient either because it's normally within 30 miles of your school so over a larger geographical area a lot of schools wouldn't be in that range. I'm thinking of Mayo-Roscommon as an example. Roscommon Town being the extreme south and Rossport/Achill/Belmullet being extreme west. Rossport only has 70 students, so it's allocation is possibly being supported by other schools.

I think the general feeling here would be that a merge with Leitrim or Longford would be better for Roscommon, so we don't just end up on the periphery of another VEC, but I doubt it's going to happen.

implausible

Tbh, it sounds like a sensible enough move. There are plenty of smaller VECs which could be merged and there is a lot of double-jobbing going on. For instance, the situation where the different types of grants are administered by two different bodies is mad. There should be one grant-administering body.

However, I feel that between the unions and the politicians, I can see such a move being resisted. Nobody wants job losses and the politicians wouldn't want to lose their allowances and travel expenses.

At the end of the day, one of the VEC's main functions is to act as a salary middleman for the DES. Roughly the same amount of teachers will be required. To answer gaeilgebeo, I'd imagine the only teacher losses would be maybe where the VEC approves extra hours at its discretion, but I'm open to correction.

rainbowtrout

deemark wrote: »

Tbh, it sounds like a sensible enough move. There are plenty of smaller VECs which could be merged and there is a lot of double-jobbing going on. For instance, the situation where the different types of grants are administered by two different bodies is mad. There should be one grant-administering body.

However, I feel that between the unions and the politicians, I can see such a move being resisted. Nobody wants job losses and the politicians wouldn't want to lose their allowances and travel expenses.

At the end of the day, one of the VEC's main functions is to act as a salary middleman for the DES. Roughly the same amount of teachers will be required. To answer gaeilgebeo, I'd imagine the only teacher losses would be maybe where the VEC approves extra hours at its discretion, but I'm open to correction.

yep, the grant thing is a bit mad really.. and they were still issuing them by cheque to our students last year, despite collecting their bank details.. how hard is it to set up?

I could imagine redundancy for CEOs and similar could be expensive, maybe better in the long run, but would be resisted, and as you said a lot of local politician types would stand to lose out which I'm sure they wouldn't be happy about.

implausible

rainbowtrout wrote: »

they were still issuing them by cheque to our students last year, despite collecting their bank details.. how hard is it to set up?

That's brutal....and hilarious!

In my corner, the grants offices in both the CoCo and the VEC had to shut down for applications for a week because they were absolutely flooded with applications and were getting used to a new system. Imagine, installing a new system, in TWO offices around the busiest time of year! Late applicants mightn't get their grants until xmas. Maybe the Rossies were right to stick to the cheques;)

rainbowtrout

deemark wrote: »

That's brutal....and hilarious!

In my corner, the grants offices in both the CoCo and the VEC had to shut down for applications for a week because they were absolutely flooded with applications and were getting used to a new system. Imagine, installing a new system, in TWO offices around the busiest time of year! Late applicants mightn't get their grants until xmas. Maybe the Rossies were right to stick to the cheques;)

That's just typical.

I was still getting paid by cheque until 3 or 4 years ago, it took about 4 years to get paypath set up, they used to ask us for our bank details on an annual basis. I couldn't believe it when it actually happened. :pac:

spurious

I wouldn't expect much on an impact on teacher numbers. The same schools will be there with the same numbers of kids. There will still be too few teachers of course, but that's the value FF/Greens put on education.

My worry would be that the pay sections, which have been slashed across the board over the past few years, so much so that some VECs struggle to get salaries paid on time every month (particularly where PT returns are involved) would lose even more staff. Those people have a thankless job, generally are only contacted by teachers when there is a problem and often take abuse for problems and issues that are not within their control. I hope they would all be accommodated in any bigger VEC Offices.

TheDriver

ABout time to be honest, I deal with a VEC and they are appalling to deal with, persistently make mistakes with pay and no accountability, difficult to get in contact with and to be honest, the point of them is fairly difficult to see, maybe the education officer for PLC colleges etc but sec schools run fine being administered from Athlone, why do VEC schools need more?
The head of each VEC earns more than a principal of a very large school as does all the principal officers to do a job that Athlone can easily do. I think payroll should be taken off them, I see so many mistakes made and the people I deal with usually don't want to talk to us, don't understand payroll and don't fix the problems.
Cork needs only 1 VEC, the city only covers a few PLC schools and 2 sec schools and the County VEC has their offices practically in the city.
Sorry, I am very negative on VECs and having worked for them for a good no of years, I find them pointless and non sensical