N7 - Newlands Cross upgrade

First Up

josip wrote: »

Until we get a law in Ireland that gives priority to the motorist trying to move into the outer/overtaking lanes on a motorway, over those already in the lane, this will continue to be the normal style of motorway driving.

Many drivers will be reluctant in pull back into inner lanes for fear of getting trapped behind slower moving traffic and not being able to get back out again when they want to.

Is this an actual law on German autobahns or is it just convention?

Anyone who moves into the outer lane of an autobahn on the presumption they have right of way is nuts - and won't live long. It is neither the law or the convention.

paddyland

Kaiser, I wouldn't worry about it. These guys are just reliving the road rage they experienced last night. They roll around in the bed half the night rethinking all the cars that held them up, figuring out all the super-heroic retaliations they would visit upon them if it happened again today. They probably have barely ten thousand miles' driving experience between them.

Good driving is doing your best, and being aware of others on the road, and getting on with life. If you're bringing it home with you, and onto an internet chat forum, then you have a problem!

First Up

paddyland wrote: »

Kaiser, I wouldn't worry about it. These guys are just reliving the road rage they experienced last night. They roll around in the bed half the night rethinking all the cars that held them up, figuring out all the super-heroic retaliations they would visit upon them if it happened again today. They probably have barely ten thousand miles' driving experience between them.

Good driving is doing your best, and being aware of others on the road, and getting on with life. If you're bringing it home with you, and onto an internet chat forum, then you have a problem!

Nice troll! (not).

gilly0512

josip wrote: »

Until we get a law in Ireland that gives priority to the motorist trying to move into the outer/overtaking lanes on a motorway, over those already in the lane, this will continue to be the normal style of motorway driving.

Many drivers will be reluctant in pull back into inner lanes for fear of getting trapped behind slower moving traffic and not being able to get back out again when they want to.

Is this an actual law on German autobahns or is it just convention?

We also need to bring in the UK law where all large vehicles of over 3.5 tonnes are not allowed into the outside lane of a motorway. Now in fairness most UK motorways are a minimum of 3 lanes, but some of them are only two lanes, and the same rules apply. So while I'm aware that the N7 is not a motorway, it definitely should be brought into law for all Irish motorways, as well as the N7 which is easily the busiest road in the country outside of the M50.
http://www.motordefenceteam.co.uk/offence-guide/motorways.htm

mackerski

gilly2308 wrote: »

We also need to bring in the UK law where all large vehicles of over 3.5 tonnes are not allowed into the outside lane of a motorway. Now in fairness most UK motorways are a minimum of 3 lanes, but some of them are only two lanes, and the same rules apply. So while I'm aware that the N7 is not a motorway, it definitely should be brought into law for all Irish motorways, as well as the N7 which is easily the busiest road in the country outside of the M50.
http://www.motordefenceteam.co.uk/offence-guide/motorways.htm

We already have an even stricter version of that law. On 2 lane motorways with a speed limit of greater than 80, trucks are confined to lane 1.

josip

First Up wrote: »

Anyone who moves into the outer lane of an autobahn on the presumption they have right of way is nuts - and won't live long. It is neither the law or the convention.

From my occasional autobahn driving (usually Dusseldorf and south) over the years, I notice a difference between when the average German changes to an outer lane and when the average Irish driver changes. The German drivers seem to pull out in circumstances many Irish drivers would wait for. Nobody ever dangerously "pulled out under" another car, but very often the driver already in the outer lane would (have to) brake in order to let out the other driver.

It ocurred often enough that I was wondering why the slower drivers felt suffciently secure in their actions to do so?

First Up

josip wrote: »

From my occasional autobahn driving (usually Dusseldorf and south) over the years, I notice a difference between when the average German changes to an outer lane and when the average Irish driver changes. The German drivers seem to pull out in circumstances many Irish drivers would wait for. Nobody ever dangerously "pulled out under" another car, but very often the driver already in the outer lane would (have to) brake in order to let out the other driver.

It ocurred often enough that I was wondering why the slower drivers felt suffciently secure in their actions to do so?

The reason they had to brake could be that they were doing about 150 and the car pulling out didn't see them. You would usually get blown and flashed out ot it for doing that. Driving on autobahns in Germany is great because it is so disciplined. The average Irish dozy driver wouldn't last ten minutes.

josip

First Up wrote: »

.. The average Irish dozy driver wouldn't last ten minutes.

That's me then
I find it exhausting after 4 or 5 hours of constant alertness.
It's always a relief to make it back safely to Netherlands/Belgium.

RichardoKhan

mackerski wrote: »

We already have an even stricter version of that law. On 2 lane motorways with a speed limit of greater than 80, trucks are confined to lane 1.

Its not laws or a lack of them that is the problem its 'Enforcement' of said laws........

First Up

josip wrote: »

That's me then
I find it exhausting after 4 or 5 hours of constant alertness.
It's always a relief to make it back safely to Netherlands/Belgium.

That's why it is recommended to take a break every couple of hours. But if you do a steady 120- 130 in the proper lane nobody will bother you. Its only in the outside lane it gets hairy.

First Up

RichardoKhan wrote: »

Its not laws or a lack of them that is the problem its 'Enforcement' of said laws........

Correct, although I think there is a fair bit of ignorance about lane usage too - as seen on the M50 and N/M 7 every day (as well as some posters in this forum).

gilly0512

mackerski wrote: »

We already have an even stricter version of that law. On 2 lane motorways with a speed limit of greater than 80, trucks are confined to lane 1.

Well then policing is the issue here, as large vehicles driving in the outside lane is most certainly not policed here, no more than tractors on motorways, another common occurrence on motorways in this country. Not having a go at the Gardai, but their own aim is to catch speeding drivers, and bad driving is certainly not high on their agenda, no more than stopping HGVs from driving in the fast lane.

Carawaystick

gilly2308 wrote: »

no more than tractors on motorways, another common occurrence on motorways in this country

Tractors with a top speed >50 are perfectly entitled to drive on Motorways here.

But this thread is about a non-motorway intersection upgrade.

apoeiguq3094y

Carawaystick wrote: »

But this thread WAS about a non-motorway intersection upgrade.

Maybe if you had to pay a toll on the amount of time you were in the overtaking lanes?

Lane 1 free
Lane 2 20c per mile
Lane 3 50c per mile

Some motorway exits and entries have short ramps, so the merging & exiting traffic is not at the correct speed when it enters/leaves the main flow. I think this is one of the reasons people take the "middle lane will do for me" approach.

For most people, their driving lessons and test doesn't include multiple-lane roads. So bad behaviour is never stopped. It almost makes adding extra lanes to busy roads pointless, because everyone is in the outside lane.

spacetweek

apoeiguq3094y wrote: »

It almost makes adding extra lanes to busy roads pointless, because everyone is in the outside lane.

During busy periods, all lanes are occupied.

paulbok

Sorry to drag this on topic, having passed under the flyover yesterday, the remaining works don't look like they will be done by Christmas, probably will be the end of Jan before completion.
Still ahead of the origional schedule before anyone needs to point that out.

Star Spangler

josip wrote: »

Until we get a law in Ireland that gives priority to the motorist trying to move into the outer/overtaking lanes on a motorway, over those already in the lane, this will continue to be the normal style of motorway driving.

Many drivers will be reluctant in pull back into inner lanes for fear of getting trapped behind slower moving traffic and not being able to get back out again when they want to.

Is this an actual law on German autobahns or is it just convention?

This is an interesting point and it is an area that often demonstrates the difference in thinking between the driver more used to urban situations and the one more used to less urban situations. The former believes the use of the indicator is a signal of intent. Basically saying "hello car UN lane outside of me, this flashing light says I'm coming into your lane so leave a space". The latter believes the use of the indicator is for a request. This driver is saying "Please can I come into your lane and let me know if that is okay?"

These makes for difficulties when both cultures come into contact which they invariably do on a road such as the N7 especially when the rural is on the outside lane and the urban has decided to join that lane!!

paulbok

paulbok wrote: »

Sorry to drag this on topic,

Glad someone did.

spacetweek

It's now been a few weeks.

Anyone who uses this at rush hour - how is traffic flow these days? Is Red Cow problematic? What about Naas?

I expected due to the fact that you used to move to the middle of the road to get in your right turn lane at Newlands, but now you exit to the left, that some motorists who didn't expect this would suddenly swerve over. Does this happen on the flyover?

First Up

spacetweek wrote: »

It's now been a few weeks.

Anyone who uses this at rush hour - how is traffic flow these days? Is Red Cow problematic? What about Naas?

I expected due to the fact that you used to move to the middle of the road to get in your right turn lane at Newlands, but now you exit to the left, that some motorists who didn't expect this would suddenly swerve over. Does this happen on the flyover?

I haven't used it that much but I've not noticed any problems. The road markings are good and start well in advance so IF drivers are paying attention it is pretty straightforward.

Red Cow seems fine; can't comment on Naas.

dubred

spacetweek wrote: »

It's now been a few weeks.

Anyone who uses this at rush hour - how is traffic flow these days? Is Red Cow problematic? What about Naas?

I expected due to the fact that you used to move to the middle of the road to get in your right turn lane at Newlands, but now you exit to the left, that some motorists who didn't expect this would suddenly swerve over. Does this happen on the flyover?

I travel from Newbridge to Clonskeagh each day and with the exception of today (must be a lot of Christmas parties tonight!), my journey time has increased by about 15-20 minutes each way. M50 is much busier both in the morning and evening. On the way home in the evening, traffic is pretty much crawling from J7 to J11 on the N7/M7, just like a Bank Holiday Friday.

I am hoping there is a seasonal element to this, as I have noticed traffic being heavier in the 6 weeks before Christmas in previous years, but other posters have noted that daily volumes through Newlands have increased from ~70,000 to ~90,000 cars per day.

Pablod

spacetweek wrote: »

It's now been a few weeks.

Anyone who uses this at rush hour - how is traffic flow these days? Is Red Cow problematic? What about Naas?

I expected due to the fact that you used to move to the middle of the road to get in your right turn lane at Newlands, but now you exit to the left, that some motorists who didn't expect this would suddenly swerve over. Does this happen on the flyover?

Athy to Kylemore Road each day
Commuting to work in morning - Better
Commuting from work in evenings - Worse

Mornings
generally going over the flyover between 8:00-8:15 each day - it has shaved about 15-20mins of my commute to work
If there is a delay on the M50 North this can tailback from the slip onto Naas road in turn causing a tailback on the flyover
There is a bit of a bottleneck after RedCow to long mile junction - this moves but if you hit it after 8:30 its back onto the red cow.

Evenings
Obviously no congestion at newlands cross (unless theres an incident/breakdown)
But further down the Naas road is a disaster - bottleneck at jn9 Nass merge to M7 two lanes
Most nights traffic comes to a stand still at jn7 Kill (last night it was back to jn6 Castlewarden)
My commute home is on average 20-25mins longer each day now - and this is down to constant volume/flow that would previousily have been filtered at newlands lights
Fridays in general were always heavier but now that is worse again

I know the M7 widening may eventually resolve some of it - but its the constant flow/extra volume of idiot drivers causing the longer delay's - so overall I am worse off

Speak Now

Id say it can be judged better in the year when the Christmas shopping traffic is done.

L1011

Jerry Seinfeld wrote: »

Id say it can be judged better in the year when the Christmas shopping traffic is done.

Arguably February would be most accurate, all colleges and schools back but weather still not ideal

First Up

Pablod wrote: »

Athy to Kylemore Road each day
Commuting to work in morning - Better
Commuting from work in evenings - Worse

Mornings
generally going over the flyover between 8:00-8:15 each day - it has shaved about 15-20mins of my commute to work
If there is a delay on the M50 North this can tailback from the slip onto Naas road in turn causing a tailback on the flyover
There is a bit of a bottleneck after RedCow to long mile junction - this moves but if you hit it after 8:30 its back onto the red cow.

Evenings
Obviously no congestion at newlands cross (unless theres an incident/breakdown)
But further down the Naas road is a disaster - bottleneck at jn9 Nass merge to M7 two lanes
Most nights traffic comes to a stand still at jn7 Kill (last night it was back to jn6 Castlewarden)
My commute home is on average 20-25mins longer each day now - and this is down to constant volume/flow that would previousily have been filtered at newlands lights
Fridays in general were always heavier but now that is worse again

I know the M7 widening may eventually resolve some of it - but its the constant flow/extra volume of idiot drivers causing the longer delay's - so overall I am worse off

That sounds rough on the way home. I don't get your point about the lights at Newlands. Surely any filtering back there would be long dissapated by Naas?

Pablod

First Up wrote: »

That sounds rough on the way home. I don't get your point about the lights at Newlands. Surely any filtering back there would be long dissapated by Naas?

That's what most people expected to happen but didn't.

When you think about it Newlands Cross (at peak/rush hour) was always queued backed to Red Cow and most of the time that queue was tailing back to both long mile junction and backing onto the slip of the M50 exit, so the volume was always there, the lights at Newlands put a kind of stop gap on the flow of traffic between Newlands and Naas - which gave a few minutes break between lots of hundreds of cars.

That stop gap has been removed so it is a constant heavy flow along with increased volume of vehicles now using the road,
so there is no relief and it now bottles up when 3 lanes merge to 2 lanes at Naas - and this is now the result of that.
After Naas it is stop-start->stop-start to jn11 (M9) due to tailgating/lane hopping etc..

rameire

for me From Athy to Leopardstwon,
getting to Newlands at 7.40am, im getting to work 5 minutes earlier. M50 sb for me is heavier joining the M50 but is alot more fluid after that. there are still delays along the m50 but they are not as bad.
for going home I leave at 3.45 and get through Newlands at 4pm, it is saving me 10-15 minutes.
on Fridays I am still saving time as I stay in Lane 1 all the way from Jn 5.
the Tip is not to use lane 2 or 3 after Jn 5.

was going home last friday and was just passed the luas Clondalkin Bridge going outbound, and an Idiot in lane 3 jammed on his breaks and moved left directly into the space a car was driving in, was sooo close, this idiot then continued over to the off slip, to go to the lights for the belgard road.

unfortunately I think this idiotic behaviour will not stop, due to the calibre of the Irish Driver

realdanbreen

Just a quick one, is there still a slip road for Bewleys hotel as you approach newlands cross heading in to Dublin?

rameire

realdanbreen wrote: »

Just a quick one, is there still a slip road for Bewleys hotel as you approach newlands cross heading in to Dublin?

Yes,

Keep Left.

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nordydan

Would variable speed limit outbound on the N7 in the evenings help this? i.e. 80km/hr between 4:30 and 7 with enforcement via speed cameras

Assuming drivers read the signs of course ;-)