Question on Lisbon

marco_polo

theasylumkey wrote: »

I feel the exact same way chief.......the ballot will decide, but it wont be rerun next year if its a YES now will it.

You ask me to vote on something & i say no to it.

You say why no?

I tell you the reasons why.

You say OK well sort it & come back to me with the same thing & ask me to vote on it.

I say???????

No - Correct as the criteria hasnt changed since the first time.
Yes - Stupidity given it has already been answered NO.

The best way to describe the treaty being put to us again & the so called Guarantees that we have received is a quote from the movie the Outlaw Josey Wales with Clint Eastwood;

"Dont pi.ss down my back & tell me its raining"

A yes vote is all that is required & we are not going to change the content is the european way......tell me how that is democratic or fair.

Is D'éirinn mé - I am of Ireland

I put Ireland first & europe second you cannot tell me that this will put ireland first. It will put europe first & ireland second plain & simple.

Guarantees are 100% fully legally binding agreements under international law (the Vienna Convention), but you know all of this already .

I take it you have conceeded your death penalty 'argument' as well.

meglome

theasylumkey wrote: »

I feel the exact same way chief.......the ballot will decide, but it wont be rerun next year if its a YES now will it.

You ask me to vote on something & i say no to it.

You say why no?

I tell you the reasons why.

You say OK well sort it & come back to me with the same thing & ask me to vote on it.

I say???????

No - Correct as the criteria hasnt changed since the first time.
Yes - Stupidity given it has already been answered NO.

The best way to describe the treaty being put to us again & the so called Guarantees that we have received is a quote from the movie the Outlaw Josey Wales with Clint Eastwood;

"Dont pi.ss down my back & tell me its raining"

A yes vote is all that is required & we are not going to change the content is the european way......tell me how that is democratic or fair.

Is D'éirinn mé - I am of Ireland

I put Ireland first & europe second you cannot tell me that this will put ireland first. It will put europe first & ireland second plain & simple.

How's this new conspiracy theories blog of yours going?

ei.sdraob

marco_polo wrote: »

Guarantees are 100% fully legally binding agreements under international law (the Vienna Convention), but you know all of this already .

I take it you have conceeded your death penalty 'argument' as well.

Dont get your hopes up

we have shown via the use of referenced facts and logic

that his opinions are based on ****

one has to be a man to be able to admit his in the wrong about something

more than likely he will just dissapear now, at least we have the last word

Undergod

ei.sdraob wrote: »

yes almost all EU countries have signed up to prevent capital punishment

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Europe

with Latvia being the last one

waiting for us to pass the damned treaty

hope that makes it clear.

the EU is extremely anti death penalty


/

I wasn't really asking about the death penalty specifically, just in general.

Is mise le key

marco_polo wrote: »

Guarantees are 100% fully legally binding agreements under international law (the Vienna Convention), but you know all of this already .

Funny seeing as irelands leading solicitors (who actually work in law) disagree with that & if so then why not put them in the treaty to take away the legal aspect of the NO argument?????

marco_polo wrote: »

I take it you have conceeded your death penalty 'argument' as well.

All has been said & refernced that need to be over the last three pages if you cant get it from that then you never will. Friday will be the answer AGAIN.

marco_polo

theasylumkey wrote: »

Funny seeing as irelands leading solicitors (who actually work in law) disagree with that & if so then why not put them in the treaty to take away the legal aspect of the NO argument?????

I am going to play the 'source please' card here?

Undergod

theasylumkey wrote: »

You ask me to vote on something & i say no to it.

You say why no?

I tell you the reasons why.

You say OK well sort it & come back to me with the same thing with legally binding agreements stating the reasons you voted no are not in thh treaty & ask me to vote on it.

That's better.

Is mise le key

meglome wrote: »

How's this new conspiracy theories blog of yours going?

Its gaining ground my friend:D;)

ei.sdraob wrote: »

one has to be a man to be able to admit his in the wrong about something

My good man Meglome can vouch for me as being able to admit when i am wrong as i have in the past concceded to him on one point......i will not however just roll over for the EU & take their medicine no matter how many times they tell me its good for me......i'll be my own judge of whats good for me please, thank you.

ei.sdraob

theasylumkey wrote: »

Its gaining ground my friend:D;)



My good man Meglome can vouch for me as being able to admit when i am wrong as i have in the past concceded to him on one point......i will not however just roll over for the EU & take their medicine no matter how many times they tell me its good for me......i'll be my own judge of whats good for me please, thank you.

so you still insist Lisbon and EU would bring in death penalty

:rolleyes:

mizhell

theasylumkey wrote: »

I feel the exact same way chief.......the ballot will decide, but it wont be rerun next year if its a YES now will it.

You ask me to vote on something & i say no to it.

You say why no?

I tell you the reasons why.

You say OK well sort it & come back to me with the same thing & ask me to vote on it.

I say???????

No - Correct as the criteria hasnt changed since the first time.
Yes - Stupidity given it has already been answered NO.

The best way to describe the treaty being put to us again & the so called Guarantees that we have received is a quote from the movie the Outlaw Josey Wales with Clint Eastwood;

"Dont pi.ss down my back & tell me its raining"

A yes vote is all that is required & we are not going to change the content is the european way......tell me how that is democratic or fair.

Is D'éirinn mé - I am of Ireland

I put Ireland first & europe second you cannot tell me that this will put ireland first. It will put europe first & ireland second plain & simple.

ya might not have seen the no posters out and about there man but are they not all different from the last time the treaty was voted on? why aren't the parties campaigning for a no asking for the same things as they did last time if nothing has changed?

Is mise le key

mizhell wrote: »

ya might not have seen the no posters out and about there man but are they not all different from the last time the treaty was voted on? why aren't the parties campaigning for a no asking for the same things as they did last time if nothing has changed?

Well there is so much to choose from why not be diverse.....one thing i can say for you all lads on here & other threads you are monotonous with your views:D

Sam Vimes

theasylumkey wrote: »

Well there is so much to choose from why not be diverse.....one thing i can say for you all lads on here & other threads you are monotonous with your views:D

The truth can be quite monotonous. Conspiracy theories, while compelling, aren't much good to anyone

mizhell

theasylumkey wrote: »

Well there is so much to choose from why not be diverse.....one thing i can say for you all lads on here & other threads you are monotonous with your views:D

I dont think diverse would be the word I would use..... and yeah your right it does feel very boring being right but thanks for the concern:P

Is mise le key

Sam Vimes wrote: »

The truth can be quite monotonous. Conspiracy theories, while compelling, aren't much good to anyone

Like i said on another thread its easy to throw out that old chestnut when someone opposes the mainstream:rolleyes:.

1. I dont give a sh.it who shot JFK.
2. George bush is not an alien just an as.shole.
3. We did land on the moon.
4. Elvis is dead.
5. Politicians are deceiptful & corrupt.

No conspiracies there:rolleyes:

ixtlan

theasylumkey wrote: »

Well there is so much to choose from why not be diverse.....one thing i can say for you all lads on here & other threads you are monotonous with your views:D

Indeed. What I find monotonous is having to repeat endlessly the same truths to dispell the lies being peddled.

Can you clarify once again... are you standing by "EU introduces death penalty"? When article 13 of the ECHR forbids it in all circumstances... and when 22 of the 27 countries have ratified article 13... and when the other 5 have signed but have yet to fully ratify it.

To repeat, article 6 of the ECHR bans the death penalty in most circumstances. Ireland signed up to that long ago. Article 13 bans it in all circumstances and Ireland signed up to that in 2002. Lisbon basically says that the EU will folow the ECHR.

This is getting so depressing. The policy of many on the no side is to throw as much mud as possible at the EU and the Lisbon treaty. The yes side refutes it, but not everyone hears that, so a few percent of people believe the outrageous lies.

So, are you just a mud-slinger? You will keep telling people the EU is introducing the death penalty? Even though you know this to be untrue?

ix.

Is mise le key

ixtlan wrote: »

Lisbon basically says that the EU will folow the ECHR.

And here is the exact part in question with the contentious statement at the end of it......

http://www.eucharter.org/home.php?page_id=9

Provisions are made for it for any state for reasons already outlined over the past 4 pages.

Explain to me how you interpret the final paragraph my good man.

Is mise le key

Seeing as every source of independant media not under the control of the powers that want a Yes are being rejected as conspiracies & conjecture i have changed my Signature to contain it only from the horses mouth.....:D;)

ixtlan

theasylumkey wrote: »

And here is the exact part in question with the contentious statement at the end of it......

http://www.eucharter.org/home.php?page_id=9

Provisions are made for it for any state for reasons already outlined over the past 4 pages.

Explain to me how you interpret the final paragraph my good man.

I'm practically crying in frustration...

The interpretation of protocol 6 is ... a state can execute people in time of war or covil unrest.

However we have also signed protocol 13, which says. http://conventions.coe.int/Treaty/en/Treaties/Html/187.htm

Article 1 – Abolition of the death penalty
The death penalty shall be abolished. No one shall be condemned to such penalty or executed.

Article 2 – Prohibition of derogation
No derogation from the provisions of this Protocol shall be made under Article 15 of the Convention.

Article 3 – Prohibition of reservations
No reservation may be made under Article 57 of the Convention in respect of the provisions of this Protocol.

etc etc etc.

Would you care to interpret? Or agree that my interpretation and the interpretation of the world is correct in that protocol 13 supercedes protocol 6 and bans the death penalty on all circumstances.

Let's be clear on some other things. The ECHR is outside the remit of the EU. We signed signed up to it in pieces over the decades. The reason it's split into sections (protocols) like this is so that states can sign up as they are ready. First we signed up to 6... then in 2002 we signed 13.

Would you for the love of God admit that signing protocol 13 means that the death penalty is outlawed? And that the EU wants all states to fully ratify protocol 13? And that 22 have ratified, and 5 have signed but not yet fully ratified?

Ix.

marco_polo

theasylumkey wrote: »

And here is the exact part in question with the contentious statement at the end of it......

http://www.eucharter.org/home.php?page_id=9

Provisions are made for it for any state for reasons already outlined over the past 4 pages.

Explain to me how you interpret the final paragraph my good man.

1) Do you understand the difference between the Council of Europe and the European Union?

2) Do you understand the difference between the Charter of Fundamelnal Rights and the European Convention on Human Rights?

ixtlan

And just to add a little more from protocol 13 of the charter... The European Charter of Human Rights... not the Eu Charter of Fundamental Rights...

The member States of the Council of Europe signatory hereto,

Convinced that everyone’s right to life is a basic value in a democratic society and that the abolition of the death penalty is essential for the protection of this right and for the full recognition of the inherent dignity of all human beings;

Wishing to strengthen the protection of the right to life guaranteed by the Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms signed at Rome on 4 November 1950 (hereinafter referred to as "the Convention");

Noting that Protocol No. 6 to the Convention, concerning the Abolition of the Death Penalty, signed at Strasbourg on 28 April 1983, does not exclude the death penalty in respect of acts committed in time of war or of imminent threat of war;

Being resolved to take the final step in order to abolish the death penalty in all circumstances,

Have agreed as follows: ...

Is mise le key

ixtlan wrote: »

The interpretation of protocol 6 is ... a state can execute people in time of war or civil unrest.

Thanks.

ixtlan

theasylumkey wrote: »

Thanks.

And the interpretation of protocol 13 is ???


Or are you running away now?

ix.

marco_polo

Proof by assertion is a logical fallacy in which a proposition is repeatedly restated regardless of contradiction.

Is mise le key

Gentle men i have enjoyed the time dicussing to pros, cons, truths & falsehoods altough we have not agreed on many if not all, however i must withdraw from posting here as i have found now that the powers that run the thread are affording disproportionate disciplinary measures to my self......the actual post in question has been removed since yesterday that warranted a yellow card as i have recieved for the second post down quoted here. The first post quoted was a post i made yesterday & i have included the response that i received from i think it was Marco_polo.....


Post 1 in question;

theasylumkey wrote: »

Seeing as every source of independant media not under the control of the powers that want a Yes are being rejected as conspiracies & conjecture i have changed my Signature to contain it only from the horses mouth.....:D;)

Response posted yesterday;

LOL:pac:

Second post in question;(which was my edit of ixtan's original)

The interpretation of protocol 6 is ... a state can execute people in time of war or civil unrest

My response;

theasylumkey wrote: »

Thanks.

Now i have recived a warning from Mod Oscarbravo regarding my response to ixtlan & post remains on thread where the response to my post containing 'LOL:pac:' from Marco_polo has been removed & no yellow card is subsequently held against that member. It looks to me as if a quiet word was afforded to that user & post simply removed wher as i have been given a step closer to being bannned......this is disproportionate & an indication that the thread is not being moderated impartially for these reasons i cannot continue posting.

I respect all of you & your opinions as Irish men whatever the out come.
Whether it be Yes or No i extend my Virtual hand to either congratulate your victory or comisirate your failure.

Fairness & Freedom is what this great nation is founded on & i am sorry to say that the opposite has reared its ugly head here ever so slightly & is not something i will contribute to. No doubt this post will be erased also.

mizhell

theasylumkey wrote: »

Gentle men i have enjoyed the time dicussing to pros, cons, truths & falsehoods altough we have not agreed on many if not all, however i must withdraw from posting here as i have found now that the powers that run the thread are affording disproportionate disciplinary measures to my self......the actual post in question has been removed since yesterday that warranted a yellow card as i have recieved for the second post down quoted here. The first post quoted was a post i made yesterday & i have included the response that i received from i think it was Marco_polo.....


Post 1 in question;

Response posted yesterday;



Second post in question;(which was my edit of ixtan's original)


My response;



Now i have recived a warning from Mod Oscarbravo regarding my response to ixtlan & post remains on thread where the response to my post containing 'LOL:pac:' from Marco_polo has been removed & no yellow card is subsequently held against that member. It looks to me as if a quiet word was afforded to that user & post simply removed wher as i have been given a step closer to being bannned......this is disproportionate & an indication that the thread is not being moderated impartially for these reasons i cannot continue posting.

I respect all of you & your opinions as Irish men whatever the out come.
Whether it be Yes or No i extend my Virtual hand to either congratulate your victory or comisirate your failure.

Fairness & Freedom is what this great nation is founded on & i am sorry to say that the opposite has reared its ugly head here ever so slightly & is not something i will contribute to. No doubt this post will be erased also.

anyone care to elaborate or is that against the rules?

marco_polo

marco_polo wrote: »

1) Do you understand the difference between the Council of Europe and the European Union?

2) Do you understand the difference between the Charter of Fundamelnal Rights and the European Convention on Human Rights?

In fact I edited my own post, to turn it into a mini Euro pop quiz. Which you have avoided taking so far.

bonkey

mizhell wrote: »

anyone care to elaborate or is that against the rules?

No and yes, respectively.

From the charter:

The moderators will not discuss their moderating in the Politics threads. If you wish to discuss moderation, there is one specific thread to do so here. This is the only thread in this forum where moderation may be discussed. If you wish to discuss an issue with a moderator privately or directly, either PM the moderators, or take it to the Helpdesk forum.

Is mise le key

marco_polo wrote: »

In fact I edited my own post, to turn it into a mini Euro pop quiz. Which you have avoided taking so far.

I will have to disagree with you & not go down the road i would like to as it will result in my banning from the boards.....if you undertook a lets say comprehensive Edit of you original post removing both the quote from myself you included to replace with a new one & the body of your text it would state at the bottom of the post time, date & reason for editing with your name beside it as is the case with all posts that receive an Edit.....

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62312745&postcount=50

This is not the case which leaves only the former option.

I am disheartened at the way things have unfolded here.

Good luck on friday.

marco_polo

theasylumkey wrote: »

I will have to disagree with you & not go down the road i would like to as it will result in my banning from the boards.....if you undertook a lets say comprehensive Edit of you original post removing both the quote from myself you included to replace with a new one & the body of your text it would state at the bottom of the post time, date & reason for editing with your name beside it as is the case with all posts that receive an Edit.....

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62312745&postcount=50

This is not the case which leaves only the former option.

I am disheartened at the way things have unfolded here.

Good luck on friday.

Not if you are fast enough.

Want to answer the questions I asked now?

Is mise le key

marco_polo wrote: »

Not if you are fast enough.

Want to answer the questions I asked now?

Im sorry my friend i distinctly remember reading replys as they were coming in & i did not have to scroll back up through the page to read what you said you edited in place of your original post.