O'Keeffe wants new teachers to be given substitute priority

Tom Dunne

According to today's Sunday Business Post (no link online yet), the minister for education is sending a circular to schools asking them to give priority to newly qualified teachers over retired teachers.

Will it happen, do you think? Or is it just more lip service?

spurious

Looks like he doesn't understand the S&S system the DES insisted schools use.

The likelihood of getting anywhere near retired teachers for substitution in second level is very remote as they would not be considered until after exhausting class teachers (where a class is out on a trip or similar), S&S people, part-time teachers, learning support teachers - that is the approved procedure.

He could do with help from some of the special needs classes he cut.

The sooner we have an election and get rid of the FF gangsters and their toadying green lapdogs the better.

Tom Dunne

spurious wrote: »

Looks like he doesn't understand the S&S system the DES insisted schools use.

Not too familiar with the term S&S - what is it?

spurious wrote: »

The likelihood of getting anywhere near retired teachers for substitution in second level is very remote as they would not be considered until after exhausting class teachers (where a class is out on a trip or similar), S&S people, part-time teachers, learning support teachers - that is the approved procedure.

So is he essentially asking that principals circumvent established procedures?

spurious wrote: »

The sooner we have an election and get rid of the FF gangsters and their toadying green lapdogs the better.

Do you really think Kenny and his bunch of clowns would be any better? I have no faith in the man.

slickmcvic

...i actually se where he's coming from here!
theres teachers that retire but re-enter the system a term later only this time on the part -time hourly rate often doing the job they retired from...these part -time hours wouldbe much more valuable to an NQT than an aul lad whoose best mates with the principal!

spurious

Tom Dunne wrote: »

Not too familiar with the term S&S - what is it?

Sorry, S&S is Supervision and Substitution. It's the procedure that kicks in when someone is out sick.

Tom Dunne wrote: »

So is he essentially asking that principals circumvent established procedures?

There is an agreed hierarchy of who gets called on first and bringing in someone from outside is way down the list.

It's as if I said, you know Tom, the next time I need a man to deliver my caviar on my tropical island, I guarantee I'll call you.

Don't hold your breath.

Here's a novel idea Minister, just stop jamming kids into enormous classes, bring back special needs, language and learning support provisions and employ a decent number of teachers in the first place. Don't have newly qualified teachers scrabbling about for substitution classes, give them a chance of a proper bloody job.

At a minimum, introduce the Australian system of workers paying for their own optional paid year off every tenth year. This will cost nothing extra (in fact it saves money) and allows new teachers gain a year's experience.

Tom Dunne wrote: »

Do you really think Kenny and his bunch of clowns would be any better? I have no faith in the man.

They cannot be worse, really.
The damage that has been done in the last couple of years, particularly to the more vulnerable people in education is almost criminal, while the O'Donoghues, Aherns and all their greedy, dribbling cronies partied.

mrboswell

It doesn't matter - its still lip service. So long as there is a choice schools will pick who they like for substitution and in some cases even the best person they can find.

This isn't a FF vs the rest (and I'm not FF!) debate but FF need to be voted out otherwise they will just keep messing it up. There needs to be a new government that reform the public sector for the sake of all departments, not just education.

Rosita

spurious wrote: »

Here's a novel idea Minister, just stop jamming kids into enormous classes, bring back special needs, language and learning support provisions and employ a decent number of teachers in the first place. Don't have newly qualified teachers scrabbling about for substitution classes, give them a chance of a proper bloody job.

There are a few problems with this. "stop jamming kids into enormous classes, bring back special needs, language and learning support provisions and employ a decent number of teachers in the first place" costs more money and there is a substantial exchequer deficit (and blaming FF won't change this reality, it is a problem in countless countries which didn't have FF in government - and a new government would have exactly the same problem) right now.

As for newly qualified teachers getting the chance of a job, I don't really understand this. How do you do that? Create new jobs for the sake of it?

Put simply, how would you propose to fund the suggestions you are making?

spurious

Under the Australian (and I think also NZ, but not sure) system, teachers and other workers can opt to pay extra funds into what is effectively a pension fund running alongside the normal one. This gives the opportunity to self-fund every tenth year off work. With some co-ordination, NQTs can be slotted in for a full year's work.

The cost of the NQT is obviously much less than the cost of a teacher with 10 or 20 yrs + experience, so the Dept of Ed. saves money, the NQT gets meaningful experience and the original teacher gets a (self) paid year off if they want. Not everyone takes it up though and some save up their years to retire early, but it certainly lessens stress and opens up the jobs market.

I would rationalise second level schools by taking the voluntary secondary schools under the VECs and stop triplicating facilities in every town in Ireland.

Rosita

spurious wrote: »

1) Under the Australian (and I think also NZ, but not sure) system, teachers and other workers can opt to pay extra funds into what is effectively a pension fund running alongside the normal one. This gives the opportunity to self-fund every tenth year off work. With some co-ordination, NQTs can be slotted in for a full year's work.

The cost of the NQT is obviously much less than the cost of a teacher with 10 or 20 yrs + experience, so the Dept of Ed. saves money, the NQT gets meaningful experience and the original teacher gets a (self) paid year off if they want. Not everyone takes it up though and some save up their years to retire early, but it certainly lessens stress and opens up the jobs market.

2) I would rationalise second level schools by taking the voluntary secondary schools under the VECs and stop triplicating facilities in every town in Ireland.

1) I'm not sure this plan would amount to giving people a genuine chance of jobs in any real sense. It seems just a glorified substitution system.

2) This makes sense at one level but it's a long-term aspiration which would probably cost more to implement than it would save in the short term.

pjtb

My old primary school regularly employs retired teachers to substitute. Recently a teacher who retired around three years ago covered a maternity leave which lasted nearly the full year. Some parents weren't very impressed- the teacher wasn't terrible, but she didn't bring as much to the classroom as a more recently qualified teacher might have. Another retired teacher who is nearly blind, and very feeble also gets work regularly in another school. When I was in primary school, which wasn't that long ago, we often had retired teachers as substitutes. They frightened the life out of us most of the time, and were often out of touch with what they should actually be teaching the class level they had. One retired teacher introduced my sister's class to the modh coinníollach when she was in second class ! I didn't do it until 5th year in secondary school!

At a time when many NQTs are unemployed this should not be happening.

rainbowtrout

pjtb wrote: »

My old primary school regularly employs retired teachers to substitute. Recently a teacher who retired around three years ago covered a maternity leave which lasted nearly the full year. Some parents weren't very impressed- the teacher wasn't terrible, but she didn't bring as much to the classroom as a more recently qualified teacher might have. Another retired teacher who is nearly blind, and very feeble also gets work regularly in another school. When I was in primary school, which wasn't that long ago, we often had retired teachers as substitutes. They frightened the life out of us most of the time, and were often out of touch with what they should actually be teaching the class level they had. One retired teacher introduced my sister's class to the modh coinníollach when she was in second class ! I didn't do it until 5th year in secondary school!
At a time when many NQTs are unemployed this should not be happening.

I did the modh coinniollach in primary school, I'd be amazed if it's not on the curriculum now until 5th year. But I do get your point.

We had 5 or 6 hours a week available for home economics a couple of years ago, the main home ec teacher had a full timetable already and a retired teacher was brought in for 3 or 4 years to teach instead of giving it to an NQT. On the other hand our deputy principal brings in his wife (granted she's a qualified teacher with plenty of experience, but not working) to do subbing. Very frustrating for those on 12 or 14 hours who hope there'll will be a bit of S&S for them if they know a teacher is going to be away and to see her name up to cover all the classes that day, but that's a whole other thread.

ytareh

While Im no FF supporter I find the FG policy of cutting the Summer hols by a month far too bitter a pill to swallow.Neither am I an Sinn Fein supporter but they are the only party REMOTELY teacher friendly ...who would have thought it 15 years ago...Sure it seems public service bashing is standard policy with practically every other segment of society nowadays...Grim times all round and for sure for young/NQ teachers...Sad...

spurious

Cutting the summer break can't and won't happen without wholesale reform of the exam system.
Yet more pollies that need to go back to learn what they are talking about.

implausible

Anyone else think it's daft that schools should have to be told to do this?!

There are dozens of qualified teachers' cvs sitting in every principal's office throughout the country and O'Keefe has to come up with the radical idea of telling them to actually look at them and give them a shoe in the door!

byhookorbycrook

deemark wrote: »

Anyone else think it's daft that schools should have to be told to do this?!

There are dozens of qualified teachers' cvs sitting in every principal's office throughout the country and O'Keefe has to come up with the radical idea of telling them to actually look at them and give them a shoe in the door!

Nice soundbite for the Batt, look I care about NQTs