Who is to blame for the recession?

Stark

And the greedy muppets who voted for FF because FF policies would put the money into their pockets instead of infrastructure for the country.

kelle

I blame the banks, relaxing their policies on giving out mortgages. This allowed people to take out bigger mortgages, which in turn allowed developers to hike up house prices.

Back in 1997, the highest mortgage I could get was £45,000. This was based on 2.5 x my husband's wages (overtime was not included in the calculation) + 1 x my wage.
8 years later, my work colleague got a mortgage based on 5 x (her wage + her husband's wage + overtime + pensions + children's allowance)! That was scandalous, especially now her husband is out of work and she can no longer work overtime as she has ME, and her children's allowance is probably going to be cut in the next budget!

Chickus

kelle wrote: »

I blame the banks, relaxing their policies on giving out mortgages. This allowed people to take out bigger mortgages, which in turn allowed developers to hike up house prices.

Back in 1997, the highest mortgage I could get was £45,000. This was based on 2.5 x my husband's wages (overtime was not included in the calculation) + 1 x my wage.
8 years later, my work colleague got a mortgage based on 5 x (her wage + her husband's wage + overtime + pensions + children's allowance)! That was scandalous, especially now her husband is out of work and she can no longer work overtime as she has ME, and her children's allowance is probably going to be cut in the next budget!

You lay 100% of the blame on the shoulders of the banks? Your work colleague who agreed to take out such a loan is in no way shape or form responsible?

It takes two to tango. I'm sick of hearing people saying "the bank shouldn't have given me such a big loan". It's not like they took your free will as well. Did the bank forge your work colleagues signature on the loan application?

No - I didn't think so.

Agricola

Well I think the blame is equally shared among politicians and bankers. Most economists would say that the mark of good government is to cool an overheating economy by at the very least keeping taxation at the current level if not actually increasing it. What did FF do? Cut tax rates to new lows, spend like there was no tomorrow using revenue from construction transactions and continue to follow short sighted, lowest common denominator policies which would bribe the electorate into voting them back into power.
They also facilitated the bankers who were incredibly reckless and completely forgot what banking and particularly lending is supposed to be about. Prudence and common sense.

I dont aportion any real blame on people who bought into the dream during the celtic tiger. If the politicians and bankers and every other up to recently "respected" pillar of Irish life says everything is rosy in the garden, the less cynical among us will buy into it. Its the job of the government to govern and not allow people to get into situations that cant get out of.
My elderly parents put a lump sum of money into a BOI investment portfolio. They were advised by the consultant working for BOI that investing was the best way to go, despite the fact it wasnt even capital guaranteed. This was a full 4 MONTHS before the **** hit the fan last year. My parents lost their arses to put it mildly. The arrogance of these people makes my blood boil.

orourkeda

blinding wrote: »

When any human enterprise goes tits up. Those that are running the show are responsible for the fook up.

If you are not willing to take the responsibility then do not take the job in the first place.

The politicians that were willing to claim all the credit should also take the brick bats when the fook up.

Some politicians, bankers and developers should be executed for their "leadership" during this crisis.

Politicians are not totally to blame for the situation that we now find ourselves. They've played their part for sure. However, if a magic wand were to be waved and all the politicians who people blame were sacked, what happens then? Are there any reasonable or credible alternatives or would it simply satisfy the publics desire for revenge?

The problem appears to be fair more complex than simply sacking some politicians.

As i've said before the Irish public needs to look at itself in the mirror too. After all let he who is without sin cast the first stone. We need to accept our portion of the blame for a) Electing this government (I didnt vote fianna fail but thats neither here nor there) and b) Contributing to this financial mess that we now find ourselves in by borrowing recklessly in certain sectionns.

JP Liz

THE GOVERNMENT

Chickus

JP Liz wrote: »

THE GOVERNMENT

But the people elect the government, so surely the people are to blame?

gdael

The common theme here is that people think everyone else but themselves are to blame.

Thats so Irish isnt it.

Agricola

Chickus wrote: »

But the people elect the government, so surely the people are to blame?

So if Fine Gael had been in power since '97, we'd be grand would we? Or labour? Those the are only real choices we have and they're all the same when it comes to the crunch. The same economic meltdown thats happening here is being mirrored in most of the developed world, including the US. So the people in all these countries are wrong? All these hundreds of millions of people are all at fault for electing bad governments? Enda Kenny and Eamon Gilmore can spout their righteous crap all they like, but they would have pursued the same flawed policies as FF.

Its a worldwide culture of corporate greed and mismanagement thats got us where we are.

Kipperhell

gdael wrote: »

The common theme here is that people think everyone else but themselves are to blame.

Thats so Irish isnt it.

No that is human nature and in no way a uniquely Irish phenomenon. Very little that Ireland could have done to either create or prevent the current worldwide recession. You might as well claim we caused WWII

orourkeda

Kipperhell wrote: »

No that is human nature and in no way a uniquely Irish phenomenon. Very little that Ireland could have done to either create or prevent the current worldwide recession. You might as well claim we caused WWII

There are aspects to this recession that are uniquely "irish"

kelle

Chickus wrote: »

You lay 100% of the blame on the shoulders of the banks? Your work colleague who agreed to take out such a loan is in no way shape or form responsible?

It takes two to tango. I'm sick of hearing people saying "the bank shouldn't have given me such a big loan". It's not like they took your free will as well. Did the bank forge your work colleagues signature on the loan application?

No - I didn't think so.

You're not getting my point. What I said was that if the banks hadn't relaxed their criteria the prices of houses would never have been driven up. When house prices were going up so too were rents, so people felt it was better to pay a mortgage than dead money in rent. It wasn't this person's fault that house prices were sky high.

Regardless, she's paying the price now.

A_SN

gdael wrote: »

The common theme here is that people think everyone else but themselves are to blame.

Thats so Irish isnt it.

No actually that's pretty universal.

dyl10

trout wrote: »

Did you really need that plasma TV ?

No, didn't need it, but if I bought it it within my means, I don't see how that has a bearing on the recession

Lots to blame. The recession was inevitable, why we will struggle to get out of it, is the issue.

A_SN

dyl10 wrote: »

No, didn't need it, but if I bought it it within my means, I don't see how that has a bearing on the recession

Actually it has a net positive (good) effect. The problem we have right now is the deflation spiral. See, people spend less, so prices go down, so people spend less because they know the prices will go down (and also because more get laid off or scared of spending), so the prices keep going down. That's why you have all these stimuluses out there. When in a recession, basically you need to spend your way back up. It might sound at first counter-intuitive but that's the way it works. In the face of a recession/depression the worst thing to do is to stop spending, cause then it grinds the economy to a halt and then you're deeply ****ed.

So if you can, do spend all your savings on a plasma TV.

netwhizkid

Liberal thinking, weak leadership and trade unions, the EU and Euro are to blame for this recession.

We need a strong conservative government, we need to control our economy and crush the liberals who got us into this mess in the first place.

Ireland needs to:

Cut Taxes,
Increase Employment
Stop all Immigration and stop the free movement of people from the EU.
All non-EU work permits to be revoked and Irish first rules apply for work here.
Privatise Health
Cut Corporation tax
Stop NAMA
Let the banks go to the Wall

We need reagonomics in Ireland badly and we need to end the welfare state and reduce the Governments role to minimal levels eg.

Private Education, Private Health, Axe the County Councils and instead outsource the management of council facilites to private companies. All Public Housing to privatised en-mass to a private company and begin evictions and increase rents to market levels.

A_SN

netwhizkid wrote: »

Liberal thinking, weak leadership and trade unions, the EU and Euro are to blame for this recession.

We need a strong conservative government, we need to control our economy and crush the liberals who got us into this mess in the first place.

Ireland needs to:

Cut Taxes,
Increase Employment
Stop all Immigration and stop the free movement of people from the EU.
All non-EU work permits to be revoked and Irish first rules apply for work here.
Privatise Health
Cut Corporation tax
Stop NAMA
Let the banks go to the Wall

We need reagonomics in Ireland badly and we need to end the welfare state and reduce the Governments role to minimal levels eg.

Private Education, Private Health, Axe the County Councils and instead outsource the management of council facilites to private companies. All Public Housing to privatised en-mass to a private company and begin evictions and increase rents to market levels.

*facepalm*

netwhizkid

A_SN wrote: »

*facepalm*

Oh Noes!

dyl10

I reckon with AH collective unity we can shift our aggregate demand curve back to the right

A_SN

netwhizkid wrote: »

Oh Noes!

Sorry, my bad, you're right, let's blame the worldwide made-in-America crisis on the Euro, immigrants and whatever else people like you always blame when there's something to blame for.

dyl10

netwhizkid wrote: »

Liberal thinking, weak leadership and trade unions, the EU and Euro are to blame for this recession.

We need a strong conservative government, we need to control our economy and crush the liberals who got us into this mess in the first place.

Ireland needs to:

Cut Taxes,
Increase Employment
Stop all Immigration and stop the free movement of people from the EU.
All non-EU work permits to be revoked and Irish first rules apply for work here.
Privatise Health
Cut Corporation tax
Stop NAMA
Let the banks go to the Wall

We need reagonomics in Ireland badly and we need to end the welfare state and reduce the Governments role to minimal levels eg.

Private Education, Private Health, Axe the County Councils and instead outsource the management of council facilites to private companies. All Public Housing to privatised en-mass to a private company and begin evictions and increase rents to market levels.

Eww

A_SN

dyl10 wrote: »

I reckon with AH collective unity we can shift our aggregate demand curve back to the right

God damn it you're right! Let's have one of those demented Roman orgy-like AH beers and stimulate the economy by sipping all its beer! WHO'S WITH ME!!!

netwhizkid

dyl10 wrote: »

Eww

A truly great man compared to Mr. Obama.

A_SN

netwhizkid wrote: »

A truly great man compared to Mr. Obama.

Obvious troll is still not getting subtle.

And since you don't like stimuluses you're not invited to my stimulus AH beers :pac:

netwhizkid

A_SN wrote: »

Obvious troll is still not getting subtle.

And since you don't like stimuluses you're not invited to my stimulus AH beers :pac:

Beers with anti-Bush liberals.... No thanks

A_SN

netwhizkid wrote: »

Beers with anti-Bush liberals.... No thanks

Who's anti-Bush? I'm not. As a matter of fact I love the guy! I'd especially would like to have a beer with him. Also, he's pro-stimuluses, so maybe I should invite him to the aforementioned beers!

dyl10

netwhizkid wrote: »

Beers with anti-Bush liberals.... No thanks

It's alright, you weren't invited anyway.

blinding

orourkeda wrote: »

Politicians are not totally to blame for the situation that we now find ourselves. They've played their part for sure. However, if a magic wand were to be waved and all the politicians who people blame were sacked, what happens then? Are there any reasonable or credible alternatives or would it simply satisfy the publics desire for revenge?

The problem appears to be fair more complex than simply sacking some politicians.

As i've said before the Irish public needs to look at itself in the mirror too. After all let he who is without sin cast the first stone. We need to accept our portion of the blame for a) Electing this government (I didnt vote fianna fail but thats neither here nor there) and b) Contributing to this financial mess that we now find ourselves in by borrowing recklessly in certain sectionns.

The people who are big enough to be in charge in the good times must be able to take the hit when they fail. When the small guy fails he is axed.

The hypocracy of the present day failures staying in position is a major failing of our society.

gdael

Kipperhell wrote: »

No that is human nature and in no way a uniquely Irish phenomenon. Very little that Ireland could have done to either create or prevent the current worldwide recession. You might as well claim we caused WWII

So then maybe we should all stop looking for people to blame.

"This person gets paid more than me. It was their fault. Oh look someone bought a house. Burn them"

BizTalker

Kipperhell wrote: »

I knew a lot of people making lots of money and none had anything to do with construction. People are assuming that Ireland somehow was the only country to go into recession. Lots of job losses here are from big international companies who are having cash flow issues nothing to do with our construction industry.

So why is then that the construction sector in Ireland accounted for 23% of the GDP during the boom years, whereas the average in Europe was 12-13%??????????
Probably your people were somewhere in the construction chain.

Gummy Panda

I blame the Decepticons

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJ16d-qpBEE