Does Shay Given have a claim

CHD

kenon wrote: »

But what does that change? Different shots? Smarter players?

He's an international goalkeeper. I understand that the champions league is the "elite" league but I just dont see what changes for a goalkeeper who is experienced in the Premier League and international level.

Smarter players, you hit the nail on the head.

Mr.Nice Guy

realcam wrote:

For starters, why would you rate him better than van de Saar?

He has been called into action far more than Van Der Sar. I made this point in the past already but it bears repeating again. During Van Der Sar's clean sheet run he was called into action the least. Sky's Martin Tyler using Opta Stats worked out that between November 15 and February 1st, Van Der Sar played 12 games and made 19 saves = an average of 1.58 save a game. Cech in the same period played 11 games and had to make 27 saves = an average of 2.45 saves a game.

Given meanwhile in the same period was the second busiest keeper in the league behind Scott Carson of West Brom and in 10 games had to make 41 saves. An average of 4.1 saves every game. Now think of how highly rated Given's performance was last season despite being the second busiest in the league for many periods.

Consider also the fact he has been voted into the PFA Team of the Year on two separate occasions which is a feat that Van Der Sar only just matched last season - and that was on the back of an amazing United defence. Shay has had some terrible defenders in front of him at Newcastle.

Even though I'm a United fan I felt Given was robbed of winning it last year. Van Der Sar didn't deserve it. Only Reina and Schwarzer came close to Given from what I could see and both had more lapses than Shay from what I observed. Cech wouldn't come into it as he had probably his worst season for Chelsea last year, following on from a poor Euro 2008.

I honestly think Given doesn't get the credit he deserves. If he was English he would be hailed in the same way Lampard, Gerrard, Cole, Rooney etc. are lauded as being some of the best in their positions. His misfortune is that he has been saddled with poor teams for most of his career. I'd like to see him experience Champions League football and get the worldwide acclaim he deserves.

By the way someone mentioned his height as a factor against him, he's actually 6'1 and taller than Casillas.

marko91

he is world class..best keeper in the world i do not know but what i do know is that having him play in goal for my country makes me very proud!

Dante

Shays consistency is probably his best asset. He performs brilliantly week in week out for club and country and is only recently being properly acknowledged for it. IMO he is just behind Buffon as the worlds best. I could never understand why Arsenal never tried to sign him....they have struggled a lot with goalkeepers since David Seaman and there was always the odd rumour of an interest but it never actually happened. Arsenal would undoubtedly be a better side had they of signed him.

kenon

realcam wrote: »

Like another poster said he's glued to the line, can't deny that. Also I think the best goalie in the world does things like excellent break opening throws.

He has excellent break opening punts.

CHD wrote: »

Smarter players, you hit the nail on the head.

Cool, but what do they do that will challenge Shay Given in a way that he wouldn't experience at international and Premier League level? I just dont feel that keepers that haven't played much in the champions league should be written off.

podge018

A quick list of goalkeepers who, overall, are better than Shay Given:

Casillas
Buffon
Julio cesar
Reina
Akinfeev
Adler
Cech
Van der Sar

kenon

podge018 wrote: »

A quick list of goalkeepers who, overall, are better than Shay Given in my opinion:

Casillas
Buffon
Julio cesar
Reina
Akinfeev
Adler
Cech
Van der Sar

FYP

Boskowski

parker kent wrote: »

...in European terms, there are not much better. Buffon yes, Casillas perhaps...

Well, but then how many European goalies do you know? I surely don't know all of them, but I follow the Bundesliga also and I'd rate Adler, Enke & Hildebrandt and possibly the young Schalke guy Neuer equally good if not better (overall package).

For all I know there could be dozens of French, Russian (Akinfeev ain't bad for starters) and whatnot goalies that are excellent but we don't see them every week.

We all are biased towards what we know and admire. Very easy to fall into the trap of overrating.

podge018

of course it's my opinion, that's what you put on a discussion forum.

Mr.Nice Guy

realcam wrote: »

Well, but then how many European goalies do you know? I surely don't know all of them, but I follow the Bundesliga also and I'd rate Adler, Enke & Hildebrandt and possibly the young Schalke guy Neuer equally good if not better (overall package).

For all I know there could be dozens of French, Russian (Akinfeev ain't bad for starters) and whatnot goalies that are excellent but we don't see them every week.

We all are biased towards what we know and admire. Very easy to fall into the trap of overrating.

There was a goalkeeper in the Dutch league hailed as a future star. He was bought by a Premiership club on the belief he could be a hit in the Premier League.

His name was Heurelho Gomes.

Dante

realcam wrote: »

I follow the Bundesliga also and I'd rate Adler, Enke & Hildebrandt and possibly the young Schalke guy Neuer equally good if not better (overall package).

I personally wouldn't rate any of them better than Shay although I must admit being extremely impressed with Enke every time I see him play.

Boskowski

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

His name was Heurelho Gomes.

he's a muppet

CHD

kenon wrote: »

He has excellent break opening punts.



Cool, but what do they do that will challenge Shay Given in a way that he wouldn't experience at international and Premier League level? I just dont feel that keepers that haven't played much in the champions league should be written off.

Shouldn't be written of at all, Given will come up against top class attacking teams 6/7 times a season, you can double that and more if playing CL football and that gives him a bigger chance to prove his credentials as a world class keeper. He might get CL football next year, maybe!

GLaDOS

He's good but he's no Brian Murphy...

flahavaj

The one thing that I think lets him down is perhaps he could be better at organising his defence in front of him. Is it a co-incidence that the back fours that play in front of him always seem to be in total chaos, and should be be organising them more? Hes an exceptional shot stopper no doubt. Theres a few better candidates around the world though, they've all been named by others.

Bubs101

Like there's absolutely no doubting he's a good keeper but he has no claim to be the best in the world. He never has been and given the age of Julio Cesar, Buffon and Casillas he never will be. Those guys are just better, no doubt about it. You can argue who's better between Reina, Cech and Given all you want but none of them hold a candle to the above

Mr.Nice Guy

Bubs101 wrote: »

Like there's absolutely no doubting he's a good keeper but he has no claim to be the best in the world. He never has been and given the age of Julio Cesar, Buffon and Casillas he never will be. Those guys are just better, no doubt about it. You can argue who's better between Reina, Cech and Given all you want but none of them hold a candle to the above

Are you really ranking Cesar above him? The guy who wasn't able to dislodge Dida from the Brazil team during the period Given was winning widespread acclaim in the Premiership?

I think Shay's main problem is that he wasn't born Che Antonio Givinho. If it was then maybe he'd get the praise he warrants.

Why did he stay at newcastle as long as he did? I never understood why he didn'ttry and get into a bigger team...

Bubs101

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Are you really ranking Cesar above him? The guy who wasn't able to dislodge Dida from the Brazil team during the period Given was winning widespread acclaim in the Premiership?

I think Shay's main problem is that he wasn't born Che Antonio Givinho. If it was then maybe he'd get the praise he warrants.

You can't judge a player based on the retardation of his national coach. Sebastian Frey is the best example of that. Not even the most bias of Milan fans will claim that Dida was ever the keeper that Cesar is now

Regardless, Cesar has 40+ caps for Brazil and in the past 2 years has been absolutely phenomenal. He was easily better than Gigi Buffon last year and I'm a Juve fan.

Shay gets the praise he warrants. He's a good keeper, arguably great but there is no way he could claim to be the best around. No way.

Better keepers like Peruzzi have been in the exact same position in the past where they have been phenomenal, won everything but there has always been someone better. Peruzzi was amazing for years and years and years but he was never better than Schmeichal, Khan or Buffon at their peaks. At times he was better than all of them but never at one time. Given has never been better than Buffon or Casillas

Neil3030

Papa Smut wrote: »

Why did he stay at newcastle as long as he did? I never understood why he didn'ttry and get into a bigger team...

Presume he was settled in the region.

aidan24326

Papa Smut wrote: »

Why did he stay at newcastle as long as he did? I never understood why he didn'ttry and get into a bigger team...

He was blindly loyal to Newcastle for too long, though to be fair he was pretty settled up there, married with kids and all of that and probably thought things would come right with Newcastle eventually. Unfortunately for him it just went from bad to worse in his last few seasons.

But I'm pretty sure both Ferguson and Wenger did consider buying him, possibly on a couple of occasions in Ferguson's case (I'm sure I once heard Ferguson say in an interview how much he rated Given as a keeper and he mentioned something about why it didn't work out, I can't remember the exact details). It's possible they may have enquired about him and were told he was unavailable. Bear in mind this is going back a few years to when Bobby Robson was there and they actually had a half decent team, so he'd have been more inclined to stay then anyway.

kenon wrote: »

What difference does the champions league make? Harder shots? More shots? Bendier shots?!

The man was behind some rotten Newcastle defenses for a couple of years. Standing behind Boumsong. Given used to get pelted out of it for the whole match. I remember the 5-1 hiding that Liverpool gave newcastle last year, Given was outstanding. Even Gerrard commented on how good he was...in a 5-1 hidin!

That was in a post-match interview, Gerrard specifically commented as to what a world class keeper Given is. Bearing in mind NU had lost 5-1, that shows what a crap defence he was playing behind. Even in 3-0 and 4-0 defeats he was regularly Newcastle's outstanding player. So it's difficult to compare with the likes of Cech who has had top class defenders in front of him. How Given must have wished for a John Terry or a Jamie Carragher.

It's a little easier to organise the defence in front of you when said defence is actually any good. I dare say it's not hard to organise Terry and Carvalho or Ferdinand and Vidic.

LeixlipRed

Has Given made an individual error in an Ireland jersey in his last 50 internationals? Enough said, best keeper in the world by a country mile.

Idu

Is this whole thread based on the fact that he made 4 routine saves today that you would expect a player of given's calibre to make week in, week out? If he wasn't Irish this conversation wouldn't have lasted more than a page. Good keeper but not even close to being the best in the world

Jam-Fly

CHD wrote: »

He is one of the best. Its close between him and Reina imo for EPL's number 1.

Casillas is the worlds best without a doubt.

^^^Exactly, no more need be said on the issue.

civis_liberalis

Idu wrote: »

Is this whole thread based on the fact that he made 4 routine saves today that you would expect a player of given's calibre to make week in, week out? If he wasn't Irish this conversation wouldn't have lasted more than a page. Good keeper but not even close to being the best in the world

I saw RTÉ's coverage this evening and George Hamilton's ****e talk about the excellent saves he was making were very annoying.

As far as I can remember they were all straight at him or not much of a stretch and let's not forget the clanger he let in as well.

Just because he makes lots of routine saves is no real indication of his talent.

I still think he is a great keeper, but let's not get carried away with GH's nonsense.

ANTIFA!

What do Given and Casilias have in common? Both play behind defences that concede tonnes of goals and both receive loads of credit. TBH people are being a bit selective and unfair to Given. Casilias has a lot of the same problems Given has, I never feel Iker commands his box that well either and I have said before that perhaps Given and Casilias have to be looked at when it comes to a teams defensive record.

Realcam, timo hildebrand is terrible lol the nightmare of all valencia fans. he couldnt hack it abroad so returned back to bundesliga. i was a fan but he never established himself in national team even though he was tipped to be the 2006 keeper but ended up behind Lehmann and Kahn.

Oh and Brian Murphy? The best but thats a given:p

Xavi6

civis_liberalis wrote: »

As far as I can remember they were all straight at him or not much of a stretch and let's not forget the clanger he let in as well.

Indeed they were all routine, and any goalkeeper should be saving them. It was poor finishing rather than good keeping. However, the 'clanger' wasn't really a mistake as the header was going wide until it deflected in off Barry's arm.

GavRedKing

Given is up there alright but the amount of " world class " keepers are few and far between. He can claim to be in the top 3 in the premiership with Reina, Van der Sar, Cech the premiership has some of the best keepers in the world.

If Given was to play in more major tournaments he would be regarded as one of the best around having proving himself. Look at Casillas, he often keeps Real in games when there defence decide to switch off and that being Real, could happen at any stage as proven against Liverpool in the champ league throughout the whole game.

given is quality keeper and Ireland are lucky to have him and City too, of all the money they spent he seems to be the safest buy he will always perform well and rarely makes mistake.

flahavaj

I would say guys like Friedel, Schwarzer, Howard and Jaaskelainen, who are all excellent keeprs, are at the same level as Given.

Mr Alan

flahavaj wrote: »

I would say guys like Friedel, Schwarzer, Howard and Jaaskelainen, who are all excellent keeprs, are at the same level as Given.

thats the level i'd have him at also.

chwarzer was the best goalie in the premiership last year.

PHB

lol and lol.

The reason United put in a billion times more crosses than they ever do in the match yesterday? Because Given is, and always has been, terrible at coming for crosses. We got two goals from them yesteryda, not solely but in part due to Given's weakness in that area.

World class shot stopper, unreal. However other aspects of his game are lacking.

He is below the top level of Reina, Cech and VDS. Almunia also is pushing to be in that level, pushing hard and maybe deserves inclusion.

1mcampo1

PHB wrote: »

lol and lol.
Almunia also is pushing to be in that level, pushing hard and maybe deserves inclusion.

Almunia is shocking... I'd put Friedel Schwarzer and Howard ahead of him

8-10

kenon wrote: »

But what does that change? Different shots? Smarter players?

He's an international goalkeeper. I understand that the champions league is the "elite" league but I just dont see what changes for a goalkeeper who is experienced in the Premier League and international level.

I hear the new ball moves more in the air.

Here has anyone any experience watching Guillermo Ochoa? He's constantly called the next big thing but apart from a load of flashy youtube vids I've never watched him. Any good?

dfx-

There are days when Casillas is phenomenal..and days where he's shockingly bad. Away to Barcelona and home to them last season respectively a case in point.

Astonishingly good at the Nou Camp(yet again), poor and almost disinterested at the Bernabeu.

rossie1977

aidan24326 wrote: »

So it's difficult to compare with the likes of Cech who has had top class defenders in front of him. How Given must have wished for a John Terry or a Jamie Carragher.

It's a little easier to organise the defence in front of you when said defence is actually any good. I dare say it's not hard to organise Terry and Carvalho or Ferdinand and Vidic.

did you see ferdinand and carragher this weekend

as others have said, given is a great shot-stopper but he is stuck to his line, yday he should have come and claimed that cross that lead to utds 2nd goal, vds, cech and reina would have and took out everything with them, given stayed on his line and paid the price

mayordenis

I was absolutely slated a few months for saying he was arguably the best to play in the PL ever.

8-10

mayordenis wrote: »

I was absolutely slated a few months for saying he was arguably the best to play in the PL ever.

The best keeper or player? Regardless, he's neither.

Mr Alan

mayordenis wrote: »

I was absolutely slated a few months for saying he was arguably the best to play in the PL ever.

and you should be slated again! :eek:

1)he ain't even the best now!

2)Schmeichel?!

event

CHD wrote: »

Whats wrong with wanting to play every game for your country? Not everything Keane says is gospel.

because its at a detriment to our other keepers

why do you think dean kiely retired again?

because promises that he would be played in friendlies were not kept, because given insisted he plays.

what happens if he gets injured before the italy game?

it means we have kieren westwood, a player with just 45 minutes under his belt. it means we have a keeper who has never played with our frist choice back four.

this comes down to givens insistence that he play every game. I undertsand he wants to play, but it stops our other keepers from getting experience

Bubs101

event wrote: »

because its at a detriment to our other keepers

why do you think dean kiely retired again?

because promises that he would be played in friendlies were not kept, because given insisted he plays.

what happens if he gets injured before the italy game?

it means we have kieren westwood, a player with just 45 minutes under his belt. it means we have a keeper who has never played with our frist choice back four.

this comes down to givens insistence that he play every game. I undertsand he wants to play, but it stops our other keepers from getting experience

That's the managers fault, not Given's

ANTIFA!

What a load of rubbish. So because he plays in every International Game he possible can this is a negative point? Is this forum insane or something?

Unearthly

ANTIFA! wrote: »

What a load of rubbish. So because he plays in every International Game he possible can this is a negative point? Is this forum insane or something?

probably the same people who bash Stephen Ireland to.

SpAcEd OuT

Jesus lads am I the only person here who watches league outside of the premiership and la liga?????

Buffon is streets ahead of Casillas and Given right now, his perfomances so far have been incredible and put in an amazing performance on the weekend against Livorno. I ask anyone to please google the highlights

kenon

SpAcEd OuT wrote: »

Jesus lads am I the only person here who watches league outside of the premiership and la liga?????

Buffon is streets ahead of Casillas and Given right now, his perfomances so far have been incredible and put in an amazing performance on the weekend against Livorno. I ask anyone to please google the highlights

The livorno highlights are in this thread if you tried reading anything outside the last page.

dyl10

noodler wrote: »

Shame given hasn't had a defence like Liverpool's over the years but I'd say Reina has to be classed slightly higher

Shay is one of the best in the world and could make a good stake to be the best in England.

Just to point out, it's a tougher job being a goalkeeper behind a good defence than a bad defence...

Bubs101

SpAcEd OuT wrote: »

Jesus lads am I the only person here who watches league outside of the premiership and la liga?????

Buffon is streets ahead of Casillas and Given right now, his perfomances so far have been incredible and put in an amazing performance on the weekend against Livorno. I ask anyone to please google the highlights

Buffon has been amazing so far this season. That save against Bulgaria was the highlight but in fairness he wasn't the best keeper in Italy last year

marko91

ANTIFA! wrote: »

What a load of rubbish. So because he plays in every International Game he possible can this is a negative point? Is this forum insane or something?

i agreee...playing every game will do nothing but make you BETTER, oh no thats such a bad thing to alot of yous:rolleyes:...why give crap keepers a few games when the only keeper good enough to be playing every game IS playing every game?

8-10

Has anyone got a link for that save Shay made v Montenegro....quality! The best I've seen live in years.

Pro. F

From reading this thread I'm thinking that trying to rank top quality keepers is pointless.

There are as many different opinion's in this thread as there are posters. There is nothing close to a consensus. Whatever it is about goalies, it seems to me that it is just too easy to criticise them, and nobody can be pointed out as the best keeper in the world, or any particular league (unless it's a very weak league).

Imo you can say a keeper is top quality or not but beyond that I think it becomes a bit arbitrary. By top quality I mean that they wouldn't look out of place if they were in a top European club side.

I would say that Given is a top quality keeper.

Saying that he doesn't come for crosses and dominate the box enough is a reasonable criticism imo, I think that it's not actually a problem because he is consistent but I agree it's a point worth considering. But people who say that he doesn't organise his defence enough are talking nonsense. It's not a keeper's job to organise his defence, that's the manager's job. The keeper needs to let his defence know what he's doing and Given does that fine.

And people saying that it was Given's fault the City defence was so bad yesterday are wrong too imo. United dominated the possession and managed to get in a lot of quality crosses, any team would have suffered from that. Then the City defenders gave United players space in the box, which isn't anything to do with Given. There are a lot of problems that need to be sorted in that City defence before it would be fair to criticise Given.

I said before that I'm unsure about whether Hughes will prove himself good enough at organising the defence for City. I just hope Given is still around by the time that City do get a well organised defence, then he'll have a fair chance to prove himself.