Does Shay Given have a claim

Charlie

PHB wrote: »

lol and lol.

The reason United put in a billion times more crosses than they ever do in the match yesterday? Because Given is, and always has been, terrible at coming for crosses. We got two goals from them yesteryda, not solely but in part due to Given's weakness in that area.

World class shot stopper, unreal. However other aspects of his game are lacking.

He is below the top level of Reina, Cech and VDS. Almunia also is pushing to be in that level, pushing hard and maybe deserves inclusion.

It's hard to take much of that post seriously after putting VDS ahead of Given.

VDS makes more errors in a season, then i've seen Given make in his carear.

laoisforliam

IMO given is very overrated especially by us Irish... Theres a reason why he doesnt play for one of the big four.

He is a great shot stopper no doubt, but its always easy to show your ability as a shot stopper when playing behind a crappy defence,

given has yet to play behind a good defence where a different type of goalkeeping is needed, the type where you are called into action only twice or three times a match and still perform (ben foster showed he is not up to in yesterday).

This is a true test of temperment and concentration that must be mastered to play at the top, the fact that given has never signed for a top team tells me that thay must think that there is something lacking from his game. (terrible on crosses to)

dyl10

Pro. F wrote: »

. But people who say that he doesn't organise his defence enough are talking nonsense. It's not a keeper's job to organise his defence, that's the manager's job. The keeper needs to let his defence know what he's doing and Given does that fine.

I strongly disagree.
A Goalkeeper has to organise his defense for 90 minutes in a match. A manager can give instructions pre match, but in-game, the keeper is the voice at the back and the only player with an unobstructed view of the teams defense.

To say a keeper's job isn't to organise his defense is just ignorant, it's one of his principle jobs.

It's extremely difficult to make a judgment from watching a game on TV as to whether a keeper is doing his off the ball to work, as you can't typically hear players talking/shouting.

At the end of the day, he can't pick up his defenders and move them, all he can do is instruct them. Whether Shay Given was culpable for the positioning of Man City's defenders at the weekend, is anyone's guess excluding people within earshot of the pitch at the weekend.

Quint

Given is a good keeper, but seriously, would anyone rather Given to Buffon in their team?

Crow71

Shay Given is a top keeper, underrated imo because he was playing behind that defence in newcastle. No further proof than his performance against Arsenal in Highbury during 05/06 season. There has been plenty others but that one springs to mind, playing with a defence consistiog of o brien, boumsong and bramble, he frustrated Henry all day with world class saves one after another making up for mistake after mistake. Class act

parker kent

realcam wrote: »

Well, but then how many European goalies do you know? I surely don't know all of them, but I follow the Bundesliga also and I'd rate Adler, Enke & Hildebrandt and possibly the young Schalke guy Neuer equally good if not better (overall package).

For all I know there could be dozens of French, Russian (Akinfeev ain't bad for starters) and whatnot goalies that are excellent but we don't see them every week.

We all are biased towards what we know and admire. Very easy to fall into the trap of overrating.

Of that set I only know Hildebrand who I think is not a top level goalie. Too many handling errors for my liking. Whenever I have seen him, he has not given the impression of being as safe as a top goalie should be.

You said earlier that Given could not be rated as a top goalie because he hadn't played in the Champions League (which he had btw) so how can keepers from the Bundesliga without top level European football be considered better if that is your method?

Plus surely Given's performances in the World Cup and consistently in international football count for something? I feel too many people in Ireland decide not to rate Irish players simply because they are Irish. This may not be true for you personally but it is common enough.

flahavaj

mayordenis wrote: »

I was absolutely slated a few months for saying he was arguably the best to play in the PL ever.

LOL, still sounds equally ridiculous when you say it now a few months later.;)

dyl10

Crow71 wrote: »

underrated imo because he was playing behind that defence in newcastleThere has been plenty others but that one springs to mind,

Crow71 wrote: »

playing with a defence consistiog of o brien, boumsong and bramble, he frustrated Henry all day with world class saves one after another making up for mistake after mistake. Class act

As has been said several times already, it's playing behind crap defences that can lead to goal keepers looking better than they are.

A goalkeeper playing behind a top team(in any league, at any age group), will generally only be called into action a couple of times a game. There job is to stay concentrated, organise and do what little they have to do properly when called into action.

A keeper playing behind a bad defence can make, as you put it, "world class save one after another making up for mistake after mistake".

noodler

flahavaj wrote: »

LOL, still sounds equally ridiculous when you say it now a few months later.;)

No idea why, he has been one ofthe best keepers in the league during his long career i.e. almost since the prem began.

noodler

dyl10 wrote: »

As has been said several times already, it's playing behind crap defences that can lead to goal keepers looking better than they are.

A goalkeeper playing behind a top team(in any league, at any age group), will generally only be called into action a couple of times a game. There job is to stay concentrated, organise and do what little they have to do properly when called into action.

A keeper playing behind a bad defence can make, as you put it, "world class save one after another making up for mistake after mistake".

You say that bit about crap defences like its fact. He looked pretty good for Ireland for years and, contrary to popular belief, we don't actually conced 5 everytime we play.

Looked pretty good for City in their opening three games with clean sheets too. Looked excellent against Utd too.

Actually, he seems to look good no matter what the circumstance - OH OH! Running out of excuses now!

Mr.Nice Guy

dyl10 wrote: »

As has been said several times already, it's playing behind crap defences that can lead to goal keepers looking better than they are.

A goalkeeper playing behind a top team(in any league, at any age group), will generally only be called into action a couple of times a game. There job is to stay concentrated, organise and do what little they have to do properly when called into action.

A keeper playing behind a bad defence can make, as you put it, "world class save one after another making up for mistake after mistake".

I think this is a really weak argument. Using this logic why then wasn't Scott Carson hailed as one of the best goalkeepers last season? During Van Der Sar's clean sheet run, according to Opta Stats only Carson had to face more shots than Shay did out of the keepers in the league. Likewise how come Paul Robinson doesn't get praised? He plays in front of a crap defence. Bottom line is these guys just aren't top class that's why.

Also, ridiculing the idea of a keeper who was named in the PFA Team of the Year on two occasions being potentially the best the Premier League has seen, is mystifying.

Crow71

dyl10 wrote: »

As has been said several times already, it's playing behind crap defences that can lead to goal keepers looking better than they are.

A goalkeeper playing behind a top team(in any league, at any age group), will generally only be called into action a couple of times a game. There job is to stay concentrated, organise and do what little they have to do properly when called into action.

A keeper playing behind a bad defence can make, as you put it, "world class save one after another making up for mistake after mistake".

Ya thats a good point, I would love to see how casillias or buffon would get on playing with a crap defence though

flahavaj

Crow71 wrote: »

Ya thats a good point, I would love to see how casillias or buffon would get on playing with a crap defence though

Casillas has played large chunks of his career with crap defences in front of him to be fair.:pac:

Crow71

flahavaj wrote: »

Casillas has played large chunks of his career with crap defences in front of him to be fair.:pac:

Hes never had Titus Bramble in front of him though

flahavaj

noodler wrote: »

No idea why, he has been one ofthe best keepers in the league during his long career i.e. almost since the prem began.

Amongst the keeprs currently in the Prem hes at a level below the really top guys. Calling him the best EVER in the Prem is a bit of a stretch.

flahavaj

Crow71 wrote: »

Hes never had Titus Bramble in front of him though

Hes had Raul Bravo though.:pac:

Crow71

flahavaj wrote: »

Hes had Raul Bravo though.:pac:

Fair enough, lol

flahavaj

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I think this is a really weak argument. Using this logic why then wasn't Scott Carson hailed as one of the best goalkeepers last season? During Van Der Sar's clean sheet run, according to Opta Stats only Carson had to face more shots than Shay did out of the keepers in the league. Likewise how come Paul Robinson doesn't get praised? He plays in front of a crap defence. Bottom line is these guys just aren't top class that's why.

Also, ridiculing the idea of a keeper who was named in the PFA Team of the Year on two occasions being potentially the best the Premier League has seen, is mystifying.

The crowd that named Giggs Player of the Year?:pac:

Basing an argument on end of season awards isn't really a good idea to be honest.

dyl10

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Also, ridiculing the idea of a keeper who was named in the PFA Team of the Year on two occasions being potentially the best the Premier League has seen, is mystifying.

noodler wrote: »

You say that bit about crap defences like its fact.

Actually, he seems to look good no matter what the circumstance - OH OH! Running out of excuses now!

What are you two on about?
Excuses for what? :rolleyes:
Who's ridiculing who?
Check the link below please.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62207714&postcount=97

I was explaining to someone how the argument that Shay is a better keeper because he's played well behind a bad defence is flawed.

And, "that bit about crap defences" is largely considered as fact.

Mr.Nice Guy

dyl10 wrote: »

What are you two on about?
Excuses for what? :rolleyes:
Who's ridiculing who?
Check the link below please.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62207714&postcount=97

I was explaining to someone how the argument that Shay is a better keeper because he's played well behind a bad defence is flawed.

And, "that bit about crap defences" is largely considered as fact.

It seemed to me like you were saying he is only considered so good because he plays in front of a crap defence. If I've misinterpreted that then I apologise.

flahavaj wrote:

The crowd that named Giggs Player of the Year?:pac:

Basing an argument on end of season awards isn't really a good idea to be honest.

To be fair the Giggs award was a sentimental one-off. The fact Given is so highly rated by his peers I would say proves he's a modern great.

CHD

event wrote: »

because its at a detriment to our other keepers

why do you think dean kiely retired again?

because promises that he would be played in friendlies were not kept, because given insisted he plays.

what happens if he gets injured before the italy game?

it means we have kieren westwood, a player with just 45 minutes under his belt. it means we have a keeper who has never played with our frist choice back four.

this comes down to givens insistence that he play every game. I undertsand he wants to play, but it stops our other keepers from getting experience

LOL

Yeah, Given picks the team.

Pro. F

dyl10 wrote: »

I strongly disagree.
A Goalkeeper has to organise his defense for 90 minutes in a match. A manager can give instructions pre match, but in-game, the keeper is the voice at the back and the only player with an unobstructed view of the teams defense.

To say a keeper's job isn't to organise his defense is just ignorant, it's one of his principle jobs.

It's extremely difficult to make a judgment from watching a game on TV as to whether a keeper is doing his off the ball to work, as you can't typically hear players talking/shouting.

At the end of the day, he can't pick up his defenders and move them, all he can do is instruct them.

A manager can and should do a lot more than give pre-match instructions. A manager spends months with his team working on defending and teaching defenders what positions to take up, what to do and even where to look in each common situation.

I think you're overestimating the amount of instruction and organisational responsibility a keeper can actually effect. I do agree that keepers need to talk to their defenders alot, to let them know what's going on and let them know if the keeper is coming for the ball (things like: ''man on'', ''time'', ''keeper's ball'', ''push out'' etc), occasionally make the decision for the defender (like telling them to clear the ball when they might be thinking about playing it) and give out to the them if they're not doing their jobs properly. But when the opposition are building an attack and the CBs are taking up their positions and the midfielders are tracking their counterparts' runs the keeper telling them all what to do and where to go isn't going to get the right decisions made.

If centre backs are allowing the opposition players to get free headers from crosses, or midfielders aren't tracking runs, or fullbacks are letting the ball be run into the box you can't blame that on the keeper not giving enough instruction as the play developes. Defenders, in an organised defence, are drilled with clear positional instructions for all the common scenarios they might find themselves in. Good defenders carry out those instructions reliably.

A good keeper is reliable, consistent, communicates what he's doing and doesn't give his defenders the jitters by being in two minds. When a keeper is like that then if the defence is still badly organised, you have to look at the manager and the ability of the defenders.

event

CHD wrote: »

LOL

Yeah, Given picks the team.

i dont know why people are so suprised about this, its pretty much well known

it was mainly under kerr and staunton, who didnt have the balls to stand up to him. They would ask the players do you mind if i give such and such a run in the next friendly, Given always says that no, he wants to play.
So the manager pleases one of his best players.
We havent had a manager with the balls to drop him, and still dont.

im not slating him as a player at all, i think he's fantastic. Not as good as soom others think but one of the best in the PL. but this insistence in playing every game is harming our other keepers chances, like it or not.

dyl10

Pro. F wrote: »

If centre backs are allowing the opposition players to get free headers from crosses, or midfielders aren't tracking runs, or fullbacks are letting the ball be run into the box you can't blame that on the keeper

Nor can you blame it on the manager.
Unless the team are running some zonal defence system(Another debate), all the above leaves the blame with the defender himself.
None of the above should be happening at any level of football.

Pro. F

dyl10 wrote: »

Nor can you blame it on the manager.
Unless the team are running some zonal defence system(Another debate), all the above leaves the blame with the defender himself.
None of the above should be happening at any level of football.

Cool, we agree then, criticism of Given for the disorganised defence in front of him isn't justified.

And on the zonal defence thing, all teams use zonal in open play these days as far as i'm aware.