Jamarcus Russel

D3PO

Max Power1 wrote: »

its all the guaranteed money , and this would all count against the cap in the year after he was cut. I dont think the raiders are close to the cap yhough I could be wrong

next year could be uncapped. if your going to dump him now is the time

The Munky

D3PO wrote: »

This QB draft class coming isnt even close to that of Eli, Rivers and Big Ben from 6 years ago

How can you say that?

hindsight is a great addition to knowledge and useless statements.... You have no idea how these guys are gonna perform if they make the NFL, they could infact be better - I doubt it myself but I won't be daft enough to make a completely unfounded statement such as that...

Max Power1

ReacherCreature wrote: »

I reckon Raiders should hod on to him for the season at least unless any backups or free agents come in, already know the system and can contribute to the organisation. Which sounds easier said than done imo. You also wouldn't have to pay him as much as he'll have one more season under his belt. Russell might scrape out a couple of wins yet. :pac:

id sooner play charlie frye (do we still have him?) then play russell for another week

Max Power1

The Munky wrote: »

How can you say that?

hindsight is a great addition to knowledge and useless statements.... You have no idea how these guys are gonna perform if they make the NFL, they could infact be better - I doubt it myself but I won't be daft enough to make a completely unfounded statement such as that...

Its true though

All the 3 QBS mentioned are perennial pro bowl candidates. Maybe McCoy/CLausen could make it to that level but the odds of 4 or 5 doing so is low.

The Munky

Max Power1 wrote: »

Its true though

All the 3 QBS mentioned are perennial pro bowl candidates. Maybe McCoy/CLausen could make it to that level but the odds of 4 or 5 doing so is low.

Yeah but they are 6 years in the league - give these guys a chance to perform before saying they aren't of the quality of the afore-mentioned? agreed no?

ReacherCreature

Max Power1 wrote: »

id sooner play charlie frye (do we still have him?) then play russell for another week

Just checked it up, Frye & Gradkowski backing up Russell.

eagle eye

D3PO wrote: »

This QB draft class coming isnt even close to that of Eli, Rivers and Big Ben from 6 years ago

Four starters and a big failure out of that one. I don't agree, maybe in hindsight as things stand with two of them having rings, but this class if Clausen comes out as well is a very, very strong class.
Lots of people don't agree with me regarding Tebow, I say he will be a superstar.
I also think Clausen will be huge in the NFL, and Bradford too. I'm not gone on McCoy but there is loads to like about him. Snead has all the looks of a conventional NFL QB and Jake Locker is another guy who could be huge in the NFL.

I think its the best class since the infamous '83 one.

ReacherCreature

eagle eye wrote: »

I think its the best class since the infamous '83 one.

That's a huge statement :eek:

Looking forward to see what the experts have to say come Draft time.

heyjude

Max Power1 wrote: »

its all the guaranteed money , and this would all count against the cap in the year after he was cut. I dont think the raiders are close to the cap yhough I could be wrong

Wrong on both counts, he is in the third year of a six year contract worth $61m with $32m of that guaranteed.(see http://www.rotoworld.com/Content/playerpages/player_contract.aspx?sport=NFl&id=4154 ) Also AFAIK if a player is on the roster for week one, then his salary is guaranteed for the season. The Raiders are always one of the top spenders and so never have too much cap room to spare .

D3PO wrote: »

next year could be uncapped. if your going to dump him now is the time

If next year is uncapped, then surely cutting him early next year is the obvious thing to do, if you cut him now you would accelerate all his guaranteed money into this year(and his six base salaries are guaranteed) and then you'd have to make other cuts to stay within the cap. If next year is uncapped, then cutting him would obviously have no cap implications except for the cost of paying an unproductive former player.

In any case, Al Davis is notoriously stubborn, Russell is Al's pick and he'd be convinced(though I doubt anyone else would), that if he released Russell then somebody else would snap him up and Russell would become a star elsewhere ! Personally I don't see Russell turning it around, but the management and bad luck haven't exactly helped him, Javon Walker, their only experienced receiver was injured going into the season(now he's fit and Cable won't seem to use him), Chaz Schillens, the 2nd year receiver that looked good in pre-season and the end of last season broke his leg in preseason and is still a week or two from fitness and without them, the wide receiver corp consisted of rookies Darrius Heyward Bey, Louis Murphy, Todd Watkins(a 3rd year player without a reception before this season) and Johnny Lee Higgins(just 5 starts and just 28 catches in his career). So 4 receivers boasting 28 NFL catches between them ! Poor route running and dropped catches have made Russell worse, maybe we'll see if it improves when Schillens returns. Problem is Davis will want Heyward Bey in the starting lineup, so even though Schillens, Walker, Murphy and maybe Higgins are better receivers, Cable won't have much choice. The question is whether Cable or Russell will survive longer, if Cable is jailed or suspended by the NFL then it may give Davis the opportunity to replace him, but which serious coach would want to takeover a team, where the owner dictates the starting QB, starting HB, offensive strategy(vertical game - he hates the west coast offence),the defensive formation and strategy(4-3 man coverage bump and run).

As for claims that they need to ditch Russell and pick one of the top QB prospects in the NFL draft, its worth remembering that the draft is a crapshoot, Russell and Brady Quinn were by far the top two QB prospects going into the 2007 draft and neither has turned into a star, while Al Davis still grates about the team drafting Michael Huff in 2006 when apparently he wanted to pick Matt Leinart(the college star QB drafted in the first round by Arizona and now backing up 38 year old Kurt Warner !) The difference is that while Arizona decided to play the better QB, Davis will play whoever earns the most.

Max Power1

heyjude wrote: »

Wrong on both counts, he is in the third year of a six year contract worth $61m with $32m of that guaranteed.(see http://www.rotoworld.com/Content/playerpages/player_contract.aspx?sport=NFl&id=4154 ) Also AFAIK if a player is on the roster for week one, then his salary is guaranteed for the season. The Raiders are always one of the top spenders and so never have too much cap room to spare .

Ok i always presumed it was similar to if a player was traded. Obviously not. Yes once a player is on the roster for week one then the salary is guaranteed for the year.

heyjude wrote:

If next year is uncapped, then surely cutting him early next year is the obvious thing to do, if you cut him now you would accelerate all his guaranteed money into this year(and his six base salaries are guaranteed) and then you'd have to make other cuts to stay within the cap. If next year is uncapped, then cutting him would obviously have no cap implications except for the cost of paying an unproductive former player.

Obviously that would be the best outcome, and certainly one that would make the most sense. However the year may not be uncapped if a new CBA is agreed in time.

heyjude wrote:

In any case, Al Davis is notoriously stubborn, Russell is Al's pick and he'd be convinced(though I doubt anyone else would), that if he released Russell then somebody else would snap him up and Russell would become a star elsewhere !

We all know how il-logical Al Davis can be at the best of times. But even he must have a point where he realises that a QB with a sub 40% completion rate in the make or break 3rd year in the league isnt going to cut it!

heyjude wrote:

Personally I don't see Russell turning it around, but the management and bad luck haven't exactly helped him, Javon Walker, their only experienced receiver was injured going into the season(now he's fit and Cable won't seem to use him), Chaz Schillens, the 2nd year receiver that looked good in pre-season and the end of last season broke his leg in preseason and is still a week or two from fitness and without them, the wide receiver corp consisted of rookies Darrius Heyward Bey, Louis Murphy, Todd Watkins(a 3rd year player without a reception before this season) and Johnny Lee Higgins(just 5 starts and just 28 catches in his career). So 4 receivers boasting 28 NFL catches between them ! Poor route running and dropped catches have made Russell worse, maybe we'll see if it improves when Schillens returns. Problem is Davis will want Heyward Bey in the starting lineup, so even though Schillens, Walker, Murphy and maybe Higgins are better receivers, Cable won't have much choice. The question is whether Cable or Russell will survive longer, if Cable is jailed or suspended by the NFL then it may give Davis the opportunity to replace him, but which serious coach would want to takeover a team, where the owner dictates the starting QB, starting HB, offensive strategy(vertical game - he hates the west coast offence),the defensive formation and strategy(4-3 man coverage bump and run).

As for claims that they need to ditch Russell and pick one of the top QB prospects in the NFL draft, its worth remembering that the draft is a crapshoot, Russell and Brady Quinn were by far the top two QB prospects going into the 2007 draft and neither has turned into a star, while Al Davis still grates about the team drafting Michael Huff in 2006 when apparently he wanted to pick Matt Leinart(the college star QB drafted in the first round by Arizona and now backing up 38 year old Kurt Warner !) The difference is that while Arizona decided to play the better QB, Davis will play whoever earns the most.

We can make whatever excuses we want but the bottom line is he hasnt shown the ability, or more worryingly, the attitude, needed to be a good (hell even an average) QB in the NFL. I'd take the likes of Smith/Leinart over Russell anyday.

tallaghtoutlaws

Let me ask Raiders fans this. Im not a big fan of Russell but ask yourself this:

Do you think right now bringing in another QB is your answer? Seriously?

Right now the team is a train wreck and if it were not for the Defense would be disastor of massive proportions. I do agree Russell isnt helping at all but Im just not convinced enough to use him as a scapegoat. Alot of evidence including Garcia have pointed towards lack of harmony and the want to win. The paycheck thing has come up so many times and Garcia wasnt the first to say it.

I just think until Davis stops medaling with the team like the coach he wants to be the Raiders are doomed to the same old same old. To be honest I dont think Colt McCoy or Tim Tebow or any future QB will be your answer.

What is needed:

- Al Davis to be an onwer and just that.
- A better Head Coach. Sure Cable licks Davis a$$ but is not a head coach
- And a QB with experience who can rally the troops under a new system Davis free.

Raiders fans seem to want a quick fix right now and sadly i dont think a quick fix is the answer. Maybe im wrong. But it is my opinion.

LuckyLloyd

Hey heyjude, great post!

davyjose wrote: »

For someone relatively new to the game, when did Al Davis become such a bad owner? He has 3 rings, and was in the Super Bowl 6 years ago (when the Raiders were consistently AFC West Champs). What the hell happened them?

He has been an ever more horrendous owner since he became obsessed with acquiring (either through the draft or FA) players with huge, ridiculous measurables (size, strength, speed) in ignorance of their less than stellar all round performances on the football field. He's all about having these magnificent athletes on the roster - and displays little or no interest in building strong foundations either in terms of cohesion of characters in the dressing room or consistency of coaching staff.

D3PO

The Munky wrote: »

How can you say that?

hindsight is a great addition to knowledge and useless statements.... You have no idea how these guys are gonna perform if they make the NFL, they could infact be better - I doubt it myself but I won't be daft enough to make a completely unfounded statement such as that...

ok so when next years draft QB class win 3 rings between them in their first 6 years I will retract my statement.

its not fact but its a pretty good view that these guys wont compete at that level, besides theres a lot of hype over some of those QB's who really arent suited to the NFL in my opinion.

There is hype every year in fairness.

Hype over Leinhart - not made it

Hype over quinn and russell - not made it

Hype over Smith - not made it

granted last year was a good one with Ryan and Flacco & this year could be similar with Stafford & Sanchez (and admittededly I thought Sanchez was overhyped and that Pat white was better suited to the NFL)

so i could be wrong but I dont think next years class will be amazing but then thats just my opinion.

ReacherCreature

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

What is needed:

- Al Davis to be an onwer and just that.
- A better Head Coach. Sure Cable licks Davis a$$ but is not a head coach
- And a QB with experience who can rally the troops under a new system Davis free.

Good point but say, hypothically, it's implemented will Davis actually agree on that? I highly doubt it knowing him.

tallaghtoutlaws

ReacherCreature wrote: »

Good point but say, hypothically, it's implemented will Davis actually agree on that? I highly doubt it knowing him.

Well if he doesn't the Shambles that is the Raiders will continue on until he dies.

ReacherCreature

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

Well if he doesn't the Shambles that is the Raiders will continue on until he dies.

...which I reckon is never. Al Davis will probably buy another shot at life.

TheHeadhunter

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

Do you think right now bringing in another QB is your answer? Seriously?

In short, Yes.

tallaghtoutlaws

TheHeadhunter wrote: »

In short, Yes.

Good to see you elaborated on it? I was merely looking for a discussional point of view:

Why I dont think short term will not make a difference:

- The new QB will have to get to know the current system and playbook midseason

- He wont be in sync with his WR

- He wont get alot of protection

- And I see the Raiders failures as a team thing and not just JMR. You cant completely blame him for the demise of the Raiders when in truth they havent had a winning season since 2002.

2003 2003 NFL AFC West 3rd 4 12 0
2004 2004 NFL AFC West 4th 5 11 0
2005 2005 NFL AFC West 4th 4 12 0
2006 2006 NFL AFC West 4th 2 14 0
2007 2007 NFL AFC West 4th 4 12 0
2008 2008 NFL AFC West 3rd 5 11 0

So blaming it all on JMR right now is redonculous and whatever QB comes in in truth wont do much better. What weapons will he have that will make it any different than JMR now?

The sad thing is any other team who have been choking over the span of 6 years will admit their faults but it some Raiders fans are as dilusional as Al Davis in a bad way. Sure every team has idiot dilusional fans take the Pats we have many clowns that are so far up the Pats ass and cant see the faults its no longer funny. But pretending the Organisation hasnt got a problem in Oakland is insane.

davyjose

D3PO wrote: »

This QB draft class coming isnt even close to that of Eli, Rivers and Big Ben from 6 years ago

I think that we're looking at the best bunch of college QB's in a long, long time. Whether they'll be as good in the nfl as those three remains to be seen. They've set high standards. But in terms of their college careers, they ain't as good as 2009 IMO

TheHeadhunter

Sorry tallaght didnt mean to seem rude.

I dont think he has what it takes to be honest and with him under centre i dont see us winning many games at all.

He hasnt shown any significant progress at all, infact if anything he has regressed even with Paul Hackett as his QB coach.

He is extremely lazy with stories surfacing that he regularly misses meetings and late to practices this is not acceptable from a 10 year vet let alone a guy who is struggling to live up to his status as a #1 overall draft pick.

The QB has to be the leader of any organisastion and he hasnt shown anything to that effect, (Greg Ellis was trying to get the offense fired up on the sidelines last sunday!)

The rest of the team aren't stupid and im quite sure they feel he is holding this team back.

I would hand it over to Gradkowski after week 6 or 7 if OffTheMarcus hasnt improved by then. Gradkowski isn't ideal at all but i genuinely believe he gives us a better chance to win than russell and would only serve as a stop gap until the summers free agency where we could look to a veteran QB (not a 39 year old ie: jeff garcia). Or address the position in the draft ideally in the 1st round but wont happen.

heyjude

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

Let me ask Raiders fans this. Im not a big fan of Russell but ask yourself this:

Do you think right now bringing in another QB is your answer? Seriously?..........................


Raiders fans seem to want a quick fix right now and sadly i dont think a quick fix is the answer. Maybe im wrong. But it is my opinion.

I'd love a quick fix, but Russell isn't the answer for many of the reasons mentioned by other posters here. I don't see them drafting another QB in the first round, so I think they should try a higher percentage approach, look at the Vikings and Giants, these teams could maybe win even with Russell as their QB because they have great Offensive and Defensive lines and with these areas set, its much easier to find the pieces to build dominating defences/offences. With a powerful offensive line, you only need your QB not to lose the game, as you can pound the ball and only ask your QB to complete high % passes, while a dominant defensive line means running backs get tackled in the backfield and opposing QBs get sacked and hurried without the need to blitz, so you've less need for top cover cornerbacks. I think the Raiders need a solid experienced QB for the next few years, while they draft heavily on their two lines. It wouldn't be the high octane way to go, but trying to draft a stud QB and RB doesn't seem to have worked either.

D3PO

davyjose wrote: »

I think that we're looking at the best bunch of college QB's in a long, long time. Whether they'll be as good in the nfl as those three remains to be seen. They've set high standards. But in terms of their college careers, they ain't as good as 2009 IMO

True but a good college qb doenst make a good NFL qb by default. And a QB that wasnt successful or playing for a big school in college isnt definatly going to fail in the NFL

Look at Matt Cassell never started a game in college ever hes done pretty well.

Flacco didnt even get a scholarship offer in any of the Div 1A schools at all. Hes been pretty good

Big Ben didnt play at a BCS school

etc etc

Being good and playing for a top college program means nothing when it comes to the NFL.

Karlusss

heyjude wrote: »

With a powerful offensive line, you only need your QB not to lose the game, as you can pound the ball and only ask your QB to complete high % passes

That only gets you so far though. The Vikings have had a dominant run game for several seasons but they've still been falling all over themselves to get a quarterback who can either get the 8th guy out of the box or punish them for keeping him in.

The Cowboys have one of the best run-games in the league, three different guys who can put up 100 yards if they need to, and they didn't make the playoffs last year. And their quarterback is a lot better than JaMarcus.

With the Raiders though, I agree, a quarterback immediately isn't the answer. Not quite sure what the answer is.The Rams suck, but at least you can see where they're going, as of last season. With the Raiders, it's way too haphazard to guess.

tallaghtoutlaws

heyjude wrote: »

I'd love a quick fix, but Russell isn't the answer for many of the reasons mentioned by other posters here. I don't see them drafting another QB in the first round, so I think they should try a higher percentage approach, look at the Vikings and Giants, these teams could maybe win even with Russell as their QB because they have great Offensive and Defensive lines and with these areas set, its much easier to find the pieces to build dominating defences/offences. With a powerful offensive line, you only need your QB not to lose the game, as you can pound the ball and only ask your QB to complete high % passes, while a dominant defensive line means running backs get tackled in the backfield and opposing QBs get sacked and hurried without the need to blitz, so you've less need for top cover cornerbacks. I think the Raiders need a solid experienced QB for the next few years, while they draft heavily on their two lines. It wouldn't be the high octane way to go, but trying to draft a stud QB and RB doesn't seem to have worked either.

See this is what I was looking for someone who sees direction rather than a quick fix because lets be honest there isnt one.

But the problem in the solution do you not think is Al Davis? For me I feel the Raiders will never go down the road of using an Experienced QB and drafting high end linemen both Offensive and Defensive to fix the hole. Right now you have competent running backs, linebackers and secondary and in fact the WR if given the right direction have the ability. But all of this needs protection from a young solidly built oline taken in the drafts rather than taking the common Al Davis choice athletes year after year.

But building stability and protection I feel is smeared by Al Davis who will most likely continue to interfere and draft the athlete type WR and QB's and ignore Linemen as usual in the top grade.

Trampas

4/8 42yards in 1st half against Giants.

At least his completion rate is up :rolleyes:

tallaghtoutlaws

Trampas wrote: »

4/8 42yards in 1st half against Giants.

At least his completion rate is up :rolleyes:

Dont forget his 3 fumbles :D:D

Its So Easy

I think Charles Barkley sums it up right.

TheHeadhunter

Chucky the tree

I see he's now admitted he was fined for being overweight.

ReacherCreature

The fact that there's information being leaked about him not showing up for practice and being fined for being overweight is really not helping people who are trying to defend him somehow. Including myself.