National Postcodes to be introduced

redalicat

baalthor wrote: »

A US poster (Overheal I think) posted on this a few months ago: basically no-one in the US uses ZIP+4

Businesses in the US do, as did OCD people (like me:D). The Pitney Bowes system I worked when I lived there automatically inserted the +4 code on our business mailing list. In my experience, about 5% of my handwritten personal mail received from friends/family also had the +4 code. There was talk right before I moved to Ireland a few years back that the +4 would become mandatory in the US, but it would be fair to say that the general populous at that time didn't use the code or even notice it.

FWIW, it seemed to me that if I used the code, a piece of mail going across country got there quicker than if not. Not very scientific, I know.

GoCoder

recedite wrote: »

Loc8 Codes are Grid Coordinates - just in a form which people with no expertise can use without making a mistake and without being mistaken for something else

What are GoCodes?

Is the GoCode: 2222222 a phone number, a grid reference or something a ballet dancer wears?

Yes - we've heard that one before. :rolleyes:
I think you'll find that GO:222 2222 is not assigned to a building. It's in the middle of the sea. And you wouldn't be able to assign it to anything anyway, because of the way we've set up the system. Nor would you be able to use GO:969 6969 either in case you want to suggest that.

GO Codes are grid co-ordinates, and there is a checking system within it, built into the database. Also, if you have GO: in front of it as a standard prefix, which is what we're doing, then you shouldn't have any problem knowing what it is.

That's why having an open database system creates its own flaws and problems.

But since you're already a promoter of the Loc8 solution, I'm unlikely to change your mind, so all I can tell you is, GO use it.

mackerski

GoCoder wrote: »

Do I understand from this Mackerski that you would want GO Code to be usable by providers of mapping and location-aware tools and that it would be provided to them free of charge, and you'd want a free database as well?

Or could you clarify?

It is not for me to tell a commercial undertaking what they should do with the fruits of their labour. What I'm saying is that if a location (or post, go, loc8, whatever) code is to become a ubiquitous way of referring to one's location, that it is in the interest of users of the codes to have the ability to use the codes in an unproblematic way.

Today my address is made up of a number of elements:

A number, which is displayed on my door and which I am free to share with anybody I choose. Anybody wishing to create a map, navigation application or geographic database is free to walk up to my front door and, notwithstanding that he may not know who lives there, to record its location

I also have a street name, which is free to use in all of the foregoing ways.

Likewise my postal town.

Likewise my county

Likewise the fact that all of the above are in Ireland.

My front door also has a latitude and longitude which can also be cleanly derived by me or anybody else and used for any purpose whatsoever without payment.

Or I could use Irish Grid references, which some people have suggested may in fact be encumbered in some way due to OSI creation of the grid system. But hey, nobody was going to use that anyway, right?


But so far, my address can be easily interpreted by anybody with enough map or other geographic data to do so. I could do it with the aid of paid proprietary data like Geodirectory or the OSI Dublin Street guide, and I might pay a price to do so. I could chance my arm and hope that Google Maps would resolve it correctly. That wouldn't cost me anything directly, but Google have found ways to make money from my use of their service, more luck to them.

I can also use OpenStreetMap, a fine resource that delivers value to users by recording the addressing information above in useful ways. Due to the fact that all of the address data I mention above is public property, OSM can readily (effort required) record it and support geocoding, routing and other applications. This is a Good Thing (tm). And when postcodes (or other ubiquitous location codes) emerge, OSM will need to have those too in order to deliver value to users who have discovered the value in location codes. Indeed, it would be silly for OSM not to be able to use a ubiquitous code, what with the definition of "ubiquitous" and everything.

By now, anybody who thinks it's reasonable to control bulk use of ubiquitous location codes will see a snag. You have two goals (each valid and useful) coming directly into conflict. If a particular type of code is declared by its creators to be a copyright work or similarly protected, then open-data systems cannot use them in what I call the "sane" fashion. A sane way to use an algorithmically-defined code would be to use the algorithm. If you can't, you have to do what FreeThePostcode does in the UK - spend needless effort recreating cleanly something that already exists. Because a national resource like a postcode database is important enough to go to such effort.

So as to whether Go-codes should be opened up for such liberal use at no cost? Only if you want it to be the national standard co-ordinate system that everybody will quote on their address. Otherwise it's much less important.

GoCoder

mackerski wrote: »

It is not for me to tell a commercial undertaking what they should do with the fruits of their labour. What I'm saying is that if a location (or post, go, loc8, whatever) code is to become a ubiquitous way of referring to one's location, that it is in the interest of users of the codes to have the ability to use the codes in an unproblematic way.....

Ok. I understand now what you're saying. Thanks.

recedite

GoCoder wrote: »

I think you'll find that GO:222 2222 is not assigned to a building. It's in the middle of the sea. And you wouldn't be able to assign it to anything anyway, because of the way we've set up the system. Nor would you be able to use GO:969 6969 either in case you want to suggest that.

If 2222222 is in the sea, which it is, then it is assigned to something. I might want to tell someone about my favourite fishing spot.
9696969 is in the sea off Achill Island. 6969696 is on land east of Donegal.
Are you saying I can't use them?

If I was in another country, sending a letter or a parcel to Ireland, and I saw 2222222 or 6969696 or END WRLD written there, I would not recognise that as a postcode. They don't even look like they could be part of the same system. As you say it is necessary to use the prefix Go (which could be mistaken for Co.) But that brings it up to 9 digits.

I already said that the way Loc8 uses letters interspersed with numbers is not the easiest to memorise, but at least they have a consistent format.
And if I put in a letter where a number should be, or vice versa, I get an error message. The Go code website seems to accept any random combination and give a position. Its a nice website but I think the product needs more R&D.

GoCoder

recedite wrote: »

If 2222222 is in the sea, which it is, then it is assigned to something. I might want to tell someone about my favourite fishing spot.
9696969 is in the sea off Achill Island. 6969696 is on land east of Donegal.
Are you saying I can't use them?

If I was in another country, sending a letter or a parcel to Ireland, and I saw 2222222 or 6969696 or END WRLD written there, I would not recognise that as a postcode. They don't even look like they could be part of the same system. As you say it is necessary to use the prefix Go (which could be mistaken for Co.) But that brings it up to 9 digits.

I already said that the way Loc8 uses letters interspersed with numbers is not the easiest to memorise, but at least they have a consistent format.
And if I put in a letter where a number should be, or vice versa, I get an error message. The Go code website seems to accept any random combination and give a position. Its a nice website but I think the product needs more R&D.

So let's see if I've got this right. You want to tell someone your favourite fishing spot which is located only in a specific 4m x5 m point somewhere off the north coast of Ireland in the Atlantic?

Hmmm...Right. Could I suggest you use 2NA HERE instead for your fishing - it's a much better spot. Though you might want to use different bait.

There are some GO Codes which you cannot assign to things in our database, you've picked a couple of them. We've reserved those and some related sequences for other purposes, which I don't want to get into now, but will be part of another specialist product we're currently developing. They are but a very small fraction of the 2 billion codes available so nothing to fret about.

And you wouldn't be using the "examples" you gave as postcodes anyway for delivering a parcel since there isn't a building attached to them as we've already established in earlier posts.

GO is a standardised prefix - very like the good example you gave previously of 08 in mobile numbers. In a lot of circumstances, it will be prefilled in applications, in the new version of website, and other things we are developing. The number of characters in the actual GO code will be 7 or less. That's all you have to remember.

The GO Code site doesn't just any accept any random combination of characters. Certain characters can only be used in certain positions. And it also checks with database with the attached address where it relates to a verified building.

I'm going for my tea now.

Solair

Whatever system is chosen, I just hope they get it launched quickly. This project's already taking FAR too long. We should have had postal codes 30 years ago.

This needs to be launched yesterday!

ForiegnNational

mackerski wrote: »

Today my address is made up of a number of elements:

A number, which is displayed on my door and which I am free to share with anybody I choose. Anybody wishing to create a map, navigation application or geographic database is free to walk up to my front door and, notwithstanding that he may not know who lives there, to record its location

I also have a street name, which is free to use in all of the foregoing ways.

Likewise my postal town.

Likewise my county

Likewise the fact that all of the above are in Ireland.

That is lovely if you live in a named street in a town/village. It is less than ideal if you live in a one-off house (separate argument about the merits of those) on an un-named booreen in the middle of nowhere.

My "Postal Town" is about 6 miles away and in fact is further from my house that the nearest town with a Post Office!

I couldn't care less which system is best, as long as something is eventually put in place.

P.S. I have given up with www.epostcode.ie as these sites are better run than my part time effort

P.P.S. I am having issues with http://www.myloc8ion.com not allowing me to move the pointer around under firefox. Is anybody else having this problem?

mackerski

ForiegnNational wrote: »

That is lovely if you live in a named street in a town/village. It is less than ideal if you live in a one-off house (separate argument about the merits of those) on an un-named booreen in the middle of nowhere.

I never said it was ideal. I'm describing the elements that make up a standard urban postal address today and how each element is free to use for any purpose.

Having lived in a rural area for many years, I'm very familiar with the drawbacks of the townland-with-no-number approach. That said, addresses of that format too are free for reuse, though harder for a surveyor to identify without the participation of the resident or an out of copyright map.

ForiegnNational wrote: »

I couldn't care less which system is best, as long as something is eventually put in place.

Well, something will eventually be put in place, so I can set your mind at rest on that score. Some of us do care about how a postcode system should operate in order to deliver value to its users, so I'm sure you'll excuse us our discussion.

In the meantime, May I offer you the Mack code ABC 123, which you may use as a postcode from today (licence-free, I might add)? You might find it sub-optimal for your intended use, but you did say that a speedy implementation was more useful to you than a quality-driven selection process.

GoCoder

mackerski wrote: »

Well, something will eventually be put in place, so I can set your mind at rest on that score. Some of us do care about how a postcode system should operate in order to deliver value to its users, so I'm sure you'll excuse us our discussion.

In the meantime, May I offer you the Mack code ABC 123, which you may use as a postcode from today (licence-free, I might add)? You might find it sub-optimal for your intended use, but you did say that a speedy implementation was more useful to you than a quality-driven selection process.

Ouch!

mackerski wrote: »

If a particular type of code is declared by its creators to be a copyright work or similarly protected, then open-data systems cannot use them in what I call the "sane" fashion. A sane way to use an algorithmically-defined code would be to use the algorithm. If you can't, you have to do what FreeThePostcode does in the UK - spend needless effort recreating cleanly something that already exists. Because a national resource like a postcode database is important enough to go to such effort.

So as to whether Go-codes should be opened up for such liberal use at no cost? Only if you want it to be the national standard co-ordinate system that everybody will quote on their address. Otherwise it's much less important.

So let's say, Mackerski - hypothetically - that OSM were given a licence to use GO Code algorithm at no cost. What then? How would you want to use it? What else would you need? Would you want to give it to anyone else who wanted it? Do you see this working on a business model level, or just a free-share just cos it would be a Good Thing?

antoinolachtnai

I don't mean to but in on mackerski, but I would presume the answer to this is at

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Legal_FAQ

and the relevant section reads:

"Approach the data owners, explain OSM, and seek written permission to licence their data under our licence or (for the avoidance of doubt) without any restrictions on use at all."

All this is hypothetical of course, but I am not sure how you can hold property rights in an algorithm (which could easily be reverse-engineered).

GoCoder

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

I don't mean to but in on mackerski, but I would presume the answer to this is at

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Legal_FAQ

and the relevant section reads:



All this is hypothetical of course, but I am not sure how you can hold property rights in an algorithm (which could easily be reverse-engineered).

Indeed. And, hypothetically, they could create one of their own. A number of people have already, as Foreign National attests above. This was partly the point of my questions. What's to gain, then?

antoinolachtnai

You mean, what is to gain for gocode by offering or not offering a licence such that OSM could incorporate it?

GoCoder

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

You mean, what is to gain for gocode by offering or not offering a licence such that OSM could incorporate it?

Well both parties actually. Given what you've said previously, what have OSM to gain? Why not do it themselves? What would they gain from getting a licence to incorporate GO Code?

antoinolachtnai

Well, by having the licence, it would mean they would not have to worry about any possibility of them being in breach of Gocodes' rights.

GoCoder

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Well, by having the licence, it would mean they would not have to worry about any possibility of them being in breach of Gocodes' rights.

Ok - I'm obviously not making myself clear.

Forget the licence. What's the gain from incorporating GO Code as opposed to doing it themselves? Go back to the questions I put to Mackerski - who I understand is an OSM proponent.

What then? How would OSM want to use it? What else would they need? Would they want to give it to anyone else who wanted it? Do they see this working on a business model level, or just a free-share just cos it would be a Good Thing?

I realise you can't speak for Mackerski, and you didn't mean to butt in ....

antoinolachtnai

I can't speak for mackerski but my understanding:

GoCoder wrote: »

Ok - I'm obviously not making myself clear.

Genuinely, I'm not sure what you mean. Let me try and answer what I think OSM would think.

Forget the licence. What's the gain from incorporating GO Code as opposed to doing it themselves?

Do you mean 'Why would they use the GO code instead of developing their own code?'

Answer to this might be: They will not develop their own code because it is not part of their mission. They will incorporate a widely used and recognised code code because it is widely used, in the same way they might incorporate a placename or a town name - because it is widely used.

Go back to the questions I put to Mackerski - who I understand is an OSM proponent.

What then? How would OSM want to use it?

They would relicense it to other people who would use it whatever way they wished, subject to the CC-SA licence.They would not be able to give you any reassurances as to how it would be used.

What else would they need?

What else is there?

Would they want to give it to anyone else who wanted it?

Yes, anyone willing to abide by the CC-SA licence.

Do they see this working on a business model level, or just a free-share just cos it would be a Good Thing?

If you mean you are wondering whether they will do some sort of commercial deal with GO Code, then the answer would appear to be 'no'. Because of the licensing situation, OSM just doesn't have the legal capacity to enter that sort of arrangement.

That said, maybe you could come up with some arrangement whereby codes up to a certain resolution are free, and codes of finer resolution would be paid-for (and OSM therefore wouldn't use them).

It might help if you could explain exactly what Go Code's business model is or is intended to be. It may be that OSM simply doesn't fit with the GO Code model, and obviously that is fair enough. (But there will be similar problems trying to get the likes of Navteq and Mapinfo to sign up. These companies are not going to be willing to pay much to license an algorithm for a country the size of Ireland and they will not easily accept restrictions on its use)

mackerski

GoCoder wrote: »

Well both parties actually. Given what you've said previously, what have OSM to gain? Why not do it themselves? What would they gain from getting a licence to incorporate GO Code?

In answer to your earlier question, it is fundamental to OSM that any and all comers can use the data therein for anything at all consistent with the overall OSM licence which today is Creative Commons with attribution and share alike. Put differently, anything that goes in can always be freely used on the same terms as any other part of the map.

As to what there is to gain by supporting any given coding system, there is only precedent (that I know of) for supporting national postcodes. The reason these are desirable is obvious - it allows for useful self-sufficient geocoding of addresses (that is, doing so with reference only to the OSM database). Postcode schemes that are both complex and proprietary (the UK scheme being the obvious example) have been troublesome, giving rise to disruptive projects like FreeThePostcode. Many European countries, and the US if we consider standard 5-digit ZIP, have postcode areas that are chunky enough to map in simpler ways, even if the postcode database is in theory proprietary (in Germany, for instance, postcodes tend to follow Municipal boundaries which are themselves well-marked on the ground).

How to support any given coding scheme in OSM depends on the circumstances. For "coarse" European-style postcode areas you would store an area boundary. Even for UK postcodes you can do the same - the half street that PT1 1AA might refer to is actually a collection of discrete land parcels.

When it's a co-ordinate system that can yield arbitrarily many codes it gets harder. Do you, say, pick a 10m grid and attempt to store the code for each point on it? That seems ugly and what if the house you want is 5m off a reference point and has a code that doesn't obviously relate to those nearby? This is why I said above that an algorithmic code is better handled by application of the algorithm, not by attempting to build a parallel database of all the interesting locations and their codes.

antoinolachtnai

It is worth saying that the UK Postcode, famed for its closed-ness and complexity (though it has many other positive features) is now available under a creative commons compatible licence (see http://www.freepostcodes.org.uk/).

In the light of this, I do not think it would be sustainable to launch a postcode in Ireland which was not largely available under a CC-compatible licence.

jetpack101

I have my Loc8 codes for my business and my home address. I have also set it up for most of my family.

They all think its a load of crap until you go to there address on Loc8code.com then its all "thats brilliant"

As for the postal service, I don't see what any of this has to do with them. You would still put the full address on a letter with the addition of the Loc8 code.

All they have to do is ignore the last bit.

What I'm more interested in is when it will be available for Android phones. Android is one of the fastest growing platforms for mobile devices with almost every company incorporating an Android device in there range.

I myself have the Samsung Galaxy S with Google maps as my satnav. It would be nice to see Loc8 installed on an Android Platform with Google Maps.

The more devices that have it installed the more the government will be forced to use that service.

I can't see what the post code system has to do with the gov anyway. No one can stop me putting a little code on the bottom of all my post. If you don't want to use it then don't. But you can be pretty sure they will when there standing in the middle of nowhere looking for an address and all they have to do is enter a little code to solve there problem.

GoCoder

jetpack101 wrote: »

What I'm more interested in is when it will be available for Android phones. Android is one of the fastest growing platforms for mobile devices with almost every company incorporating an Android device in there range.

I myself have the Samsung Galaxy S with Google maps as my satnav.

The more devices that have it installed the more the government will be forced to use that service.

Jetpack - GO Codes are already available on mobile as well as satnav. Here's some of the mobiles on which our app runs or is currently trialling according to our tech people:

All current Blackberries (Other than Storm I/II) (using Blackberry O/S 4.5 or later);
All current Nokia's Series 40 phones (min. screen size 240 x 320 pixels and support MIDP 2.0 or later);
All current Nokia Series 60 phones (support Symbian 9.0 or later);
All current Samsungs (min. screen size 240 x 320 pixels and support MIDP 2.0 or later);
Samsung Bada
Samsung Galaxy-S Android
iPhone 3GS/4

There'll be further Android handsets added to the list over the next few weeks following testing. They will also be linked to the on-phone maps.

Except for iPhone (which has GO Code on the App Store), you enter www.gocode.ie/app into your phone's web browser and it downloads the app if your phone is compatible.

Comments/queries to feedback@gocode.ie

yuloni

This post has been deleted.

jetpack101

GoCoder wrote: »

Jetpack - GO Codes are already available on mobile as well as satnav. Here's some of the mobiles on which our app runs or is currently trialling according to our tech people:

I searched the Android App's market and can't find any reference's to GO Codes.

Condi wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Like everything else they do!!!!
The first thing they will do id put a committee on it and having 30 people all trying to put there little spin on it will completely kill it.

I feel this is really something we could take out of there hands and force them to go with a set system.

GoCoder

jetpack101 wrote: »

I searched the Android App's market and can't find any reference's to GO Codes.

Jetpack - it's not on Android app market yet. if you read my earlier post again, you'll see the link for your phone's browser that I posted to download app if your Android phone model is compatible.

antoinolachtnai

jetpack101 wrote: »

I feel this is really something we could take out of there hands and force them to go with a set system.

Before making a decision on anything to do with this, it really is important to understand who 'owns' any code and the licensing and intellectual property issues involved. Otherwise a hasty decision could turn out to be very expensive.

D'Peoples Voice

GoCoder wrote: »

Jetpack - it's not on Android app market yet. if you read my earlier post again, you'll see the link for your phone's browser that I posted to download app if your Android phone model is compatible.

I assume then GOCoder that you are still testing the HTC Desire Android phone,
and you will have this application available in the near future.
I have downloaded the Multimap application from RadonSoft for Android, and the one application allows me to choose any of Google Maps, Open StreetMap, OPenCycleMap, OpenSeaMap, OpenOMStreet,
so if i had the ability to search for a postcode, that would be class!:rolleyes:

jetpack101

GoCoder wrote: »

Jetpack - it's not on Android app market yet. if you read my earlier post again, you'll see the link for your phone's browser that I posted to download app if your Android phone model is compatible.

I tried getting into the link www.gocode.ie/app and I get the following message.
"Application can only be accessed from a mobile phone"

I'm using the Samsung Galaxy S

GoCoder

jetpack101 wrote: »

I tried getting into the link www.gocode.ie/app and I get the following message.
"Application can only be accessed from a mobile phone"

I'm using the Samsung Galaxy S

Jetpack - can you PM me on this, as it's not relevant to the Board discussion?

Thanks

jetpack101

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Before making a decision on anything to do with this, it really is important to understand who 'owns' any code and the licensing and intellectual property issues involved. Otherwise a hasty decision could turn out to be very expensive.

I agree ... but on the flip side, we could be going around in circles constantly putting up barriers and the end result is what we have now...... no post code or easy way to navigate to a location.

While I do think that giving the government full access to the code could secure a system, it could be a recipe for disaster. You can be pretty sure that someone somewhere in the government departments will want to put there stamp on it and in the process completely mess up the system.

Its not always a bad thing to keep the government out of the picture. Look at Microsoft. I know it might look like a bad example but the vast majority of us use some form of MS software and thats global.

Also take the forum we are discussing this on. The internet and all it has to offer is a wonderful thing and not a government official in site

There are lots of things we use in our day to day lives that the Government had no hand or part in. I would even go as far to say that the things that work well (or reasonably well) are all the things the government had nothing to do with.

Del2005

jetpack101 wrote: »

Also take the forum we are discussing this on. The internet and all it has to offer is a wonderful thing and not a government official in site

There are lots of things we use in our day to day lives that the Government had no hand or part in. I would even go as far to say that the things that work well (or reasonably well) are all the things the government had nothing to do with.

The US government invented the internet and then let it run free, but now they are trying to take control back.