National Postcodes to be introduced

Bray Head

The cost of eircodes will be trivial. 10 euros per month is about the same as half an hour's labour cost in the industry.

I have no first-hand knowledge of business processes in the smaller end of the delivery industry in Ireland. From what I have read of the industry's outpourings here is my theory:

1) They retain market share by taking business that is too small or too low-margin for bigger players. This is why these firms are low productivity.
2) They rely on drivers' accumulated local knowledge. This is a comparative advantage.
3) Their route selection and sorting processes are rudimentary.

The arrival of eircode won't change 1). It will change 2) as firms (and also workers) will find it far easier to enter markets particularly in rural Ireland with low population density and lots of non-unique addresses.
3) means that eircodes are complementary to bigger firms' existing arrangements. In many cases they will simply have to tweak lines of code. Smaller firms would need a bigger overhaul of systems and processes to make them eircode-compatible. I really doubt that it is the price of the eircode database they are worrying about, rather the cost of making their systems work with it. I think the way eircode is designed makes it slightly more difficult for smaller firms to use it, but not by much. A sequential and/or location-based code would present similar problems if they are not automating route selection and sorting already.

I have no objection to more productive firms gaining market share. This is how prices will fall for users over the long run. Moving from low- to high-productivity economic activity is also how economy-wide real incomes rise over time.

Carawaystick

a65b2cd wrote: »

how they will be 100% ready for the launch in May 2015, etc. etc.

Ah, I thought this was to be going in the spring. Good to see confirmation of slippage...

Sam Russell

Bray Head wrote: »

T A sequential and/or location-based code would present similar problems if they are not automating route selection and sorting already.

I have no objection to more productive firms gaining market share. This is how prices will fall for users over the long run. Moving from low- to high-productivity economic activity is also how economy-wide real incomes rise over time.

A random code, like Eircode can only be used by using a computer based sorting system and cannot use local knowledge. If it is not attractive at present for large companies to compete with small outfits, it will still be uncompetitive for them as sorting will not make the job that much cheaper for them. A more intuitive system, like one based on numeric codes (easier to learn) and order (easier to see patterns) would enhance local knowledge and improve the efficiency of the small trader.

It is the bad design and lack of granularity that is wrong with Eircode. It is basically a bad design.

TheBustedFlush

Sam Russell wrote: »

A random code, like Eircode can only be used by using a computer based sorting system and cannot use local knowledge. If it is not attractive at present for large companies to compete with small outfits, it will still be uncompetitive for them as sorting will not make the job that much cheaper for them. A more intuitive system, like one based on numeric codes (easier to learn) and order (easier to see patterns) would enhance local knowledge and improve the efficiency of the small trader.

It is the bad design and lack of granularity that is wrong with Eircode. It is basically a bad design.

Would it be possible to link each eircode to an ordered/sequenced code such as the numeric one you are describing?

MBSnr

I haven't followed the thread in detail as *yawn* 'same old' but this posted today...

http://www.thejournal.ie/eircode-rude-words-1791638-Nov2014/

"Duggan noted that Eircode is in with Google Maps about embedding the system in its service. He also said there would be a code of practice in place regarding selling on the postcode database to service providers."

ukoda

Sam Russell wrote: »

If loc8 were added to the database of addresses, then a valid address would have a valid loc8 code. A non-address loc8 code would not validate - but no surprise there - it is not an address.

For Eircode, a valid address has a valid Eircode, nothing else has - so it cannot be found and a tempoary Eircode cannot be made up. So the festival field is unknown to everyone - access or no access. Loc8 can have temporary codes - no bother.

What if it was an address? the whole selling point of loc8 is that you can have a code for anywhere on your property, so for your front entrance, your house, your back entrance, your milking parlour, your oil tank etc etc, so these are all the one postal address.. which loc8 is the one in the database? or are we now allowing multiple loc8's against one address?

what if the state did adopt loc8 and appended it to a database, assuming they pick the loc8 thats the centre of your building, but I'm a consumer and i hear that you can generate a loc8 for any location so i go and generate one for the end of my driveway because thats where my mailbox is, so now the loc8 i want to use is not in any database so when i call anywhere (utility/gov etc) they will tell me its not valid.

can you see the absolute mess it would cause having a hash of loc8 mixed with a database? Loc8 is designed to work without a database and it would be a nightmare to try tack it on to a database and leave the free generation of more loc8 codes there. it would be crazy


And i get what you're saying about being able to generate a loc8 for any tree stump at the side of the road or what ever you want, and i got to say that does sound wonderful....in theory

But when would it actually be useful?
take your festival example, lets use Electric Picnic as its the most recent big one, the Gardai were all over twitter and national radio / tv asking people to NOT use their sat navs as they wanted to control (via signage) cars approaches to ensure better flow of traffic, as there was like 6 carparks and depending on your approach they wanted you in a particular car park. no use for loc8 code here. (you could argue that they could use a loc8 for the centre of the festival and then tell people follow signage, but then they could just as easily use the Houses eircode and tell people follow the signage once they get close to the general area)

Take tourist attractions as another example, these all have ticket offices/gift shops etc and will all then have an eircode as they can get mail as its a building. so no need for loc8 here either

take another example, you want a pallet of manure dropped at a field entrance, no delivery driver is going to plonk it down and drive off without a) calling to check its the right place, which will involve using landmarks etc, so you could have just gave him directions. and b) without getting a signature for the delivery. so its more likely you'll put the delivery address as your house and when he arrives or is on approach you direct him to the place you want to set it down or you go with him to show him.

Loc8 does sound wonderful that you can create a code for any patch of land +/-6 meters but really in our day to day lives this will be of little to no use to anyone, people want to navigate to buildings. buildings will have eircodes. people don't want to navigate to patches of land.

Sam Russell

ukoda wrote: »

What if it was an address? the whole selling point of loc8 is that you can have a code for anywhere on your property, so for your front entrance, your house, your back entrance, your milking parlour, your oil tank etc etc, so these are all the one postal address.. which loc8 is the one in the database? or are we now allowing multiple loc8's against one address?

what if the state did adopt loc8 and appended it to a database, assuming they pick the loc8 thats the centre of your building, but I'm a consumer and i hear that you can generate a loc8 for any location so i go and generate one for the end of my driveway because thats where my mailbox is, so now the loc8 i want to use is not in any database so when i call anywhere (utility/gov etc) they will tell me its not valid.

can you see the absolute mess it would cause having a hash of loc8 mixed with a database? Loc8 is designed to work without a database and it would be a nightmare to try tack it on to a database and leave the free generation of more loc8 codes there. it would be crazy


And i get what you're saying about being able to generate a loc8 for any tree stump at the side of the road or what ever you want, and i got to say that does sound wonderful....in theory

But when would it actually be useful?
take your festival example, lets use Electric Picnic as its the most recent big one, the Gardai were all over twitter and national radio / tv asking people to NOT use their sat navs as they wanted to control (via signage) cars approaches to ensure better flow of traffic, as there was like 6 carparks and depending on your approach they wanted you in a particular car park. no use for loc8 code here. (you could argue that they could use a loc8 for the centre of the festival and then tell people follow signage, but then they could just as easily use the Houses eircode and tell people follow the signage once they get close to the general area)

Take tourist attractions as another example, these all have ticket offices/gift shops etc and will all then have an eircode as they can get mail as its a building. so no need for loc8 here either

take another example, you want a pallet of manure dropped at a field entrance, no delivery driver is going to plonk it down and drive off without a) calling to check its the right place, which will involve using landmarks etc, so you could have just gave him directions. and b) without getting a signature for the delivery. so its more likely you'll put the delivery address as your house and when he arrives or is on approach you direct him to the place you want to set it down or you go with him to show him.

Loc8 does sound wonderful that you can create a code for any patch of land +/-6 meters but really in our day to day lives this will be of little to no use to anyone, people want to navigate to buildings. buildings will have eircodes. people don't want to navigate to patches of land.

You are missing the point completely.

The Eircode I am given is the only one I would be given, so if they had chosen loc8, I would get my official loc8 code. That is the only one I use.

If I want a pallet delivered to a gap in the hedge, 2km from my house, I give the driver the loc8 code and he drops the pallet there. No bother. If he needs a signature, I will meet him there or meet him at my home loc8 code, or even some other loc8 code. Brilliantly flexible.

For traffic control, Gardaí issue instructions - For the Blue Car Park (Loc8-1); For the Red Car Park (loc8-2); and the Green Car Park (loc8-3) - or follow coloured signs.

Simples. These could be on signs or broadcast. Flexible - that is what is needed.

Eircode - not at the races.

I have no idea about Loc8 - I do not use it - never had. But I recognise its flexibility.

ukoda

Sam Russell wrote: »

You are missing the point completely.

The Eircode I am given is the only one I would be given, so if they had chosen loc8, I would get my official loc8 code. That is the only one I use.

If I want a pallet delivered to a gap in the hedge, 2km from my house, I give the driver the loc8 code and he drops the pallet there. No bother. If he needs a signature, I will meet him there or meet him at my home loc8 code, or even some other loc8 code. Brilliantly flexible.

For traffic control, Gardaí issue instructions - For the Blue Car Park (Loc8-1); For the Red Car Park (loc8-2); and the Green Car Park (loc8-3) - or follow coloured signs.

Simples. These could be on signs or broadcast. Flexible - that is what is needed.

Eircode - not at the races.

I have no idea about Loc8 - I do not use it - never had. But I recognise its flexibility.

nope, because they don't want you to follow the road a sat nav will take you. i.e. they want you to exit at junction A if going in one direction, but junction B is probably closer to the car park so thats the one loc8/sat nav wants you to take, so thats why they asked people to not use sat navs.

If you're only allowed use one loc8 code then it completely defeats the purpose of allowing people generate a loc8 for any location. i think you've missed the point!

and take the example of the pallet at a gap in the hedge, thats going to be a local guy in a tractor, he's probably not even going to have a sat nav so loc8 is useless to him. and what are you actually getting delivered here? i can't think of any real life examples, again its just theoretical.

I can't stress enough that in theory it sounds great. but when you bring it down to day to day practical examples, its just not all that great and useful

Sam Russell

Ok, for the low ones at the back.

For traffic control, Gardaí issue instructions - For the Blue Car Park (Loc8-1, then Loc8-1a); For the Red Car Park (loc8-2, then Loc82a); and the Green Car Park (loc8-3, Loc8-3a) - or follow coloured signs. Or whatever is needed in the circumstances.

Eircode is useless at this.

ukoda

Sam Russell wrote: »

Ok, for the low ones at the back.

For traffic control, Gardaí issue instructions - For the Blue Car Park (Loc8-1, then Loc8-1a); For the Red Car Park (loc8-2, then Loc82a); and the Green Car Park (loc8-3, Loc8-3a) - or follow coloured signs. Or whatever is needed in the circumstances.

Eircode is useless at this.

OMG the guards don't want people programming sat navs on the fly while driving!:eek: just turn off the sat nav and follow the signs man and stop over complicating it! that still wouldn't work even if it was practical, because they probably have one way systems in place, so the roads wouldn't be what the sat nav thinks they are (i.e. sat nav says turn left, signs say no left turn, exit only) talk about a over complicated nightmare....really just need people to put the sat nav away and follow the signs / guards instructions

loc8/eircode/anycode is not useful in this example at all.

recedite

ukoda wrote: »

You really cant compare the pricing to Irish Water, thats a mandatory charge to every household in the country. Eircode is optional and if you want it you can buy it. ...This is nothing like Irish Water.

Not so, Irish Water will only charge those with a mains connection (ie those using the service) and of those, a significant number have been paying all along, ie farmers and commercial premises.
Its a valid comparison in that both involve the state owning or funding private (or effectively private) companies to run a service. If the income for the service does not match the expenses of the company, the general taxpayer (ie not the specific user) pays the difference. Those who run the company are not restricted by normal civil service pay restrictions, nor are they restricted by the normal marketplace requirement to make a profit before drawing off bonuses etc..
I would also add in AIB bank and Coillte as other examples of this kind of mish mash between state and private; the worst of both worlds.

ukoda

recedite wrote: »

Not so, Irish Water will only charge those with a mains connection (ie those using the service) and of those, a significant number have been paying all along, ie farmers and commercial premises.
Its a valid comparison in that both involve the state owning or funding private (or effectively private) companies to run a service. If the income for the service does not match the expenses of the company, the general taxpayer (ie not the specific user) pays the difference. Those who run the company are not restricted by normal civil service pay restrictions, nor are they restricted by the normal marketplace requirement to make a profit before drawing off bonuses etc..
I would also add in AIB bank and Coillte as other examples of this kind of mish mash between state and private; the worst of both worlds.

Fair points, I was more getting at the level of outrage won't be the same as it is for Irish Water, I.e. You won't have it as the first headline on every news show for weeks and you won't have huge protests in the streets

Sam Russell

ukoda wrote: »

Fair points, I was more getting at the level of outrage won't be the same as it is for Irish Water, I.e. You won't have it as the first headline on every news show for weeks and you won't have huge protests in the streets

You hope.

Sam Russell

ukoda wrote: »

OMG the guards don't want people programming sat navs on the fly while driving!:eek: just turn off the sat nav and follow the signs man and stop over complicating it! that still wouldn't work even if it was practical, because they probably have one way systems in place, so the roads wouldn't be what the sat nav thinks they are (i.e. sat nav says turn left, signs say no left turn, exit only) talk about a over complicated nightmare....really just need people to put the sat nav away and follow the signs / guards instructions

loc8/eircode/anycode is not useful in this example at all.

Eircode has only one use - to identify a letterbox. No other purpose or use.

Other codes are much more versatile and require a much lower level of computer access, updating, and can be user friendly, which Eircode certainly is not.

ukoda

Sam Russell wrote: »

Eircode has only one use - to identify a letterbox. No other purpose or use.

Other codes are much more versatile and require a much lower level of computer access, updating, and can be user friendly, which Eircode certainly is not.

in your opinion, but the largest deliverer of mail in the country and the largest parcel delivery company in the country say otherwise. One of the largest mapping companies in the world Google Maps seem to want it too.....so who will i listen to?

you're part of a small minority that has a big voice on this thread, but you are a small whisper outside this thread.

expectationlost

being in talks about using it isn't an endorsement that its a good system

yuloni

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yuloni

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ukoda

yuloni wrote: »

When I said eircode has not received any testing, I take it back

According to Liam Duggan of Capita, they have extensively tested the new system using... a game of Scrabble

http://www.thejournal.ie/eircode-rude-words-1791638-Nov2014/

I believe he also went on to say An Post did extensive tests with its systems using eircode

yuloni

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clewbays

yuloni wrote: »

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no, they were removed before the testing started

yuloni

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ukoda

yuloni wrote: »

Found a good interview from technology.ie with Gary Delaney from Loc8

http://technology.ie/audio/technology.ie-2014-09-23.mp3

It's 45 odd minutes long but it's a good listen for those who want to familiarise themselves with the postcode process from the beginning. Plenty mentions of his own product but overall quite insightful around the origins, delays and changes of the project. He also describes quite well how the objective changed from designing a code to designing an address database

Not trying to create a row here, some may find it interesting. If you don't think you want to listen to it... don't

He has a product he could market, there's a place for loc8 even with eircode implemented, he just needs to get over the fact that he wasn't / couldn't be the national postcode and direct his efforts into doing his own marketing plan and taking his product to the next level and it could even have international potential either by loc8 or licensing the tech / algorithm

But his constant moaning and hate campaign against eircode is not going to get him anywhere

I've said this before on this thread, loc8 had 4 years and they didn't make an impact on the Irish market to any real level (yeah I know some people use or had used it but it's pretty much unknown, and yes loads logged on when it was on the news, but that' was the novelty factor and didn't keep momentum) they've made some bad marketing decisions and product direction (in my opinion)

They need to refocus on a new plan now.

yuloni

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ukoda

yuloni wrote: »

If he had submitted and lost, tough shít... suck it up says we. But he wasn't even allowed to submit... that's gotta hurt a little

He still has to suck it up regardless, loc8 is never going to be Ireland's postcode now, starting a "get lost eircode" campaign out of sour grapes isn't going to help him tbh.

The government already said in a letter that even if he had tendered, he wouldn't have won as it didn't meet their criteria, they were always going to go with a database solution tied to the geo directory, it just makes sense to do this as it opens up the uses for more than just navigation (and yes I know you don't agree with that)

yuloni

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ukoda

yuloni wrote: »

Let's be honest though... what exactly were the criteria when Capita were announced as having won the contract? Is there any official document showing 1. what the final criteria were coming into the closing stages of the tender and 2. where the Capita solution ticked all the boxes on said official criteria? Is it a case of the criteria being designed in conjunction with the winning proposal?

There's a very good blog posting (linked below) that shows how well (or poorly) eircode fairs against the various criteria published over the years

http://mapscribbles.blogspot.ie/2014/05/eircode-scorecard.html

Well I've seen that I think it's very biased and disingenuous tbh

yuloni

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Sam Russell

yuloni wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I think, no matter how biased, the blog points out the many failings of the Eircode attempt at a good postcode. It fails on so many points that it should be scrapped and it should be redesigned from scratch.

a65b2cd

Sam Russell wrote: »

fails on so many points that it should be scrapped and it should be redesigned from scratch.

Every code will have strengths and weaknesses if you are looking for a code that has spatial qualities, database qualities, technology free, and memorable. Eircode scores very highly:

Eircode Score: 13/18
1. Stimulate mail volume growth: no
2. Boost national competitiveness: yes
3. Address the problem of non-unique addressing: yes
4. Assist in the provision of public and private sector services: yes
5. ... Utilities: yes
6. ... Emergency services: yes
7. ... Conduct of research: yes
8. To facilitate new postal operators: yes
9. To conform to international practice: no
10. Public postcode, not a “hidden” or technical code: yes
11. Structured: no
12. Easily memorised: yes
13. Future orientated: yes
14. Cost effective, available, accessible, high quality and low maintenance:?
15. Address the issue of non-unique addresses: = 3 above
16. Neutral as between postal operators: yes
17. Minimising cost to operators and government: no
18. Electronically identifiable globally using simple software: yes
19. Efficiency in the postal sector: not applicable yes