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National Postcodes to be introduced
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The location codes from go code and loc8 are basically lat. and long. info expressed in a more intelligent (versatile) and compact way. A business owner would want to give the precise location of his premises, but a private email might supply only a 3 digit area code. I see that condi is supplying the 3 digit loc8 code as part of the boards.ie user profile/signature, a few posts back.A location keyed against email address could be expressed in any grid or code system, but lat and long would seem most reasonable.
I would imagine that loc8 and go code could have an email linked application on their websites linked to their databases, but that once the info is "out there" other sites on the net like web finger would soon trawl the info.0 -
The location codes from go code and loc8 are basically lat. and long. info expressed in a more intelligent (versatile) and compact way. A business owner would want to give the precise location of his premises, but a private email might supply only a 3 digit area code. I see that condi is supplying the 3 digit loc8 code as part of the boards.ie user profile/signature, a few posts back.
The encodings are more compact than lat and long, but for this particular use case they are less versatile, not more. Being optimised for manual entry is no advantage if being used as an intermediate format in a machine lookup based on email address. In fact, since lat and long is what you require from your lookup anyway, the processing and the requirement for a third-party algorithm to perform it make it decidedly inefficient - again, for this particular use case.
Remember that both raw lat/long and traditional grid references can also support different degrees of accuracy in communicating a location. Right now, for instance, I'm at 53 degrees north and 6 degrees west.0 -
The encodings are more compact than lat and long, but for this particular use case they are less versatile, not more. Being optimised for manual entry is no advantage if being used as an intermediate format in a machine lookup based on email address. In fact, since lat and long is what you require from your lookup anyway, the processing and the requirement for a third-party algorithm to perform it make it decidedly inefficient - again, for this particular use case.
Remember that both raw lat/long and traditional grid references can also support different degrees of accuracy in communicating a location. Right now, for instance, I'm at 53 degrees north and 6 degrees west.
You are confusing the readers - this thread is about postcodes or modern alternatives - not about geocoded e-mail addresses. There is no need for Loc8 if humans are not involved - geographic coordinates are normal in those circumstances and well used - nothing new in that and no one is suggesting otherwise (Web Finger Wagging!)
As an aside If you are at 53N 006W - hope you are floating!0 -
Because there's almost no complex situation that can't be understood better by letting cartoon characters generalise about it...
Edit: Embedded version is working again, but in case anybody wants the direct link: http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/7045179/0 -
Join Date:Posts: 5041
Hilarious, but are they really going for the ATH 123 format? I'm hoping common sense will prevail over that one. The only two countries I'm aware of with alphnumeric codes are Canada and the UK - some other countries are partial (NLands & Australia) with the state in characters and location within the state numeric. We should be going all-numeric in line with best practice internationally.Because there's almost no complex situation that can't be understood better by letting cartoon characters generalise about it...
http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/7045179/0 -
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spacetweek wrote: »Hilarious, but are they really going for the ATH 123 format? I'm hoping common sense will prevail over that one. The only two countries I'm aware of with alphnumeric codes are Canada and the UK - some other countries are partial (NLands & Australia) with the state in characters and location within the state numeric. We should be going all-numeric in line with best practice internationally.
Once again a few points need to be considered:
1. The number and type of characters depends on the precision required and the purpose to which the code is to be put to. Most international postcodes are designed purely for sorting mail and therefore need more information to be able to identify individual properties. So before you state what it should look like - please state first what the user requirements and related resolutions are. Loc8's designers first defined user requirements (by talking to industry users) over 4 years of research and built the code to suit those and then refined over 2 years of real field testing. There is nothing else proposed for Ireland that has undergone such a rigorous lead in procedure and certainly nothing that has been field tested!
2. The cartoon is hilarious indeed and the point that the ABC 123 format initially proposed will not work is well made. That is why Loc8 has not used that methodology.
3. A useable Post/Location Code in public use must have certain key characteristics:- Pedicatable - certain things must be expected in certain places - if alpanumeric then it must be always alphnumeric
- Validatable - in software use, the software must be able to absolutely confirm that what it is looking at is the desired code - in Loc8 Codes this is a combination of predictability and the use of a checker code. Postcodes that are all numbers do not satisfy this requirement and can easily be confused with telephone numbers, refernces numbers etc etc. In the case of post or location coes that can be all letters - then no one could ever be sure what they are.
- Must have a single source - as a surveyor/navigator I teach people to use coordinates both Geographic and Grid - but unfortunately many have great difficulty with these and they come in too many formats for casual users. Furthermore, for a Post or Location Code if there are multiple sources with multiple formats and accuracies then this is a recipe for disaster - another reason why coordinates cannot be used.
- All thsese are critical if to be used for emergency services.
- What we should do
- What we should not do
Northern Ireland is definitely a refence point. They tried to introduce road names and numbers to make the UK postcode work there - this failed
- Mackerski suggests that we could try some of this ourselves - except the Post Code Board (independent industry members) report specifically stated that existing addresses cannot be changed. Getting anyone to use property numbers even in cities in Ireland is difficult enough already and changing an address - well that's a bit like "The Field" all over again. So using the UK postcode in NI as a reference will tell us not to try do the same thing - the UK postcode only works where there are road names and property numbers so not a good argument. Also not a good argument as Ireland is completely different in address formats and demographics - Ireland has more of its population living in non urban areas than any other country in Europe - at least 10 times more. Up to 40% of Irish addresses are non unique - again not something that happens in England!
Then the real thrust of Makerski's argument is that whatever is put in place must be liccense free for bulk users. Mackerski represents OSM who want to use whatever is developed to promote their own mapping product which OSM allows others to use and sell if they wish - so license free to OSM but their customers can make money out of it! That is why OSM has made a desperate effort to develop a solution itself - posted here 2 days ago
Mackerski uses tracklogs to make maps for OSM (in addition to his normal daytime commercial and business activities) - his knowldege of Postcodes extends to OSM's pressure in the UK to free the postcode. That is so that bulk users of the UK postcode can use it for free - i.e. OSM can use it for free in its mapping which it gives to others who then can sell it if they wish.
After 50 years (celebrated earlier this year) the Royal Mail is now freeing up the postcode as Mackerski suggests but that is after 50 years of set-up, development, promotion and maintenance costs. Billions of pounds has been spent on achieving 95% penetration in this time. Mackerski now suggests that no matter what the related costs are here in Ireland - bulk users such as OSM who use to promote their own organisation with or without license or cost should benefit from whatever investment is put in themselves.
So it is important to split out the points in Mackerski's cartoon - ultimately he is promoting a better system than in the UK - that is good but his interest is making sure OSM can have access to the best system to promote itself amongst its users (commercial or otherwise) and improve the value when eventually OSM is sold to commercial interests. It is also important to realise that private users can use their codes without any cost in the UK and that will be the same here no matter what system is used - The thrust of Makerski's innocent little cartoon is to sell the idea of license free bulk use of codes for OSM and their commercial users.
So lets get back to the real issues:
Does Ireland need a traditional Postcode? - no - traditional postcodes are a 1950's solution for sorting mail and relate to properties only - Sorting Mail nowadays can be done without a postcode - delivering is the problem and that is why whatever solution is introduced it must be capable of guiding the "deliverer" to the door. Goods also get delivered to non properties (building materials, farm supplies, catering goods to outdoor events etc etc- so again whatever code is adopted must be able to satisfy that requirement also. That is what Loc8 Codes do - they are a modern form of postcode - capable of supporting a delivery without changing an address in the case of properties, capable of supporting deliveries to non properties and capable of guiding vehicles or people into a particular building or site entrance or to specific car park places or meeting points.
Finally Mackerski speaks on the basis of OSM's knowledge in the UK. There, to implement the postcode in OSM mapping - an address database must be added and maintained - expensive - and expensive to keep up to date (wonder who will pay for updating if the Royal Mail is giving away for nothing? - Royal Mail is now selling a more accurate door point accuracy database!!!) Loc8 does not need any database or any maintenence - it is a coordiante system built specifically to allow the untrained use it without error - so very inexpensive in time, programming and resources to implement and in fact it would not be implemented by a mapping agency - Navteq, TeleAtlas, OSI, OSNI or even OSM - it would be implemented by the software manufacturer themselves (as Garmin have already done) - so a very different proposition than Mackerski or OSM understands.
There is more to post or location codes that just how many characters or what type of characters - I think IrlJidl and OSM might understand that now!0 -
Then the real thrust of Makerski's argument is that whatever is put in place must be liccense free for bulk users. Mackerski represents OSM who want to use whatever is developed to promote their own mapping product which OSM allows others to use and sell if they wish - so license free to OSM but their customers can make money out of it!
I think we should make it clear that neither I or Mackerski officially represent OSM. We're not members of the OSM foundation or any other OSM committee. I have as much rights or ownership to the data as you have.
We're both just OSM enthusiasts who are interested in contributing towards the OSM map of Ireland.That is why OSM has made a desperate effort to develop a solution itself - posted here 2 days ago
I am not OSM and I didn't develop the solution - I just pointed out the tinyurl type code that is used to generate short location links to a lat-long location.So it is important to split out the points in Mackerski's cartoon - ultimately he is promoting a better system than in the UK - that is good but his interest is making sure OSM can have access to the best system to promote itself amongst its users (commercial or otherwise) and improve the value when eventually OSM is sold to commercial interests. It is also important to realise that private users can use their codes without any cost in the UK and that will be the same here no matter what system is used - The thrust of Makerski's innocent little cartoon is to sell the idea of license free bulk use of codes for OSM and their commercial users.
OSM cannot be sold, everybody owns the data. OSM does not have commercial interests.
I come from a background of the Internet industry which is where it is today due to the open protocols and open operating system and application software. This created an ecosystem where it evolved into something much bigger and flexible that if it was a closed system.
In my view, geo-data is too important to be owned and managed by closed proprietary systems . Having open geo-data and open geo-standards could create a whole new slew of industries using this data in interesting and novel ways.There is more to post or location codes that just how many characters or what type of characters - I think IrlJidl and OSM might understand that now!
Your post gave me a chuckle - I'll try and find a rude code that maps to Bastardstown in Wexford so we can have a double-whammy ;-)0 -
spacetweek wrote: »Hilarious, but are they really going for the ATH 123 format? I'm hoping common sense will prevail over that one. The only two countries I'm aware of with alphnumeric codes are Canada and the UK - some other countries are partial (NLands & Australia) with the state in characters and location within the state numeric. We should be going all-numeric in line with best practice internationally.
This is an account of the proposed system, based on documents supplied to journalists by the government department. There is some more information on the Department's website.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0922/1224254988303.html0 -
That is why OSM has made a desperate effort to develop a solution itself - posted here 2 days ago
It's hardly desperate - OSM shortlink codes have exactly one function, and it's one they have been fulfilling well in the year or so that they have existed.
To link to a particular part of the OSM slippy map, we used to have to use a link like this:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=53.3736&lon=-6.37774&zoom=17&layers=M
The shortlink allows that to be:
http://osm.org/go/es@Sc0FGs-
This was knocked out as a quick and dirty solution to the problem of links that would otherwise end up word-wrapped if quoted in email. To keep them short while still working worldwide, the codes have been allowed to be case-sensitive, extra characters have been permitted that would be confusing in a post- or location code and even the hyphens are significant rather than being provided for punctuation. All of these characteristics would make them very poor for human entry, but that's not what they're for, so that's OK. They are also too long for that. So don't worry - we won't be trying to eat your lunch any time soon. Turning map locations into codes to be handed around to users who will turn them back into locations isn't something most OSM mappers will care about - if people find reasons to do so using OSM that's fine, though.Mackerski uses tracklogs to make maps for OSM (in addition to his normal daytime commercial and business activities) - his knowldege of Postcodes extends to OSM's pressure in the UK to free the postcode. That is so that bulk users of the UK postcode can use it for free - i.e. OSM can use it for free in its mapping which it gives to others who then can sell it if they wish.
On a point of board etiquette, I consider it polite not to state things about other posters that I don't know, especially the extent of their knowledge. Your tone is tending towards ad hominem argument. Let's stick to the the subject matter, shall we?After 50 years (celebrated earlier this year) the Royal Mail is now freeing up the postcode as Mackerski suggests but that is after 50 years of set-up, development, promotion and maintenance costs. Billions of pounds has been spent on achieving 95% penetration in this time. Mackerski now suggests that no matter what the related costs are here in Ireland - bulk users such as OSM who use to promote their own organisation with or without license or cost should benefit from whatever investment is put in themselves.
The UK postcode release is actually from the Ordnance Survey. And indeed it isn't of the entire (let's call it) value-added postcode database, in that it contains co-ordinates of delivery points, but not actual street addresses. As such, it represents a nice compromise. Some people will still wish to pay for a postcode database that allows, among other things, address completion based on house number and postcode. Others (like OSM) will find it sufficient to have a single set of co-ordinates per postcode.
Likewise what I advocate for Irish postcodes. There are two things I specifically don't request and never have.
The first is any special treatment for OSM or anybody else. Indeed, OSM's "outbound" data licence is more or less designed to make it impossible for the project (in the shape of independent mappers, which is all we are) to enter into such deals anyway - if it goes into OSM, everybody is free to use it under the usual, liberal, licence terms. This is our idea of "What You See Is What You Get", even though it will make us look rather choosy when it comes to what data we will accept into the map.
The second thing I have never asked for is free access to a body of work whose complexity is so great as to require, by necessity, commercial income in order to become viable. No sir - that would be unreasonable, right? But I do demand that information necessary to perform certain mundane things - like locating an address in the ways the state suggests we should - should be possible for all people reasonably wishing to do so. And that includes a project like OSM with no budget for such things.
So how do you pay for the implementation of postcodes? Two options. One is to implement simpler codes. The government has preferred not to, but most of the world has gone down this road and has applied sufficient structure to their addresses to make this OK. And as I mentioned in my cartoon, even the government-proposed postcodes won't yield unique addresses without the addition of house numbers. The government is running a mile from changing the address scheme - I can see why, and I think it's actually the safest option if they want postcodes to succeed.
However, I don't think the addition of a house number alone to properties that lack one represents a step change to the addressing scheme. Some people will consider themselves too important to use a house number, and that's fine, the world won't end because of that. Their postie will continue to know that the Murphy family lives in the same house they always did. Likewise DHL deliveries will continue to have trouble finding them, and their deliveries may sometimes end up back in the depot.
This may lead them to start owning up to their house number a bit more often - DHL might use the premium version of the postcode database to look up exactly where the Murphy house number really is, where users of the free database would have to make do with a centre point for the townland or townland portion referred to by the postcode alone. Indeed, DHL might begin to charge more to deliver to addresses where no house number is supplied.that is good but his interest is making sure OSM can have access to the best system to promote itself amongst its users (commercial or otherwise) and improve the value when eventually OSM is sold to commercial interests.
Who should sell OSM? Nobody owns it. FUD like this is gravely offensive to any mapper. It's bizarre that you could ascribe a motive to somebody on the basis of supposed future events that it is impossible for them to carry out. Anybody on this thread is free today to commercially exploit OSM, and I encourage as many of you as wish to to go and do it.
But try to understand it first.Finally Mackerski speaks on the basis of OSM's knowledge in the UK. There, to implement the postcode in OSM mapping - an address database must be added and maintained - expensive - and expensive to keep up to date
Not so - co-ordinates are fine. OSM, in areas where mapping exceeds a certain level of detail, already has an address database (albeit not a definitive one, so people will still wish to licence an official one), so co-ordinates are fine for any of our current applications.0 -
Just wondering.... as I have a validated loc8 code, which required me to supply my e-mail address, have I already inadvertently given this authorisation to Loc8 and any other third party they may wish to share it with? By agreeing to my loc8 "address" info being shared.Deleted User wrote: »A simple application where a user enters the email (with prior authorisation from the addressee) and a map appears giving the precise location.
I don't mind the house address being linked to the code, but I prefer not to have the e-mail address linked to these.0 -
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Just wondering.... as I have a validated loc8 code, which required me to supply my e-mail address, have I already inadvertently given this authorisation to Loc8 and any other third party they may wish to share it with? By agreeing to my loc8 "address" info being shared.
I don't mind the house address being linked to the code, but I prefer not to have the e-mail address linked to these.
My understanding is that the email was only used to validate the address, as in getting an email to check that you positioned your house correctly.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »My understanding is that the email was only used to validate the address, as in getting an email to check that you positioned your house correctly.
You are indeed correct - when you chose to give your personal e-mail address, this is only used to communicate with you regarding your code (validation etc) and for you to access your account. E-mail addresses are not shared with anyone and are protected in accordance with data protection requirements. Personal email addresses are stored encrypted in our system as is the norm. Our Privacy Policy is on the bottom of each page on the site and presented when you choes to validate your code. Furthermore our use of e-mails is covered in great detail in the help page on the site
No personal information is associated with Loc8 codes - hope this hleps0 -
Unless you work for a software company that needs to know ahead of time what the system will be, and what the codes look like
It's a big fuss about nothing, the only problem is scarred people that the sky will fall down and people having idea's that the numbers and letters used have to relate to where the address is and be able to know what the next street's postcode is based on the one you are in.
It's only a code dah0 -
Once again a few points need to be considered:
1. The number and type of characters depends on the precision required and the purpose to which the code is to be put to. Most international postcodes are designed purely for sorting mail and therefore need more information to be able to identify individual properties. So before you state what it should look like - please state first what the user requirements and related resolutions are. Loc8's designers first defined user requirements (by talking to industry users) over 4 years of research and built the code to suit those and then refined over 2 years of real field testing. There is nothing else proposed for Ireland that has undergone such a rigorous lead in procedure and certainly nothing that has been field tested!
2. The cartoon is hilarious indeed and the point that the ABC 123 format initially proposed will not work is well made. That is why Loc8 has not used that methodology.
3. A useable Post/Location Code in public use must have certain key characteristics:- Pedicatable - certain things must be expected in certain places - if alpanumeric then it must be always alphnumeric
- Validatable - in software use, the software must be able to absolutely confirm that what it is looking at is the desired code - in Loc8 Codes this is a combination of predictability and the use of a checker code. Postcodes that are all numbers do not satisfy this requirement and can easily be confused with telephone numbers, refernces numbers etc etc. In the case of post or location coes that can be all letters - then no one could ever be sure what they are.
- Must have a single source - as a surveyor/navigator I teach people to use coordinates both Geographic and Grid - but unfortunately many have great difficulty with these and they come in too many formats for casual users. Furthermore, for a Post or Location Code if there are multiple sources with multiple formats and accuracies then this is a recipe for disaster - another reason why coordinates cannot be used.
- All thsese are critical if to be used for emergency services.
- What we should do
- What we should not do
Northern Ireland is definitely a refence point. They tried to introduce road names and numbers to make the UK postcode work there - this failed
- Mackerski suggests that we could try some of this ourselves - except the Post Code Board (independent industry members) report specifically stated that existing addresses cannot be changed. Getting anyone to use property numbers even in cities in Ireland is difficult enough already and changing an address - well that's a bit like "The Field" all over again. So using the UK postcode in NI as a reference will tell us not to try do the same thing - the UK postcode only works where there are road names and property numbers so not a good argument. Also not a good argument as Ireland is completely different in address formats and demographics - Ireland has more of its population living in non urban areas than any other country in Europe - at least 10 times more. Up to 40% of Irish addresses are non unique - again not something that happens in England!
Then the real thrust of Makerski's argument is that whatever is put in place must be liccense free for bulk users. Mackerski represents OSM who want to use whatever is developed to promote their own mapping product which OSM allows others to use and sell if they wish - so license free to OSM but their customers can make money out of it! That is why OSM has made a desperate effort to develop a solution itself - posted here 2 days ago
Mackerski uses tracklogs to make maps for OSM (in addition to his normal daytime commercial and business activities) - his knowldege of Postcodes extends to OSM's pressure in the UK to free the postcode. That is so that bulk users of the UK postcode can use it for free - i.e. OSM can use it for free in its mapping which it gives to others who then can sell it if they wish.
After 50 years (celebrated earlier this year) the Royal Mail is now freeing up the postcode as Mackerski suggests but that is after 50 years of set-up, development, promotion and maintenance costs. Billions of pounds has been spent on achieving 95% penetration in this time. Mackerski now suggests that no matter what the related costs are here in Ireland - bulk users such as OSM who use to promote their own organisation with or without license or cost should benefit from whatever investment is put in themselves.
So it is important to split out the points in Mackerski's cartoon - ultimately he is promoting a better system than in the UK - that is good but his interest is making sure OSM can have access to the best system to promote itself amongst its users (commercial or otherwise) and improve the value when eventually OSM is sold to commercial interests. It is also important to realise that private users can use their codes without any cost in the UK and that will be the same here no matter what system is used - The thrust of Makerski's innocent little cartoon is to sell the idea of license free bulk use of codes for OSM and their commercial users.
So lets get back to the real issues:
Does Ireland need a traditional Postcode? - no - traditional postcodes are a 1950's solution for sorting mail and relate to properties only - Sorting Mail nowadays can be done without a postcode - delivering is the problem and that is why whatever solution is introduced it must be capable of guiding the "deliverer" to the door. Goods also get delivered to non properties (building materials, farm supplies, catering goods to outdoor events etc etc- so again whatever code is adopted must be able to satisfy that requirement also. That is what Loc8 Codes do - they are a modern form of postcode - capable of supporting a delivery without changing an address in the case of properties, capable of supporting deliveries to non properties and capable of guiding vehicles or people into a particular building or site entrance or to specific car park places or meeting points.
Finally Mackerski speaks on the basis of OSM's knowledge in the UK. There, to implement the postcode in OSM mapping - an address database must be added and maintained - expensive - and expensive to keep up to date (wonder who will pay for updating if the Royal Mail is giving away for nothing? - Royal Mail is now selling a more accurate door point accuracy database!!!) Loc8 does not need any database or any maintenence - it is a coordiante system built specifically to allow the untrained use it without error - so very inexpensive in time, programming and resources to implement and in fact it would not be implemented by a mapping agency - Navteq, TeleAtlas, OSI, OSNI or even OSM - it would be implemented by the software manufacturer themselves (as Garmin have already done) - so a very different proposition than Mackerski or OSM understands.
There is more to post or location codes that just how many characters or what type of characters - I think IrlJidl and OSM might understand that now!
Well it's a long statement, 1 point, all that's needed - NOT ALL UK HOUSES HAVE NUMBERS, SOME JUST HAVE NAMES.
So get real a UK based postcode system would work, stop trying to over complicated the matter with find the gps or geo or some other spaz system to pin the codes to a gps system0 -
But how do you measure success? Consumer uptake? Consumers are not likely to value the same things the government has on its shopping list.
You don't give them the choice, you have time to use the new system and then it does not get delivered, so there is a choice use it or lose your post.0 -
I really don't know what the big fuss is about introducing a code to improve the accuracy of addresses.
Some of the arguments against it that I have been hearing are just utterly ridiculous.
I was reading some old articles and there were similar silly technophobic arguments against removing manual (operator based) telephone exchanges in the 1960s and 70s! i.e. lack of personal touch etc etc.
We absolutely need a codified addressing system a.s.a.p.
Incidentally, some of the continental numeric systems are about as useless as manual addresses e.g. the French system only defines the town or arrondissement in very large cities (e.g. Paris, Lyon etc). They're completely useless for vague addresses like those in Ireland.
E.g. Paris 75001
75 = Paris (very useful!)
001 = Arrondissement 1
So, basically it provides no more information than the 19th century address: Paris 1
Bordeaux 33000 = The ENTIRE central area of Bordeaux, which is an area as big as Dublin.
Most of these systems were only useful for the post office's primitive mail sortation (automatic sorting) systems in the 1960s/70s and still rely on a very accurate street address.
Ireland needs something like one of the systems being discussed in here as we don't have accurate street addressees for most of our buildings, even those IN urban areas!0 -
How is mail delivered in Bordeaux of Paris?
Do the postmen read the street address and use that piece of information to figure out where to deliver the mail to?0 -
They certainly do. It is made a lot easier by addresses having a standard format. There are no instances of two streets with the same name in the same postal area, as occurs in Ireland.
In france, addresses are basically 4 lines long. In Ireland, because of the ambiguity, full addresses can end up 9 or 10 lines long.0 -
Carawaystick wrote: »How is mail delivered in Bordeaux of Paris?
Do the postmen read the street address and use that piece of information to figure out where to deliver the mail to?
I was just using the French example to show that not all European postal code systems are particularly sophisticated, accurate or useful for GPS or non-post office use.
BTW: Bordeaux is actually a large city (slightly smaller than Dublin) in the Southwest of France, it's not an area of Paris.
French system:
France was divided into 100 departments after the French Revolution. These are numbered 00 to 99 in mainland France. So, the first two digits of the postal code are the department number.
The last 3 digits are used to identify the town or arrondissement (numbered urban area).
In the case of a large town/city the main area is always 000.
Other large towns would be 100,200,300, and so on.
In Paris and Lyon and other large cities they whack the arrondissement number on the end of the postal code e.g. 16 arrondissement of Paris is 75016.
This system was introduced decades ago to automate and speed up the sorting of post. It allowed postal workers to sort very quickly using semi-automatic machinery where the postal code could be either read or keyed in.
All this system does is codify the name of the town! It's effectively the lowest resolution system you could possibly use, even though it looks quite high-tech.
This is exactly the kind of system we DO NOT need in Ireland as it would provide absolutely no advantages at all and would be useless for anyone other than An Post.
I also think it demonstrates why attempting to incorporate the old Dublin or Cork district numbers (which are akin to arrondissements in France) is completely futile as it just distorts the system and makes it less accurate for GPS use.0 -
Last week I dropped an email to Minister Eamonn Ryan aslking him what the current status of the postcode roll-out is because the website has not been updated in a few months.
http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Communications/Postal/Postcodes.htm
I am still waiting for an answer...
If anyone else feels like asking this or any other postcode related question question his contact details are here available here.
http://www.greenparty.ie/en/people/eamon_ryan
It looks looks this postcode roll-out is not happening (yet again)0 -
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Last week I dropped an email to Minister Eamonn Ryan aslking him what the current status of the postcode roll-out is because the website has not been updated in a few months.
http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Communications/Postal/Postcodes.htm
I am still waiting for an answer...
If anyone else feels like asking this or any other postcode related question question his contact details are here available here.
http://www.greenparty.ie/en/people/eamon_ryan
It looks looks this postcode roll-out is not happening (yet again)
Eamon's probably busy in Limerick looking for Willie O' Dea right now - maybe if you tweeted - then someone else form the party might answer for him!- The Government Proposal is 2 years and 8.5 months overdue!
- A grand announcement this time last year said that Postcodes would be implemented by early 2011 - not much chance of that now- they have not even picked who's doing it yet and it will take at least 18 months after that!
- A tender to find new Government advisors on postcodes was cancelled in May and a new one still has not resulted in any appointment !
- In March the FF Chairman of the Oireachtas Communications Committee, MJ Nolan, released a report into postcodes criticising the Government plan and recommending a modern approach.
- What's planned as a postcode anyhow couldn't even find O' Dea in the Dail!
So Who_am_I - are you suprised that there is no answer ? - or maybe the answer is in this thread already - a smarter and modern type of postcode was launched by a Cork Company with Garmin in July - the Loc8 Code - never cost the Government a green cent!
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[*]In March the FF Chairman of the Oireachtas Communications Committee, MJ Nolan, released a report into postcodes criticising the Government plan and recommending a modern approach.
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Garydubh - the updated PostCodes Report prepared by Liz McManus which you mention above was actually revised in April this year here. It says a unique identifier system should be used and refers to GeoDirectory, the PON code system from gps ireland which is no longer available and to another location code called Go Code which they say is ready to be implemented.
Here's the extract from Page 18 of the Report in case you can't find the revised version:It is clear that mapping services are becoming increasingly ubiquitous with the rise in GPS enabled phones, Google maps, etc. The technology is available to easily identify individual properties. Given the shift in available technologies nationally and internationally, it is possible that previous data protection considerations around postcodes may have changed.
In order to obtain real benefits from the significant investment required for the introduction of postcodes it would be preferable to introduce location based postcode.
GO Code is an Irish-owned privately held company based in Dublin set up in 2007. It has designed and owns a Smart Economy long/lat based postal location code system for Ireland. The company plans to export it for use in countries that have no postcode, especially developing countries, with the aim of making Ireland a world leader in postcode technology.
It has also created a database of Irish addresses for the Republic of Ireland and without having to change any address has appended a unique GO Code as an identifier to each one.
A GO Code is a multi-character code (from 1 to 7 characters) that is translated by means of a mathematical formula, and without the use of a database, into the long/lat coordinates of a location. A 7-character code is precise enough to identify the front gate of a property.
GO Code has been tested by couriers, logistics and market research companies and is working now with web, mobile phone and sat-nav technologies. The GO Code system is now ready for implementation as a location postal code in Ireland.0 -
Pon codes became Loc8 codes in a later version; they probably should have updated that info when they were plugging the Gocodes.the PON code system from gps ireland which is no longer available
BTW Liz Mc Manus has announced her retirement for next elections; she was the main champion for sensible GPS compatible codes.0 -
Pon codes became Loc8 codes in a later version; they probably should have updated that info when they were plugging the Gocodes.
BTW Liz Mc Manus has announced her retirement for next elections; she was the main champion for sensible GPS compatible codes.
Well it says it was revised in April when PON codes were still in existence, so they were plugging the ones available at the time. the loc8codes didn't appear until the summer - July?? Still Garydubh is right - they were obviously recommending solutions like Go Codes instead of the Govt model.
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Ryan under fire as firm wins €0.5m contract on postcodes
Saturday October 02 2010
THE company that recommended the introduction of a postcode system has now been awarded the contract to oversee its establishment.
The Irish Independent has learned that PA Consulting has been awarded a €560,000 contract by the Department of Communications.
This is the same company which recently compiled a report for the department's minister, Eamon Ryan, and recommended the setting up of a national postcode system.
It advised that the new system would save public bodies -- including the emergency services -- upwards of €22m because it enables cross-departmental sharing of public data and information.
However, Mr Ryan admitted that "benefits of such a type of system cannot be accurately gauged in monetary terms".
Last night, the Labour Party accused Mr Ryan of pushing ahead with a system that was "out of date and cumbersome".
A total of 11 offers were received for the two-year consultancy contract -- but last night the department said the package received from PA Consulting "scored the highest of all applicants against selected criteria".
The new postal system will cost between €10m and €15m to implement, with PA Consulting -- a UK-based company -- advising a company on their work. This is in contrast to an earlier 'postcodes board' set up by former Communications Minister Noel Dempsey which predicted an overall introduction cost of €50m.
Debate
"A company has not yet been appointed for the actual implementation of the new system," a spokeswoman for the department said last night.
"As part of their work, PA will consider practical issues re implementation and assist the department in that regard."
Mr Ryan also said a locational code system will "unlock the potential across government departments for use of this spatial data for policy planning".
However, the Ordnance Survey has been compiling a spatial planning system for over a year.
It is envisaged that the new six-digit system will be operational from early 2011.
For example, Dublin 4 changing to D04 123 -- with the last three digits specific to the local area.
Outside of Dublin, counties will follow the car licence plate system with for example, Galway becoming GAL 123 and Athlone town changing to ATH 123. However, the changes will provoke debate in Gaeltacht areas where the likes of Dingle/Daingean obviously have a different front three initials.
Liz McManus, Labour's spokeswoman on communications, said the latest technology should be used in the implementation of any postcode scheme.
"We have proposed using a unique identifier system which is compatible with GPS," she said.
"We are the last in and we should at least be the best. The minister is stuck in a time warp and is planning to spend all this money at a time when we simply don't have it."
Fine Gael's Leo Varadkar said an Oireachtas committee had recommended the introduction of a GPS-based system which was already available via sat-nav companies.
- Edel Kennedy
Irish Independent - 2 October 2010
This is an absolute disgrace. A 1960s postcode system, copied from Britain. It is already redundant. I think the Irish language statutory bodies should launch a High Court challenge, which they will win! A complete dog's dinner of a proposal!0 -
This is all over my head anyway, but how are they going to distinguish ATHlone from ATHboy? Or KILdare from KILkenny, KILarney or KILrush? DUNdalk from DUNgarvan?0
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Ah Postcodes in the news again - exactly 1 year ago the Minsiter stated that we would have postcodes by early 2011 - and then it all got forgotten about again until now.
Now 1 year later what was supposed to have happened before Christmas 2009 has happened - PA consulting has been appointed to advise the Minister on what to do next. (the tender competition took 2 attempts and a period of 8 months!!!)
WE ARE NO NEARER A NATIONAL POSTCODE BEING IMPLEMENTED:
PA Consulting was engaged officially on 27th Sept 2010: The services to be provided include advising on the design and management of a selection process for a party or parties to implement, to maintain and to run a national postcode system and to ensure the delivery of a working postcode system
so to be very clear it will not be PA consulting who is implementing that national postcode - that is aanother big step yet to come.!
PA Consulting was engaged for this purpose twice before and now they are going to consult on what postcode and what tender process and then oversee whatever happens therefater.
Once again, statements that a National Postcode would be implemented by early 2011 are without foundation and completely unrealistic. This is a legacy of the statement made by the Minister in Sept 2009 which assumed work would have started in 2009 and assumed that the process to re-appoint advisors would not take 12 months from then to achieve!
The Process Going Forward if it happens may look like this:
1. Consultation by PA - Oct/Nov 2010
2. Recommendations - Dec/Jan 2010/11
3. If agreement and finances available: Tender started Feb 2011
4. Tender Close - end April 2011
5. If No General Election (question during PA tender indicated that if Government changed then the process would not continue) Tenderer Appointed - June/July 2011.
6. + 12 months of preparation work - Mid 2012 before any National postcode would appear.
Also if PA consulting decide to recommend proceeding with the Government proposal (unlikley given Oireachtas report, Cost and lack of functionality and support), it will not be useable by the logistics/tourist industries as it will not be a capable of identifying individual properties and as per their own report in 2008 and Version 1's detailed analysis which emphasised that the resolution of non unique addresses in Ireland is a critical part of any proposed postcode. So It will have been 7 years of work and this still will not have been achieved. The current "ABC 123" model still for consideration now by PA will not be useable on SatNavs or iphones and therefore never usable by someone in a van trying to find a property to deliver a service!!!
The Minister's reference to a "Locational" system is misleading - he has now conceded that the centre of a postcode area will have a geographic coordinates - but this just means that if it were useable on a SatNav the van driver would be guided to the middle of the lake about which a postcode area containing up to 50 properties is dispersed!!
The Oireachtas report published back in April 2010 and signed by MJ Nolan TD of FF indicated that this was the wrong approach and we can only assume that PA will confirm this before they make their recommendations on how to proceed to the Minister in January coming.
Also lets look a little closer at the implementation costs being quoted
A letter to DCENR on 23rd Septmber 2008 by PA Consulting very definitely identifies €52 million in costs regarding the introduction of Poscodes as follows:
Postcode holderImplementation CostsAn Post€14,321,531Postal Private Sector€27,477,310Banking€1,391,755Utilities€1,078,035Retail€434,726Telecommunication€2,263,854Insurance€700,213Government services€807,581€4,392,652
representing a total of: €52,867,657
So even if we take out the costs that will be borne by private enterprise (bank costs left in as they are mainly state owned) - the cost will be €48.5 million approx and this is for a system which according to the Oireachtas report will not satisfy modern requirements and will not be useable by our logistics sector; even a tourist driving around Ireland will still not be able to find a B&B or tourist attraction with it. Of course, these figures do not consider the costs related with ongoing maintenance and the potential realted litigation when someone's house at the outskirts of a town is given an "ABC" code which associates it with a country area rather that the town itself. (common in the UK and USA with this 1950's type solution)
And this is happening against the back drop of a real "Locational" Code which was introduced by Loc8 and Garmin back in July, which is capable of identifying individaul properties, including individual entrances to properties and is already being used in the logistics sector.
On Monday 27th Septmber 2010 last Eamon Ryan TD delivered the key note address at an EU conference in Dublin on the digital agenda. His address fully supported this agenda, part of which sets out to ensure that that 50% of the population will purchase on line by 2015. However, he failed to recognise that the postcode that his Department is planning will actual undermine this plan rather than support it. A postcode that cannot assist a courier to deliver goods purchased off the web to the 40% of the population which has a non unique address will not in any way asist web based sales.
In the meantime Loc8 (and Irish Company based in Crosshaven in Cork delivering up to 20 jobs) and Garmin have already provided the solution and is already supporting the potential for growth in the web retailing sector and up to 20% in fuel savings for up to 400,000 commercial vehicles delivering goods and services via Irish roads!
It is very possible that Loc8 would make Loc8 Codes available to the state a cost which is only a tiny fraction of the current proposal.
So PA consulting's appointment is only to act as advisors - which they have done on this subject at lease twice before!0 -
"It is envisaged that the new six-digit system will be operational from early 2011.
For example, Dublin 4 changing to D04 123 -- with the last three digits specific to the local area.
Outside of Dublin, counties will follow the car licence plate system with for example, Galway becoming GAL 123 and Athlone town changing to ATH 123. However, the changes will provoke debate in Gaeltacht areas where the likes of Dingle/Daingean obviously have a different front three initials."
Is the above extracted from a newspaper quote?..... I can't believe this is the route after all that's been debated.
I'd slit my wrists before telling my overseas colleagues that this is the best we can come up with. :mad:0 -
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This is all over my head anyway, but how are they going to distinguish ATHlone from ATHboy? Or KILdare from KILkenny, KILarney or KILrush? DUNdalk from DUNgarvan?
You'll see a dramatisation of this dilemma and others in my earlier post.0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jguUtYCjog
![[Deleted User]](/applications/dashboard/design/images/defaulticon.png)
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