National Postcodes to be introduced

ukoda

yuloni wrote: »

How much of the actual address does An Post focus on for the first OCR pass? Do they try to nail the the whole route in one or do they try and catch a sorting office first and then a town/townland or PO in another pass?

I've no idea, but I know from the UK postcode users that the postcode is a great help for the address scanners

Jack180570

ukoda wrote: »

Downloads and usage are too completely different things!!! I've downloaded mine, have I ever used it? Nope

And you do realise that 100,000 out of 2.2 million addresses is about 4%?! Oh yeah it's super popular!

God help us... anyway here we go...
Its a free country ukoda and you are perfectly entitled to use Loc8 Code or not, it really depends on whether you need a good location code or not. If you do need one then you will not find a better code than Loc8. I speak as an experienced user who does need a good location code which grants me a competence and knowledge that you do not have. Dont worry about it though as its clear that some contributors here freely knock Loc8 Code even though they know very little about it.

Regarding usage and popularity, I believe that it has several thousand times more users than Eircode?
Please do feel free to correct me if you believe that this is an incorrect statement.

ukoda

Jack180570 wrote: »

God help us... anyway here we go...
Its a free country ukoda and you are perfectly entitled to use Loc8 Code or not, it really depends on whether you need a good location code or not. If you do need one then you will not find a better code than Loc8. I speak as an experienced user who does need a good location code which grants me a competence and knowledge that you do not have. Dont worry about it though as its clear that some contributors here freely knock Loc8 Code even though they know very little about it.

Regarding usage and popularity, I believe that it has several thousand times more users than Eircode?
Please do feel free to correct me if you believe that this is an incorrect statement.

I'll correct you, eircode hasn't launched so it can't have any users. Let's wait till it launches and see if it can pass the 4% that loc8 had managed in 4 years (Yeah I know how long ago they launched publicly because Ive researched them)

And I've always said that loc8 is a good nabigation code, I just don't think its a good national postcode.

yuloni

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Avada

Jack180570 wrote: »

Random, if you were in a car crash or broken down and needed the emergency services you would download the app and give the Loc8 Code, its easier than sending a text or making a phone call... there wouldn't be much point in making the phone call if you couldnt give the Emergency Services your location now would there...

To take your point further, what you are basically saying is that it is too much trouble, so I ask you. If you did not get the emergency service on your first call, would you make a second call? If you wouldn't then it wouldn't be much of an emergency!!

No, what I'm saying is I'd do what I do now and give directions. What if I had no 3g? How would I download the app?

yuloni

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Avada

yuloni wrote: »

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Again, the point is being missed. Calling the emergency services is only 1 tiny use for a postcode (that will in the not so distant future become completely irrelevant with Caller location information systems imo).

The main reason I like Eircode (although I am aware Loc8 provides this) is that it provides a unique address reference to everybody in the country. I dont dislike the idea of loc8 (I dislike the company, I make no secret of that), but I dont see how it provides any benefit over Eircode. We can argue until we are blue in the face, I just dont get the constant dissing of Eircode, it's not a bad product and has many uses, not just mail delivery.

As an example, I've mentioned previously that I work for an ISP. If a customer with a townland address wishes to activate an inactive line in their property it is very difficult to do so unless you are going to Eircom. Other companies only see a list of addresses, so cannot decifer which one is which, therefore cannot provide this. With a unique address reference, we can overcome this, thus ending a monopoly and improving consumer choice.

I'm rambling, but I've made my point, I don't see any benefit to loc8 over Eircode personally. I think Eircode will do exactly what it says on the tin, and that's why I'm glad it is being implemented.

yuloni

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yuloni

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Victor

Jack180570 wrote: »

@Random... what absolute rubbish you write...

Constructive posts only please

Moderator

clewbays

yuloni wrote: »

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The Oireachtas transcripts are available. Eamonn Molloy gave the consultancy figures as €1.3 million to-date. They seem reasonable.

[Eamonn Molloy] To deal with the point on consultants, costs to date over four to five years is approximately €1.3 million. We expect that by the end of the project, costs will be approximately €8.1 million. Consultants' costs on the project will come in just a little below 6% of costs for the project overall.

ukoda

Interesting point that the FTAI mostly represent UK delivery companies and that when they met the Individual companies one to one the reaction was positive


Also the point in having a database to store the codes means that they can add new things or change things in the background without having to rework the code or issue new codes, so if we end up with 3 dementional codes or some other code it can be added to the database and not require the customers code to be change. One of the down sides of loc8 is that the geos are store in the code making them geo only codes really.

And great to see Google maps are straight in there embedding it in their maps

clewbays

The Irish nickname may yet stop eircodes in its tracks

Deputy Brendan Griffin: As a resident of a very rural part of County Kerry, I appreciate the difficulties that exist at present pertaining to a number of people having the same name at the same address. Where I grew up in Caherfealane, there were five Michael Griffins, while in the adjacent townlands of Shanahill and Shanakeal, there were about ten John Foleys or Seán Foleys or whatever but everyone could add a nickname. I am unsure whether the witnesses are aware of the cultural implications whereby these unique identifiers actually could kill the Irish nickname forevermore. Anyway, I hope that does not happen because those nicknames say a lot about us.

I have a couple of questions. My impression is this really is a fallback position and is a verification. While we will rely primarily on the address, where there is ambiguity this is to prove beyond doubt that the item in question is intended for John Foley in a certain house that has this code.

yuloni

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SPDUB

yuloni wrote: »

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Nothing will remove manual sorting at Christmas because no postal delivery company keeps automatic sorting machines that would only be used for 2 or at most 3 weeks of the year

ukoda

yuloni wrote: »

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volume means they will always need Manual sorters at christmas as it would take too long to run everything through the OCR tech. What you are missing is that for the other 11 months of the year, the OCR will be improved as it has a better chance of reading the address if it has an Eircode, meaning less manual eyeballing of letters to figure out what someone was trying to scrawl

Ready for launch?

• When it launches, An Post will be ready so you can use it on every letter you want to send, Nightline will probably be ready also for launch (and despite their moaning, i suspect a lot of other delivery companies will be onboard, excuse the pun)
• All government databases will be encoded so you can use it for your day to day dealings with them
• Google Maps are embedding it, and while not confirmed for launch, i doubt they'll hang around getting it live, so if not ready for launch, it wont be long after until its ready
• Given that the database can be purchased before launch, its highly likely that a lot of businesses will be 'Eircode ready' when it launches.
• All the other stuff will start coming on board as time goes on

As they say, Rome wasnt built in a day.

yuloni

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ukoda

yuloni wrote: »

So if people bother to use it for posting, it might be good for An Post - even though they state it will not improve their next-day delivery (which is already quite good)



See my post here. Why would I bother putting an eircode on a letter? An Post don't need it to deliver their letters and I don't need to find it to get my letter delivered



For paying charges and the like?



Again, only mention of this is from the guy in Capita... same guy who said they had spoken to all stake holders... which was a lie btw



As above, see my post here. Why would businesses bother purchasing the database




Didn't Rome fall to the ground in the end up?

Why would you bother putting any code on a letter? Loc8, eircode etc, because people will just adopt it, as is what happened in every other country

Yes it may help you pay your charges to the government or a utility or whatever, so what, you'd be paying them anyway so why not make the process easier on the consumer (they don't need the code to track people btw, as mentioned before for things like property tax, each property has a code and the geo directory which has every address already exists

I've no doubt that Google maps are onboard

Businesses will purchase the database for the same reason they've purcahsed the geo directory, because it will help their business in many ways, ways which have already been discussed here, data collection, address validation, fraud prevention etc etc etc

And as far as in aware, Rome is still there

Impetus

ozmo wrote: »

I've read the technical document - and what I got from it was:

1) Houses in an apartment block will get unique codes - BUT Company Offices in an Office building will NOT get a unique eircode

Offices in buildings need their own postcodes far more than a private house. They receive more mail and have more visitors. But the idiots who are driving the agenda here obviously couldn't give a jot about the logistics of doing business in Ireland. The same idiots whose salary is being paid largely by business users.

The same applies to PO Boxes. I pay over 250€ a year for a PO Box because I want to collect my mail and not have it lying for all to see as it builds up when I am not "at home" which is for most of the year. Most of the companies who send me stuff in the mail are clueless about the differencce between a billing address (which should go to the PO Box) and the address where the service is provided (eg the delivery address). They seem to have no provision in their badly designed computer systems to handle two addresses. Aside from ESB. Phonewatch would send the Gardai to your PO Box if the alarm went off in one's house. Eircom is no different. Ditto UPC. At least if PO Boxes have their own postcode which is used by the sorting system, you can "force" mail to end up in the very expensive PO Box rather than it accumulating in and around one's home letterbox for all to see.

Ireland is probably the most logistically banjaked country in the western world. Those put in charge of relatively minor issues seem to invariably make a mess of things.

This goes for domestic water billing, and the water quality. Domestic water is €5,88 per m3 (1000 litres or tonne) in IRL - compared with about EUR 1 equivalent in Zurich.

This goes for postcodes, the eircode is completely at variance with European and international norms.

Half the household addresses almost have no road name or house number.

This goes for road signage.

This goes for public transport and transport network signage and ticketing and the integration of various modes of travel - eg mainline railway at airports etc.

The country has had numerous property tax systems - all of which involved new systems and spend on computers etc - NPPR, a temporary property tax, the current property tax - needless duplication of collection systems and infrastructure.

The non-system of health is a national disgrace - despite the fact that many doctors earn 2 or 3 x what doctors earn in mainland Europe. Not to mention the huge waste of money on non-medical "administrative" staff.

A motorway "system" without proper motorway service areas open 24/24h.

A mobile phone network that provides an acceptable quality of service.

Railway stations at airports with inter-city train connections.

I could go on and on, but would probably be accused of off-topicness etc. But it is not off topic. Because all these and more issues are caused by dysfunctional thinking and motivation in the "public service".

A lack of customer focus combined with a lack of precision and clarity and expectation that the system will perform to best international practice permiates virtually everything that Ireland Inc/AG/SA/NV/Corp does.

yuloni

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ukoda

yuloni wrote: »

But here's the thing. eircode is only useful for address validation. It's not even needed to post stuff to said address. Very few small / medium and even large companies would have or would need to purchase GeoDirectory. Why do Capita think that all of a sudden companies will start embracing what is merely GeoDirectory with a new column

So a few large corporates might buy the DB to validate addresses... but otherwise, it's of no use to anyone else

We'll see

yuloni

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ukoda

yuloni wrote: »

Liam Duggan of Capita said they were talking to Google - they have contract for over a year and they are only now talking to Google? This is all while the DPC are complaining about privacy. How could they possibly give code to Google unless they are negotiating terms for selling An Post routing keys only!

Also, Google never bought the entire GeoDircetory and neither did any satnav manufacturer

He never gave a timeline for when they spoke to google so you don't know, Google maps already identifies nearly every address in the country, there are no privacy issues here imo. And how do you know what service Google purchased from geo directory? Any source on that?

Impetus

yuloni wrote: »

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Eircode addresses are out of date and dumb. There is no need for the name of the county when one has a postcode system.

In Switzerland you don't use

Postfach 2345
Zuerich
Canton Zuerich
8022

The address is simplified and shortened

Postfash 2345
CH-8022 ZUERICH

The British have done their best to force countries to get their postal customers not to use the country code and instead put the name of the country.

This is because

1) The British system thinks everything beginning with CH is in Chester, and because the technology they use is 30 years old, it does not read the entire address and match it to a database of valid addresses.

2) In the rest of Europe the postcode appears in a standard position is before the name of the town. In GB the postcode can appear at random points within the address - presenting difficulty to the antiquated mechanised sorting system they use.

But even the antiquated "Royal Mail" has woken up to the fact that they do not need the name of a county in the address. It is implied within the postcode.

How dumb can a group of hackers get? Mr Capita / Mr €2mil consultant / Mr overpaid civil servant?

In GB the barcode on the envelope is postcode related. In the rest of Europe, the barcode is a serial number - which points to the fully validated address created at the starting point of the mail flow route. ie scanned and validated once in the first sorting office, and transmitted electronically to the destination sorting office be it in Athlone or Nice.

This Irish government is now allowing the British government in the form of Capita to impose British style addresses in the Eircode plan. If you live on the continent you will be aware that post from GB takes a day or two longer than post from other European countries - because the address has to through the address recognition process again when it arrives in France, Germany etc.

my3cents

Impetus wrote: »

Eircode addresses are out of date and dumb. There is no need for the name of the county when one has a postcode system.

In Switzerland you don't use

Postfach 2345
Zuerich
Canton Zuerich
8022

The address is simplified and shortened

Postfash 2345
CH-8022 ZUERICH

The British have done their best to force countries to get their postal customers not to use the country code and instead put the name of the country.

This is because

1) The British system thinks everything beginning with CH is in Chester, and because the technology they use is 30 years old, it does not read the entire address and match it to a database of valid addresses.

2) In the rest of Europe the postcode appears in a standard position is before the name of the town. In GB the postcode can appear at random points within the address - presenting difficulty to the antiquated mechanised sorting system they use.

But even the antiquated "Royal Mail" has woken up to the fact that they do not need the name of a county in the address. It is implied within the postcode.

How dumb can a group of hackers get? Mr Capita / Mr €2mil consultant / Mr overpaid civil servant?

In GB the barcode on the envelope is postcode related. In the rest of Europe, the barcode is a serial number - which points to the fully validated address created at the starting point of the mail flow route. ie scanned and validated once in the first sorting office, and transmitted electronically to the destination sorting office be it in Athlone or Nice.

This Irish government is now allowing the British government in the form of Capita to impose British style addresses in the Eircode plan. If you live on the continent you will be aware that post from GB takes a day or two longer than post from other European countries - because the address has to through the address recognition process again when it arrives in France, Germany etc.

Total rubbish. UK postcodes should be the last line of the address, if people don't put them their then its their fault if things take longer or go missing.

yuloni

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Impetus

The Eircode is:

· Needlessly complex. Successful systems are invariably kept simple. Especially something that requires mass adoption.

· Needlessly random – a postcode should be geographically logical. Whatever one is doing – loading a van, printing address labels, driving an ambulance, whatever. S/he who decided to randomize the last four characters of the Eircode is a plonker and idiot of the highest order.

· Despite the Eircode’s randomness, it provides a platform for massive breaches of security and personal privacy, especially on the internet and using payment card systems etc. eg “your first dog's name” for A22 7UGW will almost always be the same for everybody using that postcode.

· Makes logistics and delivery more time consuming and expensive.

· The Eircode is needlessly difficult for other people to use to communicate / do business with you / your company in the European and international space.

Impetus

my3cents wrote: »

Total rubbish. UK postcodes should be the last line of the address, if people don't put them their then its their fault if things take longer or go missing.

Where do you put the name of the country, whatever that is, if the postcode is on the last line?

They are all out of step aside from my Johnny Bull.

Impetus

yuloni wrote: »

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Basically one could sue Google et al if they put one's exclusive postcode on a map - and the government and Capita if they that allowed same to happen. I wouldn't want my name on a google map. What next - an estimated net worth for each named person on the map - Denis O'Brien, x billion, etc? No thanks.

ukoda

yuloni wrote: »

They certainly don't have rural addressing at any standard worth talking about

Yeah they do, to a far far higher degree of accuracy than sat nav maps, far better

It's doesn't need to be to the same standard as OSI, bare in mind that Google is using its search engine tech so even if you botch up the spelling it will more than likely find it, and even if you spell it correctly and Google had it incorrect...it'll still find it.
Google maps is by far the best everyday consumer usage maps for Ireland. By miles.