National Postcodes to be introduced

ukoda

Impetus wrote: »

Basically one could sue Google et al if they put one's exclusive postcode on a map - and the government and Capita if they that allowed same to happen. I wouldn't want my name on a google map. What next - an estimated net worth for each named person on the map - Denis O'Brien, x billion, etc? No thanks.

This is nonsense, my full unique exclusive address is in Google maps right now. Not an issue.

Impetus

ukoda wrote: »

This is nonsense, my full unique exclusive address is in Google maps right now. Not an issue.

Your house name might be there - but that is not necessarily exclusive to you. And it is not always in the same field area. Postcodes are. There will be other houses in different places with that house hame. But B72 U2YY will, if they get away with this crap, will be on every payment card bill, online shopping site, government site, whatever - and in most cases it is relatively easy to steal data and use the Eircode to join the tables and every hacker will have a massive amount of information about everybody who iives in that house.

yuloni

This post has been deleted.

ukoda

Impetus wrote: »

Your house name might be there - but that is not necessarily exclusive to you. And it is not always in the same field area. Postcodes are. There will be other houses in different places with that house hame. But B72 U2YY will, if they get away with this crap, will be on every payment card bill, online shopping site, government site, whatever - and in most cases it is relatively easy to steal data and use the Eircode to join the tables and every hacker will have a massive amount of info ormation about everybody who iives in that house.

My house has a number not a name and its exclusive to me. My address is already on every payment card online shopping site etc etc

A hacker doesn't need an eircode to join anything up, he hacks my online shopping, he gets my address, he does what he's going to do, it's irrelevant to him if there's an eircode on there or not

Really not a valid argument at all. Honestly there isn't even a bit of legitimate argument in what you're saying

ukoda

yuloni wrote: »

Just a pity one can't use Google Maps offline. Google Maps is nice when you're sitting at your desk planning your trip for the next day. However, come away from your desk and high-speed Internet connection and Google Maps becomes very irrelevant very quickly (the delivery driver lost on the mountainside)

Dramatic increase in smartphone usage reported recently
Dramatic decline in sat nav sales reported

Broadband and coverage are only going to get better

It's sat navs that are becoming irrelevant and in terms of future proofing, my monies on Google maps to be king in ten years and stand alone sat navs to be over in the nostalgia threads

I'm far more excited to have Google interested than garmin or Tom tom

http://m.wsj.com/article_email/SB10001424052702303650204579376143104222238-lMyQjAxMTA0MDIwNTEyNDUyWj


Basically Tom Tom are fu*ked

yuloni

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ukoda

yuloni wrote: »

You love talking about the future don't you

So come launch (which is meant to be next March, but now mid-2015)... you'd be happy if the release was as follows:

- Sorry navigators. You can't use eircode on your sat-nav as we didn't bother talking to TomTom of Garmin. Shure didn't ukoda say we needn't bother

- You can't use us on Google Maps as they don't work offline. But again, shure didn't ukoda say it'd be grand


If eircode was up and running successfully as the national system, then by all means they could make bold moves like cutting ties to sat-nav manufacturers. But they're not... and it's not 2024 yet

You've misread what i said, I said im much more excited about having it on google maps than sat navs. I never said don't put it on sat Navs, they should be talking to sat nav companies of course

The other point I made was that in the future it'll be smart phone navigation that will dominate. So when we do look to the future, I'm glad that Google are on board. That's all I'm saying

And people can of course use google maps, the very nature of Google maps means it IS online, which most people are. Unless there's an exception, which as I pointed out, will become less and less of a problem (and it's not even a big problem now)

Impetus

ukoda wrote: »

My house has a number not a name and its exclusive to me. My address is already on every payment card online shopping site etc etc

A hacker doesn't need an eircode to join anything up, he hacks my online shopping, he gets my address, he does what he's going to do, it's irrelevant to him if there's an eircode on there or not

Really not a valid argument at all. Honestly there isn't even a bit of legitimate argument in what you're saying

Your house number and street name are not necessarily consistently recorded in various databases. eg street or road abbreviated / mis-spelt etc. Your Eircode will be like a credit card number or email address. Unique to you/your home.

To make a database join, you need a precise and unique field. The only data element that matches that will be the Eircode.

On the "good" side of things, it will be useless for finding "rural" addresses to visit a premises. I have been using GPS devices and Glonass for about 20 years and one can't rely on them. In England most GPS devices only use the first part of the code + sometimes the sector - eg BS4 2. I don't believe that they will offer any more resolution in Ireland.

The Eircode is basically an account number for homes for the CSO. And the people responsible are too thick or couldn't give two cents for the utility of a well designed code and address system for the country. So long as their fat pension is paid ad infinitum.

Corrupt bureaucracy, out of control.

ukoda

Impetus wrote: »

Your house number and street name are not necessarily consistently recorded in various databases. eg street or road abbreviated / mis-spelt etc. Your Eircode will be like a credit card number or email address. Unique to you/your home.

To make a database join, you need a precise and unique field. The only data element that matches that will be the Eircode.

.

whats this about? i don't get it, I've already explained this isn't necessary for a hacker? whats your point here?

Dramatic decline in sat nav sales reported

I would simply put this down to market saturation, how many sat-navs do you need?

Impetus

ukoda wrote: »

whats this about? i don't get it, I've already explained this isn't necessary for a hacker? whats your point here?

Anybody doing a mass hacking exercise will have access to multiple databases which contain bits of your info. They will need a common denominator to join each record that relates to you. Nothing better than a unique postcode. It is better than a payment card number or email address because they can use it to "rape" everybody else who uses the same address. It is also very handy for entities engaged in extreme evil - eg certain government "intelligence" agencies. Hitler would have loved all the computer power we have today and unique postcodes - which Germany does not have - would be iceing on the cake for him.

Chain stores issue "loyalty" cards with unique numbers to moron clients - they up their prices by a percent or so, and give the money back to those who sign up.. Because they know the value of information. One could go on, but one doesn't want to be giving ideas to people...

clewbays

Impetus wrote: »

I pay over 250€ a year for a PO Box because I want to collect my mail and not have it lying for all to see as it builds up when I am not "at home" which is for most of the year.

I don't get it, you love the efficiency you see all around you abroad but when Ireland creates a World first you scorn it even though you are seldom at home?

[Mr. Eamonn Molloy] We have been told that the absence of a postcode in Ireland is creating issues around competitiveness because it is simply a more expensive country in which to do any type of logistics operation.

Give it time and other countries will follow Ireland's innovation. They may devise a different solution, with the same uniqueness outcome, if they don't have the problem of non-unique addresses to solve but the day of the 1950s postcode area is ending.

yuloni

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a65b2cd

Alex White (Dublin South, Labour)
A contract was signed with Capita Business Support Services Ireland Limited in December 2013 to develop and roll out the National Postcode System over a 10 year period. Total spend to date on that contract is €3.22 million. Aside from the contract with Capita, the table below includes all costs from 2010 to date associated with the National Postcode System.
Company........................................................Duration of Contract...........Cost (inc VAT)
PA Consulting (Project Management Services)......Sept 2010 – March 2014....€806,402
PA Consulting (Technical Advice)........................April 2014 – Date..............€135,578
Mason, Hayes & Curran (Legal advice).........2011 – 2014.....................€141,810
Process Auditor................................................2011 – 2014.....................€44,180
Total.................................................................................................... €1,127,970

yuloni

This post has been deleted.

ukoda

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I would simply put this down to market saturation, how many sat-navs do you need?

Have a look at the article I posted, the sat nav companies are losing market share to Google Maps/Apple Maps, all products have market saturation but don't see this kind of dramatic sales drops, you could say the same thing about any product, how many cars do you need?! How many washing machines do you need?! But sales remain constant due to upgrades etc. sat nav sales have dropped as consumers don't need / want them as stand alone devices anymore

Have a Google of "sat nav sales drop" or a similar search and you'll are countless articles about it

Here's another one from BBC showing a 76% drop in profits in one of their quarters

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-17190763

TomTom themselves are the ones who said its due to smartphones

ozmo

yuloni wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Offline is vital alright - and one of the main reasons I find Eircode so flawed

- Do the UK think we have 100% 3G and broadband coverage in Ireland?


ot - but heres how to put Google Maps Mobile app into offline mode if thats any use to you
http://www.cnet.com/how-to/how-to-use-google-maps-offline-on-ios-android/
(no search though - So I only use offline Navigon App myself - its great)

ukoda

ozmo wrote: »

Offline is vital alright - and one of the main reasons I find Eircode so flawed

- Do the UK think we have 100% 3G and broadband coverage in Ireland?


ot - but heres how to put Google Maps Mobile app into offline mode if thats any use to you
http://www.cnet.com/how-to/how-to-use-google-maps-offline-on-ios-android/
(no search though - So I only use offline Navigon App myself - its great)

Eircode can work offline, it can also work with sat navs, theres nothing stopping anyone building a free offline navigation map using eircode, if they strip down the database to eircode and geos only and use some compression they could build a reasonably sized offline navigation app no problem

my3cents

Another thought on what will drive Eirecode into general use is online buying. I can't imagine it will be long before PayPal enforce the use of Eirecode because it gives them more definite information about the users address. The same might happen with major online sellers why would they sell to someone who might have a non unique address when they can ask for an Eirecode to ensure that your address is unique and correct.

It doesn't matter if the couriers don't use the Eirecode the point is that the sender has done everything they can to ensure the address is correct and I don't see companies like Amazon ignoring that.

Sam Russell

But it is such a bad system. Random numbers and letters - and a huge routing part - that a good system does not make.

my3cents

Sam Russell wrote: »

But it is such a bad system. Random numbers and letters - and a huge routing part - that a good system does not make.

What difference does that make to the likes of PayPal and Amazon? Its a better way of validating the address for them.

Lo8 isn't a post code and Amazon don't send parcels to the top of mountains and PayPal don't have a lamp post at the side of the road paying for items on eBay so a postcode is useful for them.

ozmo

ukoda wrote: »

Eircode can work offline, it can also work with sat navs, theres nothing stopping anyone building a free offline navigation map using eircode, ..

Not according to the info they have put out so far.
Wont work with GPS on first release at launch they say - no mention from them if it will be ever be available offline for public use (they just keep saying you get a few free internet lookups a day); if you have info otherwise I'd be interested in a link to it?

They are probably wondering how they could possibly enforce developers to protect their database in an Android app - first app to ship with the Eircode database or portions of it - if they ever allow it - obfuscated or not - the database info will be extractable and public knowledge.

ukoda

ozmo wrote: »

Not according to the info they have put out so far.
Wont work with GPS on first release at launch they say - no mention from them if it will be ever be available offline for public use (they just keep saying you get a few free internet lookups a day); if you have info otherwise I'd be interested in a link to it?

They are probably wondering how they could possibly enforce developers to protect their database in an Android app - first app to ship with the Eircode database or portions of it - if they ever allow it - obfuscated or not - will be extractable and public knowledge.

I posted the full product guide a while ago in this thread, I obtained it from registering my interest on the eircode website, it will answer some of your questions, alto it's over 100 pages long

My understanding is that if you purchase the database you get the database as a 2.2gb file that you can download and store locally, so this does allow anyone to come up with an offline navigation app based on eircode

www.eircode.ie

When you purchase an annual licence to use the ECAF or ECAD from Eircode you will receive a complete edition of your chosen file at the point of purchase, followed by three quarterly update files. The files will be distributed electronically via our secure customer portal

It's not that it won't work with sat navs it's just they won't have implemented it by launch, which is surprising

Sam Russell

my3cents wrote: »

What difference does that make to the likes of PayPal and Amazon? Its a better way of validating the address for them.

Lo8 isn't a post code and Amazon don't send parcels to the top of mountains and PayPal don't have a lamp post at the side of the road paying for items on eBay so a postcode is useful for them.

You are missing the point I am making. It is a lot less than we should have. It misses nearly all the requirements for the postcode as specified. It will work as a postcode at some level, but it answers none of the requirements laid down for it. Look back through this thread for areas where it should - but does not - perform.

Why are we going with such a half-arsed system. Why can't we be more like the Swiss?

ozmo

ukoda wrote: »

My understanding is that if you purchase the database you get the database as a 2.2gb file that you can download and store locally, so this does allow anyone to come up with an offline navigation app based on eircode

Its not hard to store in an efficient format - that's just a developer task and an easy one at that - the only quote I can find from Eircode about offline GPS is that they were still looking at the "Licencing Model" for this (ie. how they get paid) - and I haven't seen any update on that statement other than there will be no GPS at launch.


Protecting the database file, should they allow it to be installed offline, is a whole other matter - Android especially is easily decompilable JAVA and no matter what encryption implemented, Im sure a hacker out there with enough intent, would be able extract the database (Capita's cash cow) from the apk file.

So expect a file with your Postcode and every Irish address, location (hopefully nothing else), to be out there and public knowledge in the near future.

ukoda

ozmo wrote: »

So expect a file with your Postcode and every Irish address, including yours, to appear on a torrent site near you in the near future.

This will happen with any code they use, my point was, if I was a business and I paid for the database I would have my copy of this database and there wouldn't be anything stopping me making an offline navigation app with eircode validation embedded into it, I'm making this point as you say it's no good for offline navigation and I'm saying it is if someone builds an offline navigation tool with it and this is entirely possible. As you say, eircode may have guidelines on encryption and standards, but that's another matter.

ozmo

ukoda wrote: »

This will happen with any code they use..

And if it wasnt so personally identifiable - It wouldnt concern me... but it is.

ukoda wrote: »

my point was, if ..I paid for the database .. there wouldn't be anything stopping me making an offline navigation app

dunno - up to their sales guys whatever restrictions they want impose - number of instances of the data, device type, internal lookup counter so you pay like a franking machine, who knows

ukoda wrote: »

with eircode validation embedded into it,

Have you Seen what they propose as a validation scheme - haha. Good luck implementing that!

ukoda

ozmo wrote: »

Have you Seen what they propose as a validation scheme - haha. Good luck implementing that!

Basically they want you to do, given an Postcode,is to look up the Address and try all combinations of the address and similar sounding roads and towns to see if the client could have meant a different postcode. Exactly what similar is, is not defined.
It reads like they tacked on some fluff to the docs at the last minute to try account for the missing checksum from the system.

I think you've misunderstood what they mean by address validation, it's not what you've described above, basically its when you type in an eircode on a website or on the database it will return the correct associated address, now what they've said is that the database will also store variations of the address and alias addresses, this is to do with validating in the oposite direction, i.e. You have the address and want the eircode, then you can reverse look up the eircode from the address and even if the address is a variation or alias it will still give you the correct (and only) eircode.

This is extremely useful for fraud prevention as some people will try apply for things with different variations of their address but now each one of those will only point to one eircode so the company knows it's the same address and can easily see if there's a previous account at this address

No one is asking anyone to go look up multiple variations of addresses, I'm not sure where you got that from

SpaceTime

Interesting, seems a lack of postal codes resulted in "Shipment arrived at incorrect facility. Sent to correct destination" on DHL.
An item that should have gone to Cork went to Dublin.

Seems a sorting system just saw "Ireland" so sent it to Dublin, even though the shortest route would have been direct to Cork via East midlands.

ukoda

SpaceTime wrote: »

Interesting, seems a lack of postal codes resulted in "Shipment arrived at incorrect facility. Sent to correct destination" on DHL.
An item that should have gone to Cork went to Dublin.

Seems a sorting system just saw "Ireland" so sent it to Dublin, even though the shortest route would have been direct to Cork via East midlands.

They dont always go the shortest route, they go where the volume is mostly, I've seen a package from China go >Dublin >Shannon >Cork with UPS (it had a lot more stops than that before it hit Ireland too!)