National Postcodes to be introduced

ukoda

Carawaystick wrote: »

Have you a source for this?

Is this recent?
Last time I bought motor insurance(in the autumn), it was cheaper for parts of Dublin without a postcode than with one.

http://www.riskheads.org/eu-rules-quoting-insurance-based-postcode-illegal-june/

plodder

ukoda wrote: »

No it's actually a major flaw as it discriminates against people based on their postcode which is why the EU have moved to ban basing insurance premiums on postcodes

Really? That would mean Irish insurers couldn't use address as a criterion for premiums because addresses and postcodes will be interchangeable. Do you have a link for that?

Carawaystick

ukoda wrote: »

http://www.riskheads.org/eu-rules-quoting-insurance-based-postcode-illegal-june/

Have you a law reference? like an EC regulation or directive or a SI

plodder

Carawaystick wrote: »

Have you a law reference? like an EC regulation or directive or a SI

April 1?

ukoda

plodder wrote: »

April 1?

Yeah

Carawaystick

Maybe this has been explained upthread, but what is the point of the ecaf? a non-unique list of postcodes and addresses.
Why would anyone pay for this? how would it help differentiate
John Doyle
Ballybeg,
Ballymore,
Co. Cork

from
Jim Doyle,
Ballybeg,
Ballymore,
Co Cork?

ukoda

Carawaystick wrote: »

Maybe this has been explained upthread, but what is the point of the ecaf? a non-unique list of postcodes and addresses.
Why would anyone pay for this? how would it help differentiate
John Doyle
Ballybeg,
Ballymore,
Co. Cork

from
Jim Doyle,
Ballybeg,
Ballymore,
Co Cork?

The ECAF has the eircode so that makes it unique? I'm not sure what you mean

The only real difference between ECAF and ECAD is that ECAD had alias addrsses so if you are doing a lot of look ups trying to find eircodes then it would be useful as you have a better chance of finding the eircode even if you have an unofficial address or vague address and it also has the geo co-ordinates

http://www.eircode.ie/business/products-and-services

a65b2cd

SpaceTime wrote: »

It could be a whole lot more useful simply by shifting the digits a bit further to the right i.e. making the routing code define a smaller area

The ECAD file will contain a small area code that groups households into homogenous groups of around 75 addresses. This could be useful for clustering deliveries without using the location coordinates.

Back to the Oireachtas tomorrow:
........ Irish Hotels Federation, Retail Excellence Ireland and the drinks industry group.

This group has not expressed its position so their attitude will be influential.

antoinolachtnai

ukoda wrote: »

Everything is future tense until launch. BUT I'm basing that on the product spec eircode released, so as it stands, it's a feature that will be available at launch per eircode.

The Product Guide has been withdrawn as far as I know.

ukoda

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The Product Guide has been withdrawn as far as I know.

how do you know that? have you a source?

antoinolachtnai

That is what DCENR tell me.

ukoda

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

That is what DCENR tell me.

thats a bit vague?? Well i signed up as a user of eircode and i received the product guide and no one has told me it was withdrawn, so i doubt this is true and you've nothing to back it up?

antoinolachtnai

I have backed it up. DCENR has told me this, in writing. I do not know if it is true, but the source appears good.

ukoda

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

I have backed it up. DCENR has told me this, in writing. I do not know if it is true, but the source appears good.

in what capacity have you asked? can i see the "in writing" bit? Like i said, I'm an end user of the product guide and i have not been told its withdrawn, so its pretty obviously not true, otherwise you want me to believe they have withdrawn it but not told the people they issued it to???

antoinolachtnai

I agree with you that it is very odd. I am also an end-user of this product and I have not been informed of any issue. I have emailed eircode, who previously sent a copy to me as they did to yourself. They have not replied to me.

I sent in an FOI request. I was refused the product guide on the basis that it was commercially confidential. The note on the schedule stated that it had been 'withdrawn from website'.

I will get this stuff scanned at some stage.

plodder

a65b2cd wrote: »

The ECAD file will contain a small area code that groups households into homogenous groups of around 75 addresses. This could be useful for clustering deliveries without using the location coordinates.

The small area code should have been built into the code as part of a hierarchical structire. The fact that it's the most obviously useful thing to have done, and that it was easy to implement, suggests a deliberate decision to not do it that way, and basically cripple the code's design.

Carawaystick

Carawaystick wrote: »

Maybe this has been explained upthread, but what is the point of the ecaf? a non-unique list of postcodes and addresses.
Why would anyone pay for this? how would it help differentiate
John Doyle
Ballybeg,
Ballymore,
Co. Cork

from
Jim Doyle,
Ballybeg,
Ballymore,
Co Cork?

Ok then
how does a file with just
John Doyle
Ballybeg,
Ballymore,
Co. Cork
A65 F4E4

from
Jim Doyle,
Ballybeg,
Ballymore,
Co Cork
A65 G5H5

help differentiate the address?
How do you know from the postcode which house is which?

Remind Me Tomorrow

plodder wrote: »

I'll explain what I'm talking about with an example: Say our pizza delivery guy has five orders to deliver to:

D04-XC12
D04-XC99
D04-PR98
D04-PR51
D04-TX74

With Eircodes these addresses could be anywhere in D04. If Eircode was structured hierarchically, he would know that the first two are in the same area. The second two are in the same area and the last one is somewhere else - all without needing to use a lookup service. He would also get to know where the various sub-areas are just by looking at them.

This information is hidden in Eircodes, which presumably is why the original postcode reports said they didn't want a "hidden" code.

I think its a fairly weak argument in this day and age that it should be possible to interpret without the use of technology. Should people carry around a colour coded card I their wallets? Your example is based on a UK style post code system designed in the 1960's. If they had a new post code system they would be using a look up service. In this day and age integration with technology is the main priority and can safely be taken as a given. Yes businesses will have to tweak their systems and make a small investment in technology. Give it 5 years, and assuming business start to use Eircodes, we'll have a decent, modern post code system. Remember a large percentage of Irish addresses would end up with their own post code were we to have a hierarchal system. I've no doubt there would be uproar and data protection issues over that. It would also be less than ideal when it comes to integrating with technology, which as I've said is the main priority here.

Also, you don't have to use the Eircode and I have no doubt many people will choose to opt out rather than change or have to memorize yet another code on top of the multitude of logins, passwords and pin numbers. It's there to use for people and businesses that choose to invest in it. If not, then it's as you were. I don't see the problem to be honest.

ukoda

Carawaystick wrote: »

Ok then
how does a file with just
John Doyle
Ballybeg,
Ballymore,
Co. Cork
A65 F4E4

from
Jim Doyle,
Ballybeg,
Ballymore,
Co Cork
A65 G5H5

help differentiate the address?
How do you know from the postcode which house is which?

based on the Geo Co-ordinates, so if you need this info youd be better off with the ECAD than the ECAF, if youre an end user, then google maps or your sat nav will know where to take you, youd get the code from the person you are visiting so the other code would never be relavent, youd prob never even know about it.

plodder

Remind Me Tomorrow wrote: »

I think its a fairly weak argument in this day and age that it should be possible to interpret without the use of technology. Should people carry around a colour coded card I their wallets? Your example is based on a UK style post code system designed in the 1960's. If they had a new post code system they would be using a look up service. In this day and age integration with technology is the main priority and can safely be taken as a given. Yes businesses will have to tweak their systems and make a small investment in technology. Give it 5 years, and assuming business start to use Eircodes, we'll have a decent, modern post code system. Remember a large percentage of Irish addresses would end up with their own post code were we to have a hierarchal system. I've no doubt there would be uproar and data protection issues over that. It would also be less than ideal when it comes to integrating with technology, which as I've said is the main priority here.

Also, you don't have to use the Eircode and I have no doubt many people will choose to opt out rather than change or have to memorize yet another code on top of the multitude of logins, passwords and pin numbers. It's there to use for people and businesses that choose to invest in it. If not, then it's as you were. I don't see the problem to be honest.

I heard a lot of the same stuff during the e-voting debate. 'In this day and age' we shouldn't still be using 'silly old pencils' and the like. It's a dangerous argument tbh.

Anyway, what I'm suggesting is not really changing Eircode at all. It would still be a seven character code with one unique code per property. It's only a different way of allocating the characters. They haven't allocated a single code yet and could still do it. So, what I don't understand is your objection to what I'm saying. What difference does it make to you?

Enduro

Remind Me Tomorrow wrote: »

Remember a large percentage of Irish addresses would end up with their own post code were we to have a hierarchal system. I've no doubt there would be uproar and data protection issues over that. It would also be less than ideal when it comes to integrating with technology, which as I've said is the main priority here.

Do you not realise that with Eircode exactly 100% of Irish addresses will end up with their own postcode (and unlike a hierarchical system there will be no useful way of avoiding that)? You're quite correct that there is likely to be uproar over the data protection issues that will plague eircode as a result.

ukoda

Enduro wrote: »

Do you not realise that with Eircode exactly 100% of Irish addresses will end up with their own postcode (and unlike a hierarchical system there will be no useful way of avoiding that)? You're quite correct that there is likely to be uproar over the data protection issues that will plague eircode as a result.

thats by design, thats what was wanted, Lets see what the Data Protection Office says in the end about their concerns, i believe they are unwarented as currently everyones address is available publicly online via google maps, i cant see how adding a code to that could fundementaly change anything.

Bray Head

Enduro wrote: »

Do you not realise that with Eircode exactly 100% of Irish addresses will end up with their own postcode (and unlike a hierarchical system there will be no useful way of avoiding that)? You're quite correct that there is likely to be uproar over the data protection issues that will plague eircode as a result.

I quite honestly don't follow this argument.

I have a unique address already. It can be written different ways but it cannot be confused with any other except by accident. My address can be looked up and referenced in the geodirectory which is available for a fee.

I will have a unique postcode next year. The exact same will be the case.

What will have changed from a data protection perspective? I am honestly stumped and would welcome some clarity by reference to data protection law (about which I have very little knowledge).

Bray Head

plodder wrote: »

The small area code should have been built into the code as part of a hierarchical structire (sic). The fact that it's the most obviously useful thing to have done, and that it was easy to implement, suggests a deliberate decision to not do it that way, and basically cripple the code's design.

Yes, it was deliberate. This was stated at an Oireachtas hearing. They said they did not want to create postcode ghettoes.

A hierarchical code would be preferable in theory. But there is a risk that people with particular postcodes would refuse to use them if they felt that doing so was devaluing their area, etc.

But very little is lost with the current design given that serious users will be using a technology solution and that this share will only increase with time.

plodder

Bray Head wrote: »

Yes, it was deliberate. This was stated at an Oireachtas hearing. They said they did not want to create postcode ghettoes.

A hierarchical code would be preferable in theory. But there is a risk that people with particular postcodes would refuse to use them if they felt that doing so was devaluing their area, etc.

Every other country in the world with a postcode has been able to deal with this problem. Why couldn't we? More important, why weren't the public asked about it? if given the choice between an area based system or random codes, I think people would have chosen the former, regardless of possible controversy over some areas.

Maybe, there will be some anyway with the routing keys, when people at the margins of one area decide they want to be in a different one. I don't think people realise yet, that the areas don't observe county boundaries. That could end up being an issue in rural parts.

ukoda

plodder wrote: »

Every other country in the world with a postcode has been able to deal with this problem. Why couldn't we? More important, why weren't the public asked about it? if given the choice between an area based system or random codes, I think people would have chosen the former, regardless of possible controversy over some areas.

Maybe, there will be some anyway with the routing keys, when people at the margins of one area decide they want to be in a different one. I don't think people realise yet, that the areas don't observe county boundaries. That could end up being an issue in rural parts.

Why would we create the same problem with our code and deal with it like the other countries when it can just be avoided??? The mind boggles at the spurious reasoning on this thread at times

Leonard Shelby

plodder wrote: »

I heard a lot of the same stuff during the e-voting debate. 'In this day and age' we shouldn't still be using 'silly old pencils' and the like. It's a dangerous argument tbh.

Anyway, what I'm suggesting is not really changing Eircode at all. It would still be a seven character code with one unique code per property. It's only a different way of allocating the characters. They haven't allocated a single code yet and could still do it. So, what I don't understand is your objection to what I'm saying. What difference does it make to you?

Final Eircode design was signed off months ago, An Post have been using it to test their sortation equipment. If you think there would be no issues introducing Dublin 4A TO 4Z you're living on another planet.

plodder

ukoda wrote: »

Why would we create the same problem with our code and deal with it like the other countries when it can just be avoided???

Because it really isn't that much of a problem. As I said, it's my belief that more people would prefer a hierarchical code anyway and it's not like the code is needed for delivering post in cities and towns. There are other probably other reasons why they don't want to do it, but my understanding is that this design emerged after the contract was awarded. Of course, people are going to design a code that causes them the least amount of hassle. We could have done better.

The mind boggles at the spurious reasoning on this thread at times

Spurious reasoning Beats googling an article and citing it as gospel, without even reading it first, or checking the date on it :rolleyes:

plodder

Leonard Shelby wrote: »

Final Eircode design was signed off months ago, An Post have been using it to test their sortation equipment.

Actually, what I'm suggesting is compatible with the existing design. It would make no difference to An Post's sortation equipment

If you think there would be no issues introducing Dublin 4A TO 4Z you're living on another planet.

Like I said, that's exactly the kind of thing that could have been tested out on the public, by asking them.

ukoda

plodder wrote: »

Because it really isn't that much of a problem. As I said, it's my belief that more people would prefer a hierarchical code anyway and it's not like the code is needed for delivering post in cities and towns. There are other probably other reasons why they don't want to do it, but my understanding is that this design emerged after the contract was awarded. Of course, people are going to design a code that causes them the least amount of hassle. We could have done better.

Spurious reasoning Beats googling an article and citing it as gospel, without even reading it first, or checking the date on it :rolleyes:

Touché