National Postcodes to be introduced

Sam Russell

Killmacow Co Kilkenny via Waterford.

my3cents

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

There is no need to change your address because a delivery office moves!

I know the delivery office has moved but to anyone who doesn't know the area they can and do start looking for our house 4 or more miles away from where the house is. I asked in the post office and they actually suggested putting the new delivery office down and thats over 20 miles away :rolleyes:

recedite

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

There is no need to change your address because a delivery office moves!

The High Court says you do.

Leonard Shelby

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Small areas don't change every five years. Even if a small area were subdivided, this wouldn't necessarily have an impact.

It does. Houses that are in one small area will be in another after the changes, it isn't a simple case of putting all of the new houses in a new small area.

But since you bring it up, what about the much bigger issue of when An Post postal towns are changed, as towns expand and new roads are put in?

Extremely unlikely to happen, new houses will simply be added to existing post towns.

For a fee, or under very restrictive conditions. The fee looks set to be far in excess of the fee in a similar country with a similar number of houses and a similar building-level code (which is hierarchical). Singapore charges 122 euros for this database. The plan here is to charge far far more.

Pricing will be similar to what you've outlined.

I can't see how they can complain about being in the 'wrong' small area.

I see 2 such cases in the UK in the last year, not 'constant examples'.

Talk to the Royal Mail, it is a major issue.

If grouping of houses is such an issue, then there is a much bigger problem with the higher level part of the code. According to the documentation, there are significant areas of Dublin where there is a postcode that is simply not known or used. Areas identified are The Ward, Baily, Howth, Portmarnock, Loughlinstown, Kilternan, Newcastle, Saggart and Rathcoole. The population of this area is vast.

There is also a vast area of Dublin that may expect to have a Dublin postcode, but won't. If public opinion about postcodes is really so important, these represent a much more significant scale of problem.

The routing key is what it is, it can't and won't be changed for any snobbery type reason.

The objection of the public will be much more general, i.e., that the system just makes very little sense in the light of well established administrative boundaries in Ireland. Any logic that applies to the first part of the code is inevitably contradicted in the second part.

When the public provide their postcode their address will be populated immediately and services will be delivered to their door. The public have no requirement for hierarchy.

An Post are to be contracted to deliver eircode 'items' to all homes. It is a matter for Capita and the Department to ensure that this id done to an adequate standard. I have asked them for their plan for doing this and they have no plan.

It sounds like you have different information. Could you please explain to us how An Post are going to deliver items with no addressee name given to 800,000 non-unique address, and to do this with an accuracy of 99.9999 percent, given that their more usual overall accuracy rate (including non-unique, and with a addressee name given) is more like 98.1 percent, and the regulator's target is only 99.5 percent?

Seriously, just because they haven't provided you with information doesn't mean they have no plan.

Is Ireland really so different from every single other country in the world, that it requires a completely different solution from all the others?

Since you asked, and it is not particularly relevant, London is the obvious example of a postcode originally introduced to deal with non-unique addresses.

Yes, Ireland really is different from every single other country in the world.

my3cents

recedite wrote: »

The High Court says you do.

Good link but not exactly the same thing. An Post would have to inform me if my address changed because of an operation change on their part. They haven't.

Banjoxed

There is a golden opportunity to change Dublin 6W back to its originally intended Dublin 26, but will the opportunity be taken? Probably not!

Sam Russell

The Irish Government have never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity.*




*That was said about Assa Arafat by Abba Eban, Israeli Foreign Minister, but applies to nearly every Irish Government initiative to 'improve' things, like eVoting, PayPars, you name it.

a65b2cd

Interesting report in Irish Examiner of a survey of business opinion of Eircodes. Eircodes are not very relevant for a lot of companies, e.g. a newsagent or an accountant, so if you remove the not relevant and the don't knows then 9 out of every 10 businesses see benefits which is an incredibly high level of support.

“Eircodes will lead to strategic benefits to business by delivering new opportunities and efficiencies such as simplified compliance obligations, easier data quality management, sales and marketing planning, optimisation of product delivery, improved data analytics, better risk management and fraud prevention."

Sam Russell

a65b2cd wrote: »

Interesting report in Irish Examiner of a survey of business opinion of Eircodes. Eircodes are not very relevant for a lot of companies, e.g. a newsagent or an accountant, so if you remove the not relevant and the don't knows then 9 out of every 10 businesses see benefits which is an incredibly high level of support.

If you remove the rest who are not Capita, then you will have ten out of ten. Fantastic way of massaging statistics.

antoinolachtnai

Leonard Shelby wrote: »

It does. Houses that are in one small area will be in another after the changes, it isn't a simple case of putting all of the new houses in a new small area.

What changes? A boundary of a Small Area will not change. It just will not happen. There is no reason why it would happen. (A small area might be split, but that is a completely different case.)

Extremely unlikely to happen, new houses will simply be added to existing post towns.

So the boundary of the post town would only move in relation to new builds, but old builds would keep their existing post town (and corresponding code)? That would result in non-contiguous districts.

Pricing will be similar to what you've outlined.

How do you know this? If this is the case, the revenue will only be a few hundred thousand euros per year after the first year.

Talk to the Royal Mail, it is a major issue.

Just because they get a few letters about it, doesn't mean it is a major issue. There is the odd hubbub in Ireland about postal towns, but it doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the concept of a postal town.

The routing key is what it is, it can't and won't be changed for any snobbery type reason.

As usual, the logic turns a full u-turn between the first part and the second part of the eircode. Exactly the same is true of the small area. The CSO and OSi aren't going to change it for any snobbery type reasons.

Seriously, just because they haven't provided you with information doesn't mean they have no plan.

Then how come this massive, fundamental issue isn't even mentioned in the design documentation?

SpaceTime

Is the post code being designed by Hyacinth Bucket or something?

Leonard Shelby

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

What changes? A boundary of a Small Area will not change. It just will not happen. There is no reason why it would happen. (A small area might be split, but that is a completely different case.)

You obviously have no experience of ED changes that occurred after every Census. You're simply wrong, go talk to Ordnance Survey and CSO.

So the boundary of the post town would only move in relation to new builds, but old builds would keep their existing post town (and corresponding code)? That would result in non-contiguous districts.

There are no boundaries, properties are simply assigned to a postal route delivered from a post town, any boundary is notional, your non-contiguous concern doesn't make any sense.

Then how come this massive, fundamental issue isn't even mentioned in the design documentation?

You'll have to ask An Post how they plan to do that, I really can't see how it will be too difficult for them.

antoinolachtnai

Leonard Shelby wrote: »

You obviously have no experience of ED changes that occurred after every Census. You're simply wrong, go talk to Ordnance Survey and CSO.

What changes? Have you any documentation on this?

Are you talking about the Electoral Commission?

There are no boundaries, properties are simply assigned to a postal route delivered from a post town, any boundary is notional, your non-contiguous concern doesn't make any sense.

So all the houses with the same routing code won't necessarily be located together. This will be terribly confusing and messy.

You'll have to ask An Post how they plan to do that, I really can't see how it will be too difficult for them.

Seeing that they can't even meet the 99.5 percent target for fully addressed mail, it is hard to see how they can reach 99.9999 percent for partly addressed mail, which is what the 'postcode notification item' will be.

Sheldons Brain

There are no boundaries, properties are simply assigned to a postal route delivered from a post town, any boundary is notional, your non-contiguous concern doesn't make any sense.

Any boundary is notional, but does not change very much other than perhaps in the suburban fringe, although there would have been some amalgamations.

plodder

Leonard Shelby wrote: »

You obviously have no experience of ED changes that occurred after every Census. You're simply wrong, go talk to Ordnance Survey and CSO.

That's not right either. EDs can change easily by moving small areas from one ED to another but without changing the boundaries of the small areas themselves. And since there isn't any correlation between ED and postcode required, nobody's postcode would need to change.

Small areas weren't necessarily envisaged for this purpose, though they were designed to align with EDs. So, it is definitely possible. It's a shocking shame that this wasn't considered at least. The job of redrawing electoral boundaries would be a lot easier if that too were based on the same set of small areas that are used for statistical purposes and postcodes.

Sam Russell

It will be interesting to see if postal items posted simply with an Eircode get delivered come its introduction.

No name just A05 ABCD

I think that will be a real test for the postman - he will need a copy of the database in his pocket, and be continuously referring to it to it as he pushes his overloaded bike along the road. Oh what fun!

ukoda

Sam Russell wrote: »

It will be interesting to see if postal items posted simply with an Eircode get delivered come its introduction.

No name just A05 ABCD

I think that will be a real test for the postman - he will need a copy of the database in his pocket, and be continuously referring to it to it as he pushes his overloaded bike along the road. Oh what fun!

Well it's designed to be used in addition to a postal addrss and not as a replacement so hopefully people won't start doing that.

But perhaps An Post may now look at introducing handheld devices that have the route and delivery locations loaded on them (or accessed via 3/4G)

It would do wonders for delivery tracking of letters but I doubt they'd invest in it as the return wouldn't justify it

Sam Russell

Sam Russell wrote: »

It will be interesting to see if postal items posted simply with an Eircode get delivered come its introduction.

No name just A05 ABCD

I think that will be a real test for the postman - he will need a copy of the database in his pocket, and be continuously referring to it to it as he pushes his overloaded bike along the road. Oh what fun!

I did this experiment in the UK (Postcode plus the house number) and the local sorting office added in the street name before delivery. ( delivery time about the same)
Here they would need to add in the name and townland/street for the postman, well the whole address apart from the town.

Sam Russell

ukoda wrote: »

Well it's designed to be used in addition to a postal addrss and not as a replacement so hopefully people won't start doing that.

But perhaps An Post may now look at introducing handheld devices that have the route and delivery locations loaded on them (or accessed via 3/4G)

It would do wonders for delivery tracking of letters but I doubt they'd invest in it as the return wouldn't justify it

Well, that response just goes to prove what a crock this Eircode is - worthless.

It is clearly of no use to anyone - not even the postal service.

ukoda

Sam Russell wrote: »

Well, that response just goes to prove what a crock this Eircode is - worthless.

It is clearly of no use to anyone - not even the postal service.

They seem to disagree as they have said they will see efficiencies from it. In terms of sorting and organising mail and they support it fully.

But sur im sure you know more about An Post than they do themselves

What's your idea of a good postcode? Replace the entire countries addresses with just a code? What a ridiculous argument to make.

Sam Russell

ukoda wrote: »

They seem to disagree as they have said they will see efficiencies from it. In terms of sorting and organising mail and they support it fully.

But sur im sure you know more about An Post than they do themselves

What's your idea of a good postcode? Replace the entire countries addresses with just a code? What a ridiculous argument to make.

I thought that is what Eircode was trying to do. Clearly not - as everyone who uses it needs a computer with internet access in their pocket to use it.

I think Eircode is an awful design that misses the whole point of a post code. It might work with automatic sorting machines, but how does postie manage?

It is useless for folks finding addresses without a computer with internet access in their pocket. Added that because it uses alpha-numeric instead of numeric, it makes it less robust - and random codes is just daft.

Saying everyone has a smart phone is just not the case, nor is everywhere blessed with the coverage required.

ukoda

Sam Russell wrote: »

I thought that is what Eircode was trying to do. Clearly not - as everyone who uses it needs a computer with internet access in their pocket to use it.

I think Eircode is an awful design that misses the whole point of a post code. It might work with automatic sorting machines, but how does postie manage?

It is useless for folks finding addresses without a computer with internet access in their pocket. Added that because it uses alpha-numeric instead of numeric, it makes it less robust - and random codes is just daft.

Saying everyone has a smart phone is just not the case, nor is everywhere blessed with the coverage required.

It was never anyone's intention to replace addresses in Ireland with codes? Where did you get that from?

And look we've been over this internet argument and it's been shown that ericodes entire database will fit easily on smart phones or sat navs which are the main forms navigation assistance

All codes are useless for navigation without some form of device to help you navigate to it. How would loc8 or other codes help the postman without a device??? Yeah he might know the house he's looking for is west of the last house he was at but that's useless to him

We have already been over the internet connection argument and I'm sorry but it IS valid to say that smart phone adoption in Ireland is HUGE and growing rapidly and so is the quality of cellular coverage. And even with dropped signals most modern smart phones are able to continue to navigate using its Gps chip, so even if cell tower data drops in and out it will still get you there. I've seen this on Google maps app a lot

Impetus

Sam Russell wrote: »

I thought that is what Eircode was trying to do. Clearly not - as everyone who uses it needs a computer with internet access in their pocket to use it.

I think Eircode is an awful design that misses the whole point of a post code. It might work with automatic sorting machines, but how does postie manage?

It is useless for folks finding addresses without a computer with internet access in their pocket. Added that because it uses alpha-numeric instead of numeric, it makes it less robust - and random codes is just daft.

Saying everyone has a smart phone is just not the case, nor is everywhere blessed with the coverage required.

Absolutely. Eircode is just a fraud postcode. No other country on the planet has a postcode that points to a single dwelling, aside from one dictatorship in the Middle East. It is no more than a PPSN for every home building (house, apartment, office etc). eg if payment card (eg Visa/MC/AX) data for Mr x is stolen/hacked, including the Eircode, this puts everybody else living in the same house at risk of copy cat replication to fill in the blanks for fraudsters.

You don't have to write your PPSN as part of your identity/address on envelopes or when ordering online etc.

Mobile phone coverage, especially data, is pathetic, especially in rural areas - the same locations that don't have a street address and house number. Eircode is not a solution for addressing / pinpointing rural addresses.

Government should be a service to citizens and residents - and its purpose should be to make the country efficient. Successive governments have failed in this regard. The postcode is a carryover from previous governments.

The idea of randomising postcodes is totally stupidly clueless. People in urban areas have had sequential house numbers since cities developed. Why should postcodes have to be encrypted?

The Eircode has been designed for the CSO and a few other government agencies - with no regard for the public or business needs.

While I have no problem paying a reasonable price for the water I consume (eg approx EUR 1 per m2 as in Zurich) (not EUR 5.88 as per water.ie), the political idiots are proposing to pay about 600 million EUR for water meters + installation costs, + first fix repair costs for a metering system that will not operational for about five years. One winter freeze and 20% of those meters will need to be replaced. Who will pay for that?

Off-topic maybe. But it shows the trend. Dysfunctional government driven by a clueless permanent government. Zero commitment to customer service for the public.

ukoda

Impetus wrote: »

It is no more than a PPSN for every home building (house, apartment, office etc). eg if payment card (eg Visa/MC/AX) data for Mr x is stolen/hacked, including the Eircode, this puts everybody else living in the same house at risk of copy cat replication to fill in the blanks for fraudsters.

Em yeah. It's great the way fraudsters ignore adress data at the moment... If my payment card data is stolen now they will take my address. Having an eircode at the end of it or not makes F all difference to anything. Eircode adds no extra risk here.

If you want to talk about fraud tho....there's lots of ways eircode will help prevent fraud in the banking and insurance sector, you know, a help to businesses....you wanted to see that didn't you? your argument is full of outrageous nonsense

Sam Russell

ukoda wrote: »

Em yeah. It's great the way fraudsters ignore adress data at the moment... If my payment card data is stolen now they will take my address. Having an eircode at the end of it or not makes F all difference to anything. Eircode adds no extra risk here.

Well, having someone's Eircode gives an excellent key into all databases, almost as good as the PPS number. People did not want to give Irish Water their PPS number for a very good reason, and I think that once people realise how powerful an Eircode will be, they will be reluctant to use the Eircode for the very same reason.

my3cents

Sam Russell wrote: »

Well, having someone's Eircode gives an excellent key into all databases, almost as good as the PPS number. People did not want to give Irish Water their PPS number for a very good reason, and I think that once people realise how powerful an Eircode will be, they will be reluctant to use the Eircode for the very same reason.

If you want a name and an address look in the phone book :rolleyes:

What difference is an Eircode going to make?

ukoda

Sam Russell wrote: »

Well, having someone's Eircode gives an excellent key into all databases, almost as good as the PPS number. People did not want to give Irish Water their PPS number for a very good reason, and I think that once people realise how powerful an Eircode will be, they will be reluctant to use the Eircode for the very same reason.

PPS number is entirely different. Did you hear anyone refuse to give their address to Irish water? Nope because the assumption was it wasn't personal or something to protect, in fact no one cared they had everyone's address. eircode is a persons addresses and no one makes a fuss about giving their address to anyone.

antoinolachtnai

Sure they do. They don't casually give out their address. They only give a full address when there is some specific need to do so. These aren't the cases where there is a big issue.

The problem is the 'middle' cases where you might give your locality, but you wouldn't give your full address.

Most postcodes give an option to give your locality without giving your full address. Ireland's is unique in that it does not.

ukoda

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Sure they do. They don't casually give out their address. They only give a full address when there is some specific need to do so. These aren't the cases where there is a big issue.

The problem is the 'middle' cases where you might give your locality, but you wouldn't give your full address.

Most postcodes give an option to give your locality without giving your full address. Ireland's is unique in that it does not.

You can still give your locality. No one had removed that option

Bray Head

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The problem is the 'middle' cases where you might give your locality, but you wouldn't give your full address.

Most postcodes give an option to give your locality without giving your full address. Ireland's is unique in that it does not.

Addressing in Ireland is a highly subjective exercise and is in many ways reflective of where people think they live rather than by reference to any index or line on a map. Giving a locality may be useful for casual conversation but in many cases it is not useful in any objective sense. Some people include a nearby main road, some give a local area and some don't. In Dublin some give a postal district only on top of their street and house number. It differs hugely from place to place and person to person. It's certainly not reliable or useful for anyone providing you with a sophisticated service like a utility or insurance company. At the moment the only reliable, discrete parts of the address system as it is used are county boundaries and Dublin postal districts. But even in the latter there are errors in signage and usage all over the place. I contend that the address system as it stands in Ireland is semi-hierarchical at best.

What eircode is doing is layering a non-hierarchical system (after the first 3 digits) on top of a semi-hierarchical system. So in this sense there is not much change.

I've said before there is merit in non-sequentiality this given the objective of not creating postcode ghettos but obviously there is not agreement on this point on this thread and won't be.