National Postcodes to be introduced

a65b2cd

yuloni wrote: »

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2013 is a new reg! ... that helps me to understand your position a lot more and your support for the 1950s postcodes model, sure, you know, the 1950s are really rather recent.

I live in 2015. A recent survey published in the Irish Examiner showed that 9 out of every 10 persons who will be affected by postcodes said they would have a positive impact so you and a small few other old accounts may not have the support you presume.

Don't worry I won't be upset if you devote more time to your other threads.

Leonard Shelby

Happy New Year!
Here are my predictions for 2015

1. January to April
Anti-Eircode commentary will revolve around "it isn't going to happen"
2. May to June
Commentary will change to "it might be happening, but it won't work"
3. July to November
Commentary will change to "here is a list of companies who aren't using it yet, proof that it is a failure"
4. December
Anti-Eircode commentary can't compete with obvious signs of Eircode success and their noise drifts into the background as the sound of "Give a Garmin, NOW WITH EIRCODES" dominates the Christmas airwaves

yuloni

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yuloni

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ukoda

Leonard Shelby wrote: »

Happy New Year!
Here are my predictions for 2015

1. January to April
Anti-Eircode commentary will revolve around "it isn't going to happen"
2. May to June
Commentary will change to "it might be happening, but it won't work"
3. July to November
Commentary will change to "here is a list of companies who aren't using it yet, proof that it is a failure"
4. December
Anti-Eircode commentary can't compete with obvious signs of Eircode success and their noise drifts into the background as the sound of "Give a Garmin, NOW WITH EIRCODES" dominates the Christmas airwaves

This.

exactly this will happen, the arguments against eircode keep shifting as things get debunked

• First was the tender, this has died down now
• Then it was An Post and NAS (and others) wont need or use it, now both confirmed they will and support it
• Then its useless for delivery companies, Now Nightline has completely exposed that as bulls*it
• Then its database is too big for sat navs - thats been shown to be not true with figures posted here, and we now have heard Google Maps are in with eircode (which is no surprise as they want every last bit of data they can get) and its pretty much a given that sat navs will use it)
• Then it was too expensive (people making wild claims of 5k, the recent oireachtas reports show thats not any where near correct, with figures of 200 being more likely)
• Now we are back to the debate that it should be more hierarchical, which is being rehashed over and over again with pros and cons of each being debated. well guess what lads. Its NOT hierarchical to the level some of you want it to be and thats not going to change.

The anti eircode people have a lovely little 'bubble of hate' here on this thread, but back in the real world eircodes launch is being planned and to my knowledge that is under no threat or will not be subjected to any changes. so maybe you should get over it, it is what it is, endless arguing here isn't going to change that.

ukoda

and if you really think eircode is so awful...why don't you get out from behind your keyboard and protest it, seriously, if you think everyone is against it and no one will use it why don't you all get together and stage a protest outside the dail?

we've so many keyboard warriors on here and i bet not one of you have done a damn thing about it in real life. I'd love to see some of you try to organise a protest and you'd quickly realise no one in the public gives a f**k about the things you are harping on about in here. The people were promised a postcode and this year they'll get one. thats the extent of it.

antoinolachtnai

I am really concerned about the attempt to shut down debate here.

I notice that a lot of it is coming from usernames that have never posted on any other topic. One of them comes from a username that is clearly a sample eircode postcode. These usernames might not be new. They were established in October 2013, within 14 days of one another, and around the date on which the award of a tender was announced. Given their apparent origins, there is an extraordinary arrogance and sense of entitlement in their tone.

As it stands, there are big questions to answer here.

Why was there no independent checking of the postcode concept? The firm that carried out this work, whilst an excellent firm in many ways, was very much one of the designers of the whole concept and were involved in most of the steps. In particular they were involved in the design of the tendering process.

Why is the eircode being advertised as a general purpose location code, when it was designed as a standard post-only postcode?

Why was there no meaningful consultation? Why was an approach taken that flies so much in the face of international practice, but with only 5 or 6 pages of text by justification for this decision, with no public consultation whatsoever?

Will this actually work? i.e., is there any way to actually inform these codes to individual homes with the high level of accuracy required? One of the eircode 'proponents' put forward a sort of concept for how this would be done. The approach would require a complex 'hack' of the An Post mail sorting systems, which might or might not work. Even if the technical part did work, it wouldn't give very good accuracy, because it is based on what can only politely be described as a Dublin-centric idea of how mail is actually delivered in practice. And there is no provision for checking that the right postcode notification items actually went to the right houses, or even whether they were delivered at all. This can be resolved through special handling of course, but this will cost millions of euros beyond what is budgeted.

What about intellectual property? There is a lot of contradictory information floating around. It all hinges around what IPR is going to be claimed, what the licensing structure will be, and who will have the right to enforce that. A poster here is claiming that only the Irish government will have this right, but this seems like disinformation.

But we really need to know the detail here. The government is keeping the 804 page contract that grants Capita a 15 year monopoly a secret, for no clear reason (There is no commercial sensitivity in relation to services for which there are no competitors and for which the tenders are all finished.)

Why were the concerns of the Data Protection Commissioner simply ignored?

These are big problems. This has turned into a fairly big-ticket project (much bigger than is really merited). There has to be accountability for what is going on. The whole thing has been locked up so there is very little accountability.

ukoda

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

I am really concerned about the attempt to shut down debate here.

I notice that a lot of it is coming from usernames that have never posted on any other topic. One of them comes from a username that is clearly a sample eircode postcode. These usernames might not be new. They were established in October 2013, within 14 days of one another, and around the date on which the award of a tender was announced. Given their apparent origins, there is an extraordinary arrogance and sense of entitlement in their tone.

As it stands, there are big questions to answer here.

Why was there no independent checking of the postcode concept? The firm that carried out this work, whilst an excellent firm in many ways, was very much one of the designers of the whole concept and were involved in most of the steps. In particular they were involved in the design of the tendering process.

Why is the eircode being advertised as a general purpose location code, when it was designed as a standard post-only postcode?

Why was there no meaningful consultation? Why was an approach taken that flies so much in the face of international practice, but with only 5 or 6 pages of text by justification for this decision, with no public consultation whatsoever?

Will this actually work? i.e., is there any way to actually inform these codes to individual homes with the high level of accuracy required? One of the eircode 'proponents' put forward a sort of concept for how this would be done. The approach would require a complex 'hack' of the An Post mail sorting systems, which might or might not work. Even if the technical part did work, it wouldn't give very good accuracy, because it is based on what can only politely be described as a Dublin-centric idea of how mail is actually delivered in practice. And there is no provision for checking that the right postcode notification items actually went to the right houses, or even whether they were delivered at all. This can be resolved through special handling of course, but this will cost millions of euros beyond what is budgeted.

What about intellectual property? There is a lot of contradictory information floating around. It all hinges around what IPR is going to be claimed, what the licensing structure will be, and who will have the right to enforce that. A poster here is claiming that only the Irish government will have this right, but this seems like disinformation.

But we really need to know the detail here. The government is keeping the 804 page contract that grants Capita a 15 year monopoly a secret, for no clear reason (There is no commercial sensitivity in relation to services for which there are no competitors and for which the tenders are all finished.)

Why were the concerns of the Data Protection Commissioner simply ignored?

These are big problems. This has turned into a fairly big-ticket project (much bigger than is really merited). There has to be accountability for what is going on. The whole thing has been locked up so there is very little accountability.

I've been around since 2008 on here and post in other threads. I'm just sick of people like you flogging a dead horse. The time for debate is over. Every party has had their day in the oireachtas and repeatedly asking the same old stuff over and over again on an Internet forum is of absolutely no use to anyone.

What are you hoping to achieve with your debate? This isn't the dail. This isn't the oireachtas. This isn't an open letter to eircode. This isn't a government feedback forum. This is an Internet thread that's full of dragged out arguments against a design that's already been signed off and it's becoming tiresome

antoinolachtnai

What are you trying to achieve? To shut down debate?

ukoda

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

What are you trying to achieve? To shut down debate?

Why don't you answer me first

Leonard Shelby

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Will this actually work? i.e., is there any way to actually inform these codes to individual homes with the high level of accuracy required? One of the eircode 'proponents' put forward a sort of concept for how this would be done. The approach would require a complex 'hack' of the An Post mail sorting systems, which might or might not work. Even if the technical part did work, it wouldn't give very good accuracy, because it is based on what can only politely be described as a Dublin-centric idea of how mail is actually delivered in practice. And there is no provision for checking that the right postcode notification items actually went to the right houses, or even whether they were delivered at all. This can be resolved through special handling of course, but this will cost millions of euros beyond what is budgeted.

Oh dear God. I knew you didn't understand much about how postal routes are organised and post delivered but I didn't think it extended this far. Honestly, for your own sake, stop posting about this issue until you've read An Post's plan, you lose credibility with each post. What you have written is complete and utter nonsense.

Impetus

ukoda wrote: »

You can still give your locality. No one had removed that option

If it is a state (or private) monopoly, they can force you to provide your Eircode or you don't receive service. The Eircode will be great for black hat hackers after your money. If they hack a database with your Eircode, they can use it as a base for additional hacking - putting together the names and addresses and payment card details etc of everybody in the same household. Gather a little bit of data here and a little there, using the Eircode to join everything up. Build a profile of the entire house, and rape and pillage their bank accounts and credit cards.

No other county is so dumb as to assign a unique code to each household.

Those responsible, including the Minister might want to check their negligence liability insurance policy to make sure they are covered for personal legal liability risks for such negligence and incompetence.

ukoda

Impetus wrote: »

If it is a state (or private) monopoly, they can force you to provide your Eircode or you don't receive service. The Eircode will be great for black hat hackers after your money. If they hack a database with your Eircode, they can use it as a base for additional hacking - putting together the names and addresses and payment card details etc of everybody in the same household. Gather a little bit of data here and a little there, using the Eircode to join everything up. Build a profile of the entire house, and rape and pillage their bank accounts and credit cards.

No other county is so dumb as to assign a unique code to each household.

Those responsible, including the Minister might want to check their negligence liability insurance policy to make sure they are covered for personal legal liability risks for such negligence and incompetence.

I don't think you understand how hacking works. i can't stress enough that is total nonsense. Like its absolutely ridiculous. You have zero understanding of how fraud scamming works if you think this is a credible argument against eircode.

This is how hacking works:
Pick target database
Hack target system
Take all payment card data and personal information.
Use said data to try clear out as many credit cards or bank accounts from the database as possible


Are you utterly demented in thinking a hacker is going to start cross referencing eircodes and saying hmmm these 2 customers are at the same address...interesting bit of info...but how can this in anyway be of any interest to me?????!! How EXACTLY Can they now rape and pillage everyone with that eircode? They either already have everyone's card details from that house if they were in the same database so eircode is no extra risk, if they don't have everyone's card details from the database they just hacked... How is them having my eircode going to get them anywhere near anything from other people living at that address??? Just how???

Impetus

ukoda wrote: »

I don't think you understand how hacking works. i can't stress enough that is total nonsense. Like its absolutely ridiculous. You have zero understanding of how fraud scamming works if you think this is a credible argument against eircode.

This is how hacking works:
Pick target database
Hack target system
Take all payment card data and personal information.
Use said data to try clear out as many credit cards or bank accounts from the database as possible


Are you utterly demented in thinking a hacker is going to start cross referencing eircodes and saying hmmm these 2 customers are at the same address...interesting bit of info...but how can this in anyway be of any interest to me?????!! How EXACTLY Can they now rape and pillage everyone with that eircode? They either already have everyone's card details from that house if they were in the same database so eircode is no extra risk, if they don't have everyone's card details from the database they just hacked... How is them having my eircode going to get them anywhere near anything from other people living at that address??? Just how???

With all due respect you are missing the point. Using a single unique identifier, such as Eircode, data purchased or otherwise obtained by the hacking community can be sorted in Eircode order to merge data stolen from multiple sources – putting the bits of the jigsaw together.

One doesn’t see that problem up to now because no country has a single household identifier which is included in virtually everything. The hacker mentality is always looking for “fresh meat” to manipulate, and Eircode will give them the glue to bind things together. The more information one has, the easier it becomes to social engineer one’s way into a system. Getting people to click on email links is one example – the more tailored the email is to the victim’s specific life, the higher the chance of a click through. Another computer gets owned and a software keyboard logger is installed. It is down to the imagination and creativity of the hacker. It is naive to assume that the Eircode will not present additonal security risks to the public.

The Eircode is also probably in breach of EU data privacy directives, because it is not essential for any purpose (eg sorting the mail, issuing credit cards, providing logistics services etc).

yuloni

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ukoda

Impetus wrote: »

With all due respect you are missing the point. Using a single unique identifier, such as Eircode, data purchased or otherwise obtained by the hacking community can be sorted in Eircode order to merge data stolen from multiple sources – putting the bits of the jigsaw together.

One doesn’t see that problem up to now because no country has a single household identifier which is included in virtually everything. The hacker mentality is always looking for “fresh meat” to manipulate, and Eircode will give them the glue to bind things together. The more information one has, the easier it becomes to social engineer one’s way into a system. Getting people to click on email links is one example – the more tailored the email is to the victim’s specific life, the higher the chance of a click through. Another computer gets owned and a software keyboard logger is installed. It is down to the imagination and creativity of the hacker. It is naive to assume that the Eircode will not present additonal security risks to the public.

The Eircode is also probably in breach of EU data privacy directives, because it is not essential for any purpose (eg sorting the mail, issuing credit cards, providing logistics services etc).

What jigsaw are you talking about? You're talking rings around something and making no real example of the additional risk from eircode?
If they steal my data now and tailor an email with my address in it, it's not going to make a difference to me if it had an eircode on it or not, use my address and send me phishing email or use my eircode and send me a phishing email. How has eircode added risk? You've given absolutely nothing to show your claims are valid

ukoda

yuloni wrote: »

ukoda, you're either getting upset or worried... which is it?

This is a public forum where, so long as the thread stays open, we're all perfectly entitled to debate and question various aspects of the project. While there are weak arguments and misinformation from all sides occasionally, the mood has shifted lately where it seems we can no longer question eircode without feeling the wrath of what would seem like a PR machine in damage control mode. There's also a new sense that some recent posters know more than they're letting on

you spend more time discussing me than you do the project.

yuloni

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Ben D Bus

Right, I'm right this minute trying to order from Dominos. My address is not in their flipping directory. 3 other apartments in my block are.

Fourstar does not recognise my address.

I'm hungry and I want a flipping postcode right now.

yuloni

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antoinolachtnai

Leonard Shelby wrote: »

Oh dear God. I knew you didn't understand much about how postal routes are organised and post delivered but I didn't think it extended this far.

Great, let's hear your credentials, and who your employer is, so that we can benefit fully from your expertise and our minds can be set at ease.

Honestly, for your own sake, stop posting about this issue until you've read An Post's plan

Can you supply a copy of this?

, you lose credibility with each post. What you have written is complete and utter nonsense.

The issue isn't how mail delivery works, it's the postal operational model. It isn't a high-accuracy model.

Geodirectory (as is illustrated in recent comments) has related problems. It just isn't that accurate. How accurate is it? I don't know, but it isn't 6-nines, and I don't think it is even 99.5 percent.

Some people are very happy to shut down debate while hiding behind stupid usernames which were set up around the time of the tender award. It isn't setting my mind at ease.

There are problems. These are not small problems, but large scale departures from common practice worldwide.

There is nothing wrong with discussion and debate.

You are getting upset and making personal remarks. That is understandable but it really doesn't help anybody.

Geogregor

As a non Irish person I have to say I find this thread absolutely fascinating.

How does it manage to be so active? Let's face it, an idea of discussing postcodes is rather "geeky", not to say boring, to an average person.
And yet passionate discussion goes on, and on, and on...

On the other hand many road, or rail, or any other infrastructure connected threads stay in the abyss with occasional post here and there.

How come?

Leonard Shelby

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Great, let's hear your credentials, and who your employer is, so that we can benefit fully from your expertise and our minds can be set at ease.

Credentials mean nothing. You obviously think otherwise. If I'm a bus driver from Lucan do you simply dismiss my arguments because you have better credentials?

Can you supply a copy of this?

Ask An Post

The issue isn't how mail delivery works, it's the postal operational model. It isn't a high-accuracy model.

Geodirectory (as is illustrated in recent comments) has related problems. It just isn't that accurate. How accurate is it? I don't know, but it isn't 6-nines, and I don't think it is even 99.5 percent.

Continuing to quote 6 nines "because you heard it is a figure used in manufacturing" doesn't strengthen your case.

Some people are very happy to shut down debate while hiding behind stupid usernames which were set up around the time of the tender award. It isn't setting my mind at ease.

There are problems. These are not small problems, but large scale departures from common practice worldwide.

There is nothing wrong with discussion and debate.

You are getting upset and making personal remarks. That is understandable but it really doesn't help anybody.

If you are already talking to the department, as you claim, why are you bothering to ask questions here? Surely you can just get answers directly?

yuloni

This post has been deleted.

antoinolachtnai

Leonard Shelby wrote: »

Credentials mean nothing. You obviously think otherwise. If I'm a bus driver from Lucan do you simply dismiss my arguments because you have better credentials?

I never dismissed your arguments. You dismissed mine (and threw loads of personal insults).

flutered

this morning i recieved a package from n.j. usa, it was mailed to me on monday last, there are four lines in my address, similar to below
flutered
boards
co.limerick
ireland
now can anyone on here explain to me how eircode, or any other code for that matter can improve on this time frame

SpaceTime

It won't as your delivery company found you.
It might reduce their overheads (cheaper deliveries)

However, it's a bit like saying that having a phone number like

Ballygobackwards 211 where you had to rely on an operator to be available to figure out how to route the call is better than

+353 39 555 5211 which will always work and doesn't rely on human intervention.

ukoda

flutered wrote: »

this morning i recieved a package from n.j. usa, it was mailed to me on monday last, there are four lines in my address, similar to below
flutered
boards
co.limerick
ireland
now can anyone on here explain to me how eircode, or any other code for that matter can improve on this time frame

That's a very narrow perceptive to look at it from. The truth is it probably can't improve that time frame much, but that doesn't mean a postcode isn't needed.

It will improve accuracy of the OCR tech meaning it's less prone to errors so that there's less chance of the package going astray. It may also improve the sorting time and will probably save An Post money.

There are hundreds of other uses for a postcode too besides mail delivery.

HardenendMan

God there is a lot of bitchyness in this thread. Reads like a lot of the contributors have vested interests (on both sides).

I have read the tech spec. It is just an unique identifier on the address database.

The main arguments seems to be regarding hierarchy.

It will be very easy to write software to give back a sequence. This will probably be an off the shelf product for companies to purchase.

I believe the more random the better. Reduces error. Stops people using partial postcodes.

The big companies obviously want a UK type system. They can use their existing software systems with low cost!! Vested interests!

yuloni

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