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National Postcodes to be introduced
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Digital Rights Ireland is a long-established advocacy group and by no means a front for any company!
It has been around for quite a while and has done a hell of a lot over the last few years to safeguard privacy online and elsewhere, including challenging the EU's Data Retention Directive which was successfully struck down by the European Court of Justice.
There are legitimate concerns to be raised about assigning unique ID numbers to every home in the country as it allows huge levels of data acquisition and data mining which is not possible in normal postal code systems used in almost every other state.
They have concerns about the Eircode proposal as it's currently structured, not with postcodes per se.
http://www.digitalrights.ie/761/0 -
Digital Rights Ireland is a long-established advocacy group and by no means a front for any company!
It has been around for quite a while and has done a hell of a lot over the last few years to safeguard privacy online and elsewhere, including challenging the EU's Data Retention Directive which was successfully struck down by the European Court of Justice.
There are legitimate concerns to be raised about assigning unique ID numbers to every home in the country as it allows huge levels of data acquisition and data mining which is not possible in normal postal code systems used in almost every other state.
Until today I'd never heard of them, hadn't even noticed that they have there own forum here.
I have no problem with having a unique ID being assigned to my address and think it will enhance online security because it will cut out some of the scams that can be run by having a vague address. I can already look up almost every address location in Ireland through one companies web site (and probably a lot more) so I can't see the problem.
The UK postcode address db was hacked ages ago and can be downloaded by anyone and I don't think that has caused any data protection issues.0 -
They've been around for quite a long time (by Internet standards anyway) at this stage and are somewhere between an activist group and an advocacy group.
I just find the implication that there's something macabre about activist groups to be a little bizarre. We live in an open democracy and pluralist society where we can have these kinds of debates. We don't have to agree on anything, and can hold totally opposing views to each other or to the Government. That's how our society works and I don't think we should have anyone attempting to shut down debates about issues that could contain serious questions around privacy. If there are some, let's address them now and fix the system before it's rolled out, not have to patch it afterwards if someone starts challenging the system's compliance with principles of privacy or starts pointing aspects of the system that the design process did not think of.
I think this is very much a case of needing the project done 'right' rather than 'now'.
DRI's concerns are very worth taking on board and I think if we're going to have a postal code system (which we direly need) it should be done right, not rushed as the last thing we need is data protection issues to arise that could have been taken out in a shakedown period.
It's taking too long because there was far too much foot dragging by the Government and failure to get the ball rolling at all years ago. Then it seems to me that this proposal has been rushed through as quickly as possible to just 'get on with it'.
The Government sat on post codes for years leaving them on the back burner and doing little/nothing about them. That's why we're in this situation at the moment. It's a bit like the student who does the huge project the night before the deadline, it's always going to have a few gaping holes.
Just because the people on this forum have been discussing postal codes for several years at this stage, doesn't mean that the Government started to think them through all those years ago or that they've thought through all the possible uses or problems that might come up either.0 -
You can actually read their letter to the minister in full, they're completely transparent about what they do:
http://www.digitalrights.ie/dri/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/letter-re-eircode-to-minister.pdf0 -
You can actually read their letter to the minister in full, they're completely transparent about what they do:
http://www.digitalrights.ie/dri/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/letter-re-eircode-to-minister.pdf
The letter doesnt actually say what exactly they are concerned about, for making a pretty alarmist statement, they havent actually said why it poses a risk? does anyone know what their concerns actually are? like an example?0 -
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The letter doesnt actually say what exactly they are concerned about, for making a pretty alarmist statement, they havent actually said why it poses a risk? does anyone know what their concerns actually are? like an example?
From what I gather, their main concern is that it links individual properties to a unique ID number rather than just a codified address.
The issues would seem to be more about hanging other data off the eircode rather than the code itself and the fact that it is uncharted water in the sense of no other country having adopted a database look up code for addresses, which is what Eircode is really.0 -
From what I gather, their main concern is that it links individual properties to a unique ID number rather than just a codified address.
The issues would seem to be more about hanging other data off the eircode rather than the code itself and the fact that it is uncharted water in the sense of no other country having adopted a database look up code for addresses, which is what Eircode is really.
but they say they dont have an issue with unique identifiers for properties?0 -
but they say they dont have an issue with unique identifiers for properties?
The biggest concern I'd have is that if any database links it to a name there'll be a problem.
In some rural areas, houses don't have any unique identifier at all (not even a house name). So you could end up with something like
A1B 1BC2:
You search that and you get something like:
Murphy
Ballytown
County Ossery.
I'm unclear as to how they're going to identify the 'delivery points' if there's nothing other than a family name to make them unique in a lot of cases.
You've also got one practical problem with these too, if you're a digit out, you could conceivably strike upon a valid code no where near the property.
A1B 2A2C
A1B 2A3C might be nowhere near each other.0 -
The letter doesnt actually say what exactly they are concerned about, for making a pretty alarmist statement, they havent actually said why it poses a risk? does anyone know what their concerns actually are? like an example?
Actually, I think it's quite a measured letter - possibly one that has been vetted by a legal adviser. It doesn't go into detail on the material risks because they have been previously highlighted to the addressee. Since not all such information may (for good reasons) be in the public domain, they may see it as unwise to restate it in an open letter.
The letter also clearly states that they envisage "simple changes" to eircode, rather than to scrap it completely. They accept that the system won't be perfect but suggest it needs some degree of change to address privacy concerns.
It's a reasonable message - the Department has the right to select any postcode system it wants but it's better to consider making simple changes to it now than risk being forced to do so later - particularly given Ireland's unfortunate history of wasting taxpayers' money.0 -
+1Orchard Rebel wrote: »Actually, I think it's quite a measured letter - possibly one that has been vetted by a legal adviser. It doesn't go into detail on the material risks because they have been previously highlighted to the addressee. Since not all such information may (for good reasons) be in the public domain, they may see it as unwise to restate it in an open letter.
The letter also clearly states that they envisage "simple changes" to eircode, rather than to scrap it completely. They accept that the system won't be perfect but suggest it needs some degree of change to address privacy concerns.
It's a reasonable message - the Department has the right to select any postcode system it wants but it's better to consider making simple changes to it now than risk being forced to do so later - particularly given Ireland's unfortunate history of wasting taxpayers' money.
As was mentioned earlier DRI have exprience in dealing with issues in the privacy area. My understanding of the issue (and those of the Data Commissioner they mentioned) are the possibilities of the equivalent of "reverse searching" offered by the Eircode system. I'm not sure of the legal status but I don't think a back to front telephone directory is widely available? Of course since there is no reliable mobile phone directory it doesn' much matter. DRI seem to be raising an issue that they raised a while back and haven't received an answer. AFAIK the Eircode is privatised, SWS in Cork (owned now by the Eircode winning bidder) is to provide a commercial access service.0 -
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While I appreciate you have concerns as to the accuracy of An Post delivery of Eircodes it is not valid to state that a significant proportion of homes will get the wrong eircode. You can validly state that you would be concerned about the implications IF a significant proportion of home received the wrong eircode. I think your are overreaching.antoinolachtnai wrote: »A second obvious issue is accuracy. The plan to distribute eircodes to homes begs the question. A significant proportion of homes will get the wrong eircode and this has all sorts of safety implications.
I assume your argument is that a hierarchical postcode would allow users to enter partial postcode rather than a full postcode that will identify their property. I don't think the concerns are justified for two reasons:antoinolachtnai wrote: »It isn't really about risk. It's about uncertainty. It is very hard to anticipate what issues will arise because there is no benchmark to measure by. The uncertainty is needless.
One obvious issue is household-level targeting of web advertising.
1. A Practical Solution Exists
It is just as easy to tell people to use the postcode of a local public building (Church, Library, School, etc.) as it is to tell them to only enter a partial postcode if they want to protect their privacy.
2. Capability Already Exists in UK
In the UK many postcode sites immediately present the user with a list of the addresses in the postcode to choose from when they enter their postcode. People choose their address without thinking. This allows a House number & Postcode combination to be captured and stored as a cookie in the same manner that I believe you are concerned about, e.g. 22BT114AA (please correct me if I've misinterpreted). This provides a household indicator. Technically this is trivial, and if it was worthwhile you would expect to see examples of it being misused in UK in the manner that you concerned about. Do you have any examples of this occurring?
I think quite a number of reasons have been put forward. You obviously don't believe they are justified but that is just your opinion, again I think you are overreaching here.No clear reason has been put forward not to follow at least something like international best and accepted practice in relation to a postcode.0 -
The biggest concern I'd have is that if any database links it to a name there'll be a problem.
In some rural areas, houses don't have any unique identifier at all (not even a house name). So you could end up with something like
A1B 1BC2:
You search that and you get something like:
Murphy
Ballytown
County Ossery.
I'm unclear as to how they're going to identify the 'delivery points' if there's nothing other than a family name to make them unique in a lot of cases.
You've also got one practical problem with these too, if you're a digit out, you could conceivably strike upon a valid code no where near the property.
A1B 2A2C
A1B 2A3C might be nowhere near each other.
Many / most rural addresses have this issue. While a farm may be known locally as "Murphy's place" etc, typically there is no sign "Murphy's Farm" on the entrance, there is no name for the road which provides access to the farm, there is probably a townland name - but chances of the townland name being signposted are close to zero.
So effectively, all the €100 million Eircode will provide in these cases is
A1B 2A2C = 53.323653, -7.901458
and thanks to randomization of the code,
A1B 2A2D could be 30km away.
Any entity wanting to use the Eircode will have to pay a sackfull of €€€ and for say 40% of the address space all they will get will be 53.323653, -7.901458, or similar.
These are the very addresses that need more specifics - like a name of a road, a building number on that road, and a town-name.
One would have to travel to the remotest parts of Africa to find such a level of disorganization, bad design, cluelessness and lack of contact with reality. Anyway, there wouldn't be €100 million to waste on postcodes and their implementation.
And the farmers in the area who had farm implements would be using devices with wheels similar to those used in Europe and the US. They certainly would not spend resources devising square wheels, just to be different to the white population in the Northern hemisphere.
Even in the "semi-square wheel" countries - ie GB and Canada, who use alpha numeric codes, they also have road names and building numbers.0 -
Many / most rural addresses have this issue. While a farm may be known locally as "Murphy's place" etc, typically there is no sign "Murphy's Farm" on the entrance, there is no name for the road which provides access to the farm, there is probably a townland name - but chances of the townland name being signposted are close to zero.
So effectively, all the €100 million Eircode will provide in these cases is
A1B 2A2C = 53.323653, -7.901458
and thanks to randomization of the code,
A1B 2A2D could be 30km away.
Any entity wanting to use the Eircode will have to pay a sackfull of €€€ and for say 40% of the address space all they will get will be 53.323653, -7.901458, or similar.
These are the very addresses that need more specifics - like a name of a road, a building number on that road, and a town-name.
One would have to travel to the remotest parts of Africa to find such a level of disorganization, bad design, cluelessness and lack of contact with reality. Anyway, there wouldn't be €100 million to waste on postcodes and their implementation.
And the farmers in the area who had farm implements would be using devices with wheels similar to those used in Europe and the US. They certainly would not spend resources devising square wheels, just to be different to the white population in the Northern hemisphere.
Even in the "semi-square wheel" countries - ie GB and Canada, who use alpha numeric codes, they also have road names and building numbers.
I don't think thats how eircode works I think you can get far more information but once you have latitude and longitude you can look the address up anyway.0 -
Could there be a separate crowdsourced database built up I wonder? Presumably as long as it's not copying content, but rather collecting it again it would be OK?0
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Many / most rural addresses have this issue. While a farm may be known locally as "Murphy's place" etc, typically there is no sign "Murphy's Farm" on the entrance, there is no name for the road which provides access to the farm, there is probably a townland name - but chances of the townland name being signposted are close to zero.
So effectively, all the €100 million Eircode will provide in these cases is
A1B 2A2C = 53.323653, -7.901458
and thanks to randomization of the code,
A1B 2A2D could be 30km away.
Any entity wanting to use the Eircode will have to pay a sackfull of €€€ and for say 40% of the address space all they will get will be 53.323653, -7.901458, or similar.
These are the very addresses that need more specifics - like a name of a road, a building number on that road, and a town-name.
One would have to travel to the remotest parts of Africa to find such a level of disorganization, bad design, cluelessness and lack of contact with reality. Anyway, there wouldn't be €100 million to waste on postcodes and their implementation.
And the farmers in the area who had farm implements would be using devices with wheels similar to those used in Europe and the US. They certainly would not spend resources devising square wheels, just to be different to the white population in the Northern hemisphere.
Even in the "semi-square wheel" countries - ie GB and Canada, who use alpha numeric codes, they also have road names and building numbers.
I don't know where you are getting your figures from... Have you anything to back up this claim of a "sack full of €€€" what figures that are available are you basing this on? The nonsense figure of 5k being banded about by the loc8 crew or the €200 the oireachtas were told? I'd hardly consider €200 an unreasonable fee for an SME
Can you provide your source? And can you quantify a "sack load" into actual monetary terms?0 -
I don't think thats how eircode works I think you can get far more information but once you have latitude and longitude you can look the address up anyway.
The product guide was posted here with details of exactly what you'll get. But some posters don't like dealing in facts and prefer to use their imagination0 -
Could there be a separate crowdsourced database built up I wonder? Presumably as long as it's not copying content, but rather collecting it again it would be OK?
Or some people might think of hacking the database - eg to remove the algo they use for randomization. All the hacker would need is a sample of addresses and eircodes to find a pattern of "encryption". Derivative = list of postcodes in order of appearance along a road or street etc.
Victims of the decrypted product might then be tempted to bring a legal action against gov.ie and capita. Breach of promise etc. A stupid promise (eg 14 West Street is next door to 16 West Street).
While a crowdsourced database would probably work if everybody was to join in and provide their data, what would motivate them? It would be like a crowdsourced database of car registrations = eg 141-WX-23456 is owned by (name and address).
While few people mind public disclosure that their car was first registered in 2014 (1st half) or that it was registered in Wexford - and they probably wouldn't mind a sub-section of Wexford (ie equivalent to a postal district), I don't think they would want higher location resolution in their public car registration number (eg street name or worse house number). People want to give out their data on a selective, need to know basis.0 -
Or some people might think of hacking the database - eg to remove the algo they use for randomization. All the hacker would need is a sample of addresses and eircodes to find a pattern of "encryption". Derivative = list of postcodes in order of appearance along a road or street etc
Or they could just purchase a licence for eircode and have legal access to all this kind of data and be able to run any queries they want.
Seriously, will you read the product guide? Please?0 -
I don't know where you are getting your figures from... Have you anything to back up this claim of a "sack full of €€€" what figures that are available are you basing this on? The nonsense figure of 5k being banded about by the loc8 crew or the €200 the oireachtas were told? I'd hardly consider €200 an unreasonable fee for an SME
Can you provide your source? And can you quantify a "sack load" into actual monetary terms?
1) Software modifications - move to new version of software which often implies new operating system which often implies new hardware.
2) Cost of devising and implementing the system.
3) Cost of buying the database from Capita etc
4) Lost opporunity costs for not having a postcode compliant with European and global standards.
5) Increased fraud
6) Address "cleaning" costs (not that one ends up with a clean address after this half baked attempt)
7) Custom software for the postal sorting offices - because this type of postcode is not in use elsewhere.
8) Updating government computer systems - when I think of this line item alone, I suspect that my guesstimate is grossly under the mark.
9) Emergency services vehicles don't have GPS hardware or software. If they do get it, it will have to be specially customised for them because a standard GPS will not be able to store the data points for each of the close to 2 million locations in the state.
10) There won't be complete tables of Irish Eircodes in publicly sold GPS devices because they would take up around 5GB of data, just for Ireland. The typical GPS data for all of Europe (not just EU) takes about 6GB. The GPS market is competitive price-wise. 97% of the users of GPS will have to interest in the fact that Murphy's Farm is at co-ordinates x and how to get to it.
If GPS units can't deal witht he Eircode, what point the Eircode?
11) Data privacy cost - if Capita/Gov.ie give these data to Google & Co, the NSA & GCHQ will have super-accurate means of spying on Irish people. And Capita appear to have contracts with these people anyway. Google street view has covered most roads and streets in Ireland, and captured wireless internet traffic from WiFi routers en route. Their database knows where every MAC address is, virtually. Aggregation of these databases will provide lots of additional information, which is a total breach of personal liberty and freedom. Which leads on to other risks of a more political, democratic and administrative kind. All with their cost.0 -
1) Software modifications - move to new version of software which often implies new operating system which often implies new hardware.
2) Cost of devising and implementing the system.
3) Cost of buying the database from Capita etc
4) Lost opporunity costs for not having a postcode compliant with European and global standards.
5) Increased fraud
6) Address "cleaning" costs (not that one ends up with a clean address after this half baked attempt)
7) Custom software for the postal sorting offices - because this type of postcode is not in use elsewhere.
8) Updating government computer systems - when I think of this line item alone, I suspect that my guesstimate is grossly under the mark.
9) Emergency services vehicles don't have GPS hardware or software. If they do get it, it will have to be specially customised for them because a standard GPS will not be able to store the data points for each of the close to 2 million locations in the state.
10) There won't be complete tables of Irish Eircodes in publicly sold GPS devices because they would take up around 5GB of data, just for Ireland. The typical GPS data for all of Europe (not just EU) takes about 6GB. The GPS market is competitive price-wise. 97% of the users of GPS will have to interest in the fact that Murphy's Farm is at co-ordinates x and how to get to it.
If GPS units can't deal witht he Eircode, what point the Eircode?
11) Data privacy cost - if Capita/Gov.ie give these data to Google & Co, the NSA & GCHQ will have super-accurate means of spying on Irish people. And Capita appear to have contracts with these people anyway. Google street view has covered most roads and streets in Ireland, and captured wireless internet traffic from WiFi routers en route. Their database knows where every MAC address is, virtually. Aggregation of these databases will provide lots of additional information, which is a total breach of personal liberty and freedom. Which leads on to other risks of a more political, democratic and administrative kind. All with their cost.
That's a nice rant. But I asked you did you have a source for the cost of eircode. You specifically claimed that to be a "sack full" of money and you have no idea what the licence fee will cost
Will you go back over this thread because most of the nonsense you claim has been debunked as rubbish and im not going to rehash the same arguments.
But just to say on one point. It has been discussed at length and it WILL easily fit on a sat nav. Again a nonsense figure of 5gb you've pulled out of thin air.
And you've clearly not bothered your ar$e to read the product guide. Yet you still feel the need to post "facts and figures" that you've entirely made up yourself to suit your argument0 -
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That's a nice rant. But I asked you did you have a source for the cost of eircode. You specifically claimed that to be a "sack full" of money and you have no idea what the licence fee will cost
Will you go back over this thread because most of the nonsense you claim has been debunked as rubbish and im not going to rehash the same arguments.
But just to say on one point. It has been discussed at length and it WILL easily fit on a sat nav. Again a nonsense figure of 5gb you've pulled out of thin air.
And you've clearly not bothered your ar$e to read the product guide. Yet you still feel the need to post "facts and figures" that you've entirely made up yourself to suit your argument
I listed some items which occur to me that you or anybody else can put their value on. No doubt there will be others, if this project of folly continues.
As for the size of the database in a GPS device (to use the normal international term for the device), I have incorporated space for 2 million addresses, an 8 character Eircode, the Lat/Long, and space for reference to local place names eg townland, and there links to towns and other geographical information.
The thinly disguised rude vulgarity and tone of your posting (and the content of your general contribution to the thread) makes one wonder if you work for Capita? Or what is your motivation?0 -
I listed some items which occur to me that you or anybody else can put their value on. No doubt there will be others, if this project of folly continues.
As for the size of the database in a GPS device (to use the normal international term for the device), I have incorporated space for 2 million addresses, an 8 character Eircode, the Lat/Long, and space for reference to local place names eg townland, and there links to towns and other geographical information.
The thinly disguised rude vulgarity and tone of your posting (and the content of your general contribution to the thread) makes one wonder if you work for Capita? Or what is your motivation?
You've come up with that sat nav figure of 5GB yourself? You realise you are way off don't you? Could I suggest again you read the product guide? And then the posts here on the sat nav database requirements.
Again I have indentified my interest in eircode as an end user and nothing more.
I get annoyed when people make stuff up and try and pass it off as fact. This usually means my tone is less than tolerant for people who do this.
You've claimed the licence fee will be a "sack load of money" yet you've no idea what it will cost
You've made up a figure of 5GB for sat navs that's way off the mark. If you had taken the time to educate yourself properly you'd know the ENTIRE ericode database is less than 2GB and the part needed for use on sat navs would only be about 200-300MB0 -
You've come up with that sat nav figure of 5GB yourself? You realise you are way off don't you? Could I suggest again you read the product guide? And then the posts here on the sat nav database requirements.
The database size requirements for each GPS device will be a function of the software design of that productYou've made up a figure of 5GB for sat navs that's way off the mark. If you had taken the time to educate yourself properly you'd know the ENTIRE ericode database is less than 2GB and the part needed for use on sat navs would only be about 200-300MB
While the Eircode database may only require 200 to 300 MB of data (how do you know that if you don't work for Capita?) in relation to the fields for geographic co-ordinates, the producer of a GPS device will need to reference these co-ordinates to other data elements pertaining to the address to enable the user to enter the address in the format which they are familar with and to display the data on maps etc. This will involve townlands, house names, farm names, and any other available geospatial data.
The data requirement would be far smaller if it was based on real world reality. eg a townland is made up of roads. Each building along a road in a rural area has a metric number (which is a computable point rather than something that needs to be stored in detail for each address).
The entire approach to the eircode is clueless in its design, hyper expensive, far from the real world (in terms of acceptability to the ordinary person or someone who is familiar with these matters in some detail), non-standard, re-invention of the wheel, breach of privacy, etc etc. It would be difficult for the brightest person to come up with a more dysfunctional, complex system, even if they were to be paid a billion EUR.
Successful things in life focus on simplicity.0 -
The database size requirements for each GPS device will be a function of the software design of that product
While the Eircode database may only require 200 to 300 MB of data (how do you know that if you don't work for Capita?) in relation to the fields for geographic co-ordinates, the producer of a GPS device will need to reference these co-ordinates to other data elements pertaining to the address to enable the user to enter the address in the format which they are familar with and to display the data on maps etc. This will involve townlands, house names, farm names, and any other available geospatial data.
The data requirement would be far smaller if it was based on real world reality. eg a townland is made up of roads. Each building along a road in a rural area has a metric number (which is a computable point rather than something that needs to be stored in detail for each address).
The entire approach to the eircode is clueless in its design, hyper expensive, far from the real world (in terms of acceptability to the ordinary person or someone who is familiar with these matters in some detail), non-standard, re-invention of the wheel, breach of privacy, etc etc. It would be difficult for the brightest person to come up with a more dysfunctional, complex system, even if they were to be paid a billion EUR.
Successful things in life focus on simplicity.
I know it from reading the product guide which was posted here (by me because I signed up to get it on the eircode website, which anyone can do) and from observing the discussions here
All that's needed for a sat nav is the geo's and part of the address. This is small data and everything else already exisits on a sat nav. I.e. The sat nav already has all the geo's and it also already has an address database (as we use addresses now to look up on a sat nav) all
That is needed for a sat nav is for the pre existing addresses already stored in its database to be encoded with eircodes, so when you enter the eircode it returns the address and geo's that already exist on the sat navs database.0 -
Leonard Shelby wrote: »While I appreciate you have concerns as to the accuracy of An Post delivery of Eircodes it is not valid to state that a significant proportion of homes will get the wrong eircode. You can validly state that you would be concerned about the implications IF a significant proportion of home received the wrong eircode. I think your are overreaching.
They are going to receive the wrong code if the current methodology is continued. The only way this can be avoided is through major and unanticipated expenditure on special deliveries and processing, in the order of 5 or 10 million euros of unanticipated costs.1. A Practical Solution Exists
It is just as easy to tell people to use the postcode of a local public building (Church, Library, School, etc.) as it is to tell them to only enter a partial postcode if they want to protect their privacy.
So why not do it the way it's done everywhere else in the world? That is an even more practical solution.2. Capability Already Exists in UK
In the UK many postcode sites immediately present the user with a list of the addresses in the postcode to choose from when they enter their postcode. People choose their address without thinking.
Do you have any evidence that British people are going around giving out their full address without thinking?This allows a House number & Postcode combination to be captured and stored as a cookie in the same manner that I believe you are concerned about, e.g. 22BT114AA (please correct me if I've misinterpreted). This provides a household indicator. Technically this is trivial, and if it was worthwhile you would expect to see examples of it being misused in UK in the manner that you concerned about. Do you have any examples of this occurring?
You are conflating the issues of a hierarchical code and a house-level code here. The UK is an example of typical international practice. Eircode is not.I think quite a number of reasons have been put forward. You obviously don't believe they are justified but that is just your opinion, again I think you are overreaching here.
I can't tell you for certain that eircode will have privacy problems or how deep they will be. Neither can you tell me that there won't be. The reason is that this is completely novel, and as a result there is massive uncertainty.
You are the one who is overreaching when you say this is a good solution and it will work well. You have no way of knowing this, because nothing like this has ever been done before.
The massive uncertainty that has been created brings no benefits. There is no good reason for taking this sort of chance with a piece of national infrastructure. There is no good consumer-focused reason why a hierarchical postcode could not be implemented. (A number of reasons have been put forward but they are pretty weak.)
There are other problems too. For example, mixing numbers and letters in a code as eircode does is bad practice and is against the advice in the literature. The design is apparently based on some misunderstood psychological principle. The fact that there was no independent audit of the scheme and there was no consultation with the public or with the relevant industry players is also damning.
The good thing is that the work that has been done to date could easily be repurposed to produce a good, workable code.
I am still concerned that some accounts were created within days of the tender award being made, with the apparent purpose of advocating in relation to eircode on public forums (and not just this one). This just doesn't seem like an open way for eircode to be doing business.0 -
It looks like we will have to agree to disagree, we don't appear to be able to convince each other of the merits of our argument. I doubt very much whether their is any scope for design change as it will be launched in a few months time. Time will tell whether your concerns are valid. I stand by my New Years predictions.antoinolachtnai wrote: »They are going to receive the wrong code if the current methodology is continued. The only way this can be avoided is through major and unanticipated expenditure on special deliveries and processing, in the order of 5 or 10 million euros of unanticipated costs.
So why not do it the way it's done everywhere else in the world? That is an even more practical solution.
Do you have any evidence that British people are going around giving out their full address without thinking?
You are conflating the issues of a hierarchical code and a house-level code here. The UK is an example of typical international practice. Eircode is not.
I can't tell you for certain that eircode will have privacy problems or how deep they will be. Neither can you tell me that there won't be. The reason is that this is completely novel, and as a result there is massive uncertainty.
You are the one who is overreaching when you say this is a good solution and it will work well. You have no way of knowing this, because nothing like this has ever been done before.
The massive uncertainty that has been created brings no benefits. There is no good reason for taking this sort of chance with a piece of national infrastructure. There is no good consumer-focused reason why a hierarchical postcode could not be implemented. (A number of reasons have been put forward but they are pretty weak.)
There are other problems too. For example, mixing numbers and letters in a code as eircode does is bad practice and is against the advice in the literature. The design is apparently based on some misunderstood psychological principle. The fact that there was no independent audit of the scheme and there was no consultation with the public or with the relevant industry players is also damning.
The good thing is that the work that has been done to date could easily be repurposed to produce a good, workable code.
I am still concerned that some accounts were created within days of the tender award being made, with the apparent purpose of advocating in relation to eircode on public forums (and not just this one). This just doesn't seem like an open way for eircode to be doing business.0 -
Some interesting articles in one of Ireland's most prestigious national daily newspapers on eircodes - all written by the same journalist - they presumably represent a broad 360 degrees view of the topic. Informative, cutting-edge, award-winning stuff indeed!
11/10/2014 Postcodes will cost lives, warn emergency workers
06/11/2014 Delivery firms refuse to use new postcode system
10/11/2014 Eircode could become next Irish Water
10/11/2014 Postcode privacy ’solutions’ promised
20/11/2014 Postcode system ‘world-beating’ and ‘future proof’
06/12/2014 Freight industry’s demand on postcodes
13/12/2014 Ombudsman to receive Eircode complaint
20/12/2014 Half of businesses believe Eircodes will have ‘no impact’
14/01/2015 Group warns of postcode project dangers0 -
Some interesting articles in one of Ireland's most prestigious national daily newspapers on eircodes - all written by the same journalist - they presumably represent a broad 360 degrees view of the topic. Informative, cutting-edge, award-winning stuff indeed!
Maybe the journalist is a person of strong convictions?
This might make sense to you in light of your own life experiences. You appear to have strong convictions of your own. You joined boards.ie in November 2014 to make posts about eircode and how good it is. You have posted 19 times. You have never posted on any other topic.0 -
Let's consider the issue of maintenance of small-areas (SA) and how that might impact a postcode that was based on them. In other words, how often would people's postcode need to change based on the changing environment with new houses being built etc? You can look at the map up-thread for reference. As I see it, there are a number of different scenarios to consider:
- Existing densely populated SA's. These are likely to never change as there isn't likely to be construction of new buildings on any scale.
- Construction of new housing/buildings on green-field sites at the edge of urban areas. In this case, new SA's will be created for the new buildings. The boundary of the SA that they were in before will change. But, there would be no impact on existing postcodes, because there were no houses on the construction site.
- One off housing in the country-side. You can add a fair number of new houses to an existing SA without affecting any existing postcodes. Eventually, it may become necessary to split the area, and that would require half the properties approx to get new postcodes. Given that this kind of planning is not considered sustainable nowadays, maybe it is less likely in future.
- Construction in brown-field sites among existing building stock. In this case, you have a choice, you can deliberately keep the existing buildings in the existing area so long as the area remains continuous, or else you can redraw the local areas.
So, if Eircodes were based on the current model, except that only the last two characters were random, and the previous two are a small area id, allocated sequentially, most Eircodes would never change (scenarios 1. and 2.). If you were prepared to allow small areas to grow bigger than currently allowed, then the amount of change for 3. and 4. would be minimal.
But, then again, Eircodes will also change too, if An Post decide to redraw their post-town boundaries.0 - Existing densely populated SA's. These are likely to never change as there isn't likely to be construction of new buildings on any scale.
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If small areas were the basis of the postcode system, then the aggregation of these areas to make not-so-small areas and then larger areas and so on so a hierarchical post code was developed from the bottom up, it could follow county boundaries and be logical.
Eircode does nothing in this direction at all.0
This discussion has been closed.
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