National Postcodes to be introduced

ukoda · 14-02-2015 1:51pm

BarryM wrote: »

Wasn't there a complaint to the EC about the whole process? Any result?

The Capita piece is presumably because Capita owns SWS in Bandon/Clon who are presunably using local people?

B

The complaint is dead and buried. The EU closed the case with no actions taken.

Altho some people on this thread are under the illusion there's still an ongoing investigation. But they are getting confused. What's on going is the EU looking in general at how contracts are awarded and the criteria around SME's

ozmo · 14-02-2015 1:56pm

ukoda wrote: »

The freight companies are annoyed that eircode isn't the same as the UK system.

How dare they request a system of us which is compatible with the rest of the world.
Cheek of them.

ukoda · 14-02-2015 1:58pm

ozmo wrote: »

How dare they request a system of us which is compatible with the rest of the world.
Cheek of them.

Or one could say. How dare they reqeust us to introduce an ancient system designed in the 1960's just to suit thier needs. Postcodes are for more than delivering packages.

ozmo · 14-02-2015 2:16pm

ukoda wrote: »

Or one could say. How dare they reqeust us to introduce an ancient system designed in the 1960's just to suit thier needs. Postcodes are for more than delivering packages.

You are very quick to shoot down any critism of eircode - but in your opinion what is it exactly that you belive makes this eircode solution such a good system over others? I dont think youve said?

ukoda · 14-02-2015 2:20pm

ozmo wrote: »

You are very quick to shoot down any critism of eircode - but in your opinion what is it exactly that you belive makes this eircode solution such a good system over others? I dont think youve said?

I just want Ireland to have postcodes. I've reviewed the product guide on eircode and all the info i could find and I think eircode is a good overall solution for the country. It doesn't 100% meet everyone's requirement, no code will, but I think it's a workable solution across all sectors that need a code.

ukoda · 14-02-2015 2:22pm

Meanwhile back in the real world....companies and communities banding together to maximise eircodes potential and help each other introduce it

http://www.wheel.ie/news/eircode-community-outreach-programme

ozmo · 14-02-2015 2:30pm

ukoda wrote: »

I just want Ireland to have postcodes. I've reviewed the product guide on eircode and all the info i could find and I think eircode is a good overall solution for the country. It doesn't 100% meet everyone's requirement, no code will, but I think it's a workable solution across all sectors that need a code.

Yes- but what exactly is the part of this particular system you like so much.
The above is just a "it will do" - you critise all the alternatives and say Eircode is your preference- but you never say why you think so.

antoinolachtnai · 14-02-2015 2:31pm

No one is 'banding together' to do anything. Eircode are spending 300,000 euros for some PR waffle. It is a complete waste of money. The expense of this palaver will then be recovered from users, or failing that, the taxpayer.

The most significant aspect of that initiative is that it is being organized by county (unlike eircode).

ukoda · 14-02-2015 2:38pm

ozmo wrote: »

Yes- but what exactly is the part of this particular system you like so much.
The above is just a "it will do" - you critise all the alternatives and say Eircode is your preference- but you never say why you think so.

I've put forward my thoughts all over this thread if you look back over it. I've many times put forward advantages.

I'm not going to list them now again as it it will turn into each one being picked apart and we will end up rehashing the same old arguments over and over again.

Have a look back over the thread for my thoughts around the benefits and advantages.

ukoda · 14-02-2015 2:40pm

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

No one is 'banding together' to do anything. Eircode are spending 300,000 euros for some PR waffle. It is a complete waste of money. The expense of this palaver will then be recovered from users, or failing that, the taxpayer.

The most significant aspect of that initiative is that it is being organized by county (unlike eircode).

Are you claiming eircode is funding this grant and it's their initiative?

ozmo · 14-02-2015 3:18pm

ukoda wrote: »

Have a look back over the thread for my thoughts around the benefits and advantages.

TLTR

Again with the answer dodging. Its a simple question. Youve posted more than most on this thread-
You dont like the alternatives, and all other countries have all got it wrong aparently eg. the UK postcode because its not new.

But you really like Eircode. Yet i dont recall seeing any post from you as to what you like about Eircode and what it is about Eircode specifically that no other postcode can do as well.
Eg. Compared to say a UK postcode+house number combination.

ukoda · 14-02-2015 3:37pm

ozmo wrote: »

TLTR

Again with the answer dodging. Its a simple question. Youve posted more than most on this thread-
You dont like the alternatives, and all other countries have all got it wrong aparently eg. the UK postcode because its not new.

But you really like Eircode. Yet i dont recall seeing any post from you as to what you like about Eircode and what it is about Eircode specifically that no other postcode can do as well.
Eg. Compared to say a UK postcode+house number combination.

Fine let's do this so....

I like that it's tied to a database, it means it can be used for address validation on websites and any other database
I like that it doesn't group houses to a level that can be used by companies to blacklist an area, which frequently happens in the UK
I also like this as it means codes won't have to change when new houses are built.
I like that it is a code to each letterbox and not just a building or patch of land per other codes
I like the look of the ECAD, the queries that can run in it will be very beneficial to a lot of people
I like that it's unique to every address as the grouping thing the uk code does will not work in Ireland due to having no house numbers on a lot of properties
I like the fact that it will have Irish and English variations of the address stored against one ericode so people will find it a lot harder to commit fraud using a different spelling or Irish version of thier address

These are some of the points Ive made previously.

There you go. Now lets hope we don't start a rehash of these arguments we've been having 6 months ago on this thread.

I know people disagree with me on these points. I don't need to see the counter arguments again. Thanks.

ozmo · 14-02-2015 4:11pm

There are some good arguments there, like the use for fraud prevention, thanks for listing them in one spot.

Most though I question - but I will resist the urge to pick them apart -
Personally though I'm still not sold on the need or wisdom for it being an online database of random codes - sounds to me too much like
job protectionism for the AnPost and the Geodirectory offices,
another new revenue stream for the Government selling access
and a way to record properties better for various tax purposes,

...than an efficient system for delivering items or for private and emergency GPS navigation.

Oh - and this...

ukoda wrote: »

Are you claiming eircode is funding this grant and it's their initiative?

Well, from wheels website - it says this on whos behind the funding this push of theirs:

The Eircode Community Outreach Programme is managed and coordinated by The Wheel in conjunction with Irish Rural Link, on contract with Capita, with funding from the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources (DCENR).

ukoda · 14-02-2015 4:37pm

ozmo wrote: »

There are some good arguments there, like the use for fraud prevention, thanks for listing them in one spot.

Most though I question - but I will resist the urge to pick them apart -
Personally though I'm still not sold on the need or wisdom for it being an online database of random codes - sounds to me too much like
job protectionism for the AnPost and the Geodirectory offices,
another new revenue stream for the Government selling access
and a way to record properties better for various tax purposes,

...than an efficient system for delivering items or for private and emergency GPS navigation.

Oh - and this...

Well, from wheels website - it says this on whos behind the funding this push of theirs:

Well when it comes to An Post, they will soon be in a situation where anyone can buy the database of all addresses in the country with a postcode and geo coordinates attached to it. Assuming people adopt the use of eircodes then pretty much any company can compete with An Post now as their local knowledge advantage goes out the window.

I expect revenue to make use of eircode. And I welcome it. We are always complaining about ineffiecenies in public sector. We can't now complain that a state body is being more efficient at their job.

I didn't know capita were funding the grant. But so what really, I'd expect them to be doing this sort of thing to maximise adoption of the code.

I'd be interested to see the level of interest in this initiative. Will show us the interest from people in eircode

antoinolachtnai · 14-02-2015 6:29pm

Who did you think could be funding this? It isn't a grant. It's a contract for services. 30 people will get paid eight grand to wave their hands around and talk about eircode in their local area. They will have a small budget of a couple of grand to organize events locally.

clewbays · 14-02-2015 10:59pm

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

30 people will get paid eight grand to wave their hands around

It had been a weakness with the approach and it is encouraging to see that DCENR have moved to address it! Just posting out an Eircode to an elderly person living alone in a rural area and hoping he/she would realise the importance of it, should they need emergency services etc., was hoping for too much. Reaching out to them using locals will ensure that they will keep their Eircode in a safe place.

p.s. Perhaps Wheel and Rural Link may respond directly to your comment that they recruit people to wave their hands around.

ukoda · 15-02-2015 11:52am

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Who did you think could be funding this? It isn't a grant. It's a contract for services. 30 people will get paid eight grand to wave their hands around and talk about eircode in their local area. They will have a small budget of a couple of grand to organize events locally.

It doesn't matter who funds it really. The important part is the level of interest it generates.

Jack180570 · 15-02-2015 12:51pm

None of the recent comments on this thread explain why the Government have decided to spend €30 million of taxpayers money to 'buy' a postcode system (Eircode) when they were offered one for free (Loc8 Code) a few years ago.

ukoda · 15-02-2015 1:01pm

Jack180570 wrote: »

None of the recent comments on this thread explain why the Government have decided to spend €30 million of taxpayers money to 'buy' a postcode system (Eircode) when they were offered one for free (Loc8 Code) a few years ago.

Loc8 code is basically a shorter way of writing a geo coordinate. In my opinion it is not fit for purpose as a national postcode for the following reasons:

It is not linked to a database so it cannot help companies with address validation (if you want to just enter your postcode on a web form and have it fill your address) same goes for companies who want a quick way to look up address on their system or input them

It cannot provide a code to multiple apartments in one building

It is a free for all generation meaning depending on the size of my property I could have hundreds of codes that point to different areas of my property. Some say an advantage. I say a nightmare.

It has no way of helping fraud prevention

It cannot be queried for statistical purposes

Loc8 code is purely a navigation code. It is not suitable as a national postcode.

SpaceTime · 15-02-2015 1:27pm

No reason why it couldn't have been modified to be linked to a database though.

You could have had 7-digit official loc8 codes and 8 digit ad hoc codes or something like that.

In can envisage a situation where couriers will have to translate Eircode into Loc8 or something similar to allow delivery grouping in vans anyway. They'll be relabelling packages with extra info regardless as Eircode can't be used to manually group items like a UK code.

15-02-2015 4:28pm

SpaceTime wrote: »

I can envisage a situation where couriers will have to translate Eircode into Loc8 or something similar to allow delivery grouping in vans anyway. They'll be relabelling packages with extra info regardless as Eircode can't be used to manually group items like a UK code.

I would say that this issue IS the Achilles heel of the Eircode system.

Sam Russell · 15-02-2015 4:53pm

Could they not include Loc8 codes on the database - or is that simplistc>

ukoda · 15-02-2015 5:05pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Could they not include Loc8 codes on the database - or is that simplistc>

I would think having 2 codes in use would be a bad idea, the eircode database has the geo's, basic software can scan and create a route for couriers. Every company labels and barcodes their packages with the info they need for their scanners. This argument of "no good for deliveries" is a bit of a red herring now that Nightline have come out and said eircode is going to meet their needs and help with efficiencies.
The added benefit for delivery companies is that eircode actually has an address attached to it. Loc8code does not. Bare in mind that these companies delver to addresses not 3 meter square patches of land.

Impetus · 15-02-2015 5:56pm

ukoda wrote: »

The added benefit for delivery companies is that eircode actually has an address attached to it. Loc8code does not. Bare in mind that these companies delver to addresses not 3 meter square patches of land.

In urban areas yes, in many cases, there is an address attached. In rural areas, no in most cases. A townland name is not an address. An "industrial estate" name is not an address. A residential address with only a house name is not an address. These are time-wasting places where one has to drive around and make enquiries to find the exact address. Which increases delivery costs and makes the country a pig inefficient place to do business.

The proposed "Eircode" is not a postcode. It is a look-up table alternative for the lat/long co-ordinates of an address. A badly designed alternative that will not be widely available in GPS devices due to the fact that Ireland will take up as much memory as the rest of Europe.

One typo / mis-understanding in one character of the Eircode, are one directed to a completely different location, which could be tens of km away from the intended destination.

Yet another aspect of public infrastructure that the politicians / permanent government fail to get right. Because they don't care.

ukoda · 15-02-2015 6:05pm

Impetus wrote: »

In urban areas yes, in many cases, there is an address attached. In rural areas, no in most cases. A townland name is not an address. An "industrial estate" name is not an address. A residential address with only a house name is not an address. These are time-wasting places where one has to drive around and make enquiries to find the exact address. Which increases delivery costs and makes the country a pig inefficient place to do business.

The proposed "Eircode" is not a postcode. It is a look-up table alternative for the lat/long co-ordinates of an address. A badly designed alternative that will not be widely available in GPS devices due to the fact that Ireland will take up as much memory as the rest of Europe.

One typo / mis-understanding in one character of the Eircode, are one directed to a completely different location, which could be tens of km away from the intended destination.

Yet another aspect of public infrastructure that the politicians / permanent government fail to get right. Because they don't care.

You are incorrect about how much space it will take up. You probably made the same mistake I did and you are figuring that the 2gb database is needed to fit on a sat nav. I originally thought this and it was pointed out to me that I was incorrect. So I researched it and talked to some people and found out that what's needed for use on a sat nav amounts to about 200/250mb meaning it will easily fit on any sat nav.

You are also incorrect about entering a wrong digit and ending up miles away. Ericode database does have error checking built into it. That was revealed in the product guide.

You're post above is factualy incorrect.

In relation to your point on addresses. Yes you are correct. But using eircode means you have an address to fall back on. Using loc8 you have nothing to fall back on. Yes you can use the hierarchy to tell the place you need to be is 10 miles North or whatever. That's not much good to you if you are using roads. Which we do as we haven't mastered flying delivery vans yet that travel in straight lines. At least with an address attached you can ask for directions if all else fails.

Impetus · 15-02-2015 6:21pm

ukoda wrote: »

You are incorrect about how much space it will take up. You probably made the same mistake I did and you are figuring that the 2gb database is needed to fit on a sat nav. I originally thought this and it was pointed out to me that I was incorrect. So I researched it and talked to some people and found out that what's needed for use on a sat nav amounts to about 200/250mb meaning it will easily fit on any sat nav.

You are also incorrect about entering a wrong digit and ending up miles away. Ericode database does have error checking built into it. That was revealed in the product guide.

You're post above is factualy incorrect.

In relation to your point on addresses. Yes you are correct. But using eircode means you have an address to fall back on. Using loc8 you have nothing to fall back on. Yes you can use the hierarchy to tell the place you need to be is 10 miles North or whatever. That's not much good to you if you are using roads. Which we do as we haven't mastered flying delivery vans yet that travel in straight lines. At least with an address attached you can ask for directions if all else fails.

Assuming what you mean by "sat nav" is a GPS device, please explain in detail how one can create a workable GPS interface which will allow the user to enter one of close to 2 million Eircodes into a system, that should also be able to take instructions using the conventional town name, street, house number and fit that, together with the software, into many GB of memory.

The GPS market is very competitive, and a reliance on GPS to find an Irish address in the European context is like the tail wagging the dog, squared.

"Will you come over to my house tonight"? "Where do you live?"

"Z24 M3WQ"

I don't think so. Not to mention the international issues - every language pronounces letters of the alphabet slightly differently. Numbers are not a problem.

ukoda · 15-02-2015 6:31pm

Impetus wrote: »

Assuming what you mean by "sat nav" is a GPS device, please explain in detail how one can create a workable GPS interface which will allow the user to enter one of close to 2 million Eircodes into a system, that should also be able to take instructions using the conventional town name, street, house number and fit that, together with the software, into many GB of memory.

The GPS market is very competitive, and a reliance on GPS to find an Irish address in the European context is like the tail wagging the dog, squared.

"Will you come over to my house tonight"? "Where do you live?"

"Z24 M3WQ"

I don't think so. Not to mention the international issues - every language pronounces letters of the alphabet slightly differently. Numbers are not a problem.

Are you assuming sat navs have no data on Ireland already in them?

Because I'm already able to buy a sat nav that has all of Irelands addresses (and all of Europes) on it that can validate an Irish addresses (I.e. It knows BallyTown isn't in Co. Dublin, it knows what Bally's ARE in Dublin county tho. So it already had address validation and routing based on it.

Now let's look at what's needed for a sat nav to work with eircode

Maps of ireland (already on a sat nav)
House numbers (already on a sat nav)
Address line 1 (already on a sat nav)
Address line 2 (already on a sat nav)
Address line 3 (already on a sat nav)
Townland (already on a sat nav)
County (already on a sat nav)
Postcode (new to sat nav)
Geo coordinates (already on a sat nav)
Routing software capable of routing to all addresses in Ireland (already on a sat nav)

Now you tell me why it won't fit?

Bare in mind England has a database that's 10 times that of Irelands. (over 22 million) Not to mention the size of address databases in the rest of Europe. Now really explain how a country with the smallest address and postcode database in Europe is too big???

Impetus · 15-02-2015 6:45pm

ukoda wrote: »

Are you assuming sat navs have no data on Ireland already in them?

Because I'm already able to buy a sat nav that has all of Irelands addresses on it that can validate an Irish addreess (I.e. It knows BallyTown isn't in Co. Dublin, it knows what Bally's ARE in Dublin county tho. So it already had address validation and routing based on it.

Now let's look at what's needed for a sat nav to work with eircode

Maps of ireland (already on a sat nav)
House numbers (already on a sat nav)
Address line 1 (already on a sat nav)
Address line 2 (already on a sat nav)
Address line 3 (already on a sat nav)
Townland (already on a sat nav)
County (already on a sat nav)
Postcode (new to sat nav)
Geo coordinates (already on a sat nav)
Routing software capable of routing to all addresses in Ireland (already on a sat nav)

Now you tell me why it won't fit?

Bare in mind England has a database that's 10 times that of Irelands. (over 22 million) Not to mention the size of address databases in the rest of Europe. Now really explain how a country with the smallest address and postcode database in Europe is too big???

Britain's (ie GB) postcode is shared by on average 25 addresses. ie each code represents a range from eg 1 to 24 on road x etc. And most GPS devices on the market just look at the sector level of the postcode - ignoring the last two characters. eg you enter NW1 3TT and the GPS reads it as NW1 3. The TT is put in the dustbin. Entering the postcode at this level will show the town name, and have a short-list of road names and you enter the house number. But in GB you have a road name for each address. Ireland does not for about half the buildigs in the country.

I have a number of GPS devices (car and handheld and mobile phone). In Ireland not all road names are in the system. On any device. There is no consistency. The same devices work fine in mainland Europe.

ukoda · 15-02-2015 6:54pm

Impetus wrote: »

Britain's (ie GB) postcode is shared by on average 25 addresses. ie each code represents a range from eg 1 to 24 on road x etc. And most GPS devices on the market just look at the sector level of the postcode - ignoring the last two characters. eg you enter NW1 3TT and the GPS reads it as NW1 3. The TT is put in the dustbin. Entering the postcode at this level will show the town name, and have a short-list of road names and you enter the house number. But in GB you have a road name for each address. Ireland does not for about half the buildigs in the country.

I have a number of GPS devices (car and handheld and mobile phone). In Ireland not all road names are in the system. On any device. There is no consistency. The same devices work fine in mainland Europe.

On my sat nav or "gps device" if you prefer. I enter the FULL post code and it returns a list of usually 10-15 full addresses for me to pick from

The Royal Mail data base has 22 million postcodes on it and even more addresses and it fits just fine on my sat nav which also has the rest of Europe on it.

Again. Explain why Irelands relatively tiny address database won't fit on a sat nav?
Even if they have to add numerous extra addresses to sat navs for Ireland (which would be a good thing) this still does not come anywhere close to the size of the UK database. I'll ask again. Why won't Irelands full address database fit on a sat nav? When nearly all of Europe's address databases can?

Saying things like Ireland has no consistency with addresses does not explain away "capacity" concerns you raise. It's a decoy that's not relevant to this discussion which is purely about capacity.

Impetus · 15-02-2015 7:12pm

ukoda wrote: »

Saying things like Ireland has no consistency with addresses does not explain away "capacity" concerns you raise. It's a decoy that's not relevant to this discussion which is purely about capacity.

It does because half the addresses realities in Ireland are missing from the GPS virtual world. eg Garmin, Mercedes Benz, VW. You can't find the destination in many cases. The road doesn't exist in Garminland etc. Hence the need for more memory and data for Irish addresses than are present at the moment.

And why shoud everybody have to buy one or more GPS devices to navigate your view of Ireland? Or to deliver goods etc. And why create another account ID to point to everybody, whether they like it or not, for fraudsters to organize stolen data into neat tables?

The dumber the country, the longer the postcode.

National Postcodes to be introduced

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