National Postcodes to be introduced

wiopow

Some here remind me of the Japanese Holdouts who continued to defend their country long after the war was over.

Due to misplaced loyalty and isolation, the Hiroo Onoda's of this thread fight on in defence of Eircode even though those who were promoting it have long since abandoned their brave but foolish foray!

plodder

ukoda wrote: »

nope. I've made it pretty crystal clear where you've gone wrong in you workings.

You still can't answer the simple question why a sat nav can handle all of the UKs much larger address database but will struggle with Irelands much smaller one.

Are you some how under the impression that the alphabet used in eircode is much bigger in size to the alphabet used in the UK postcode?
Maybe the numbers are bigger??

Let's face facts here.
The UK database is called the PAF, it is so large that Royal Mail will not allow it to be downloaded as one file. They split it and zip it for download. Yet every postcode and address combination in the UK can fit on a sat nav that also had the rest of Europe on it.

The Irish database is called the ECAD it is about 10 times smaller than the PAF but of a similar format.

So, you think the PAF is just stored on satnavs, and the ECAD will also be?
And because the PAF is ten times larger than the ECAD, then what's the problem?

There's two problems there. First, the PAF isn't stored on satnavs because it's just a database of addresses, mapped to postcodes. As I've explained a couple of times why would you waste valuable memory on a device duplicating the fact that "10 High Street, Leicester" and "11 High Street Leicester" have the same postcode?

What is stored on a uk satnav is the database of postcodes mapped to co-ordinates (grid reference) and a database of thoroughfares mapped to postcode. So, that is 1.8 million times (postcode + thoroughfare name + grid reference). Not 29 million times anything.

The mapping companies probably have additional proprietary data that allows them to pinpoint individual addresses, but it doesn't come from the PAF, and I'd bet that it fits into the structure above rather wastefully replicating it.

ukoda

plodder wrote: »

So, you think the PAF is just stored on satnavs, and the ECAD will also be?
And because the PAF is ten times larger than the ECAD, then what's the problem?

There's two problems there. First, the PAF isn't stored on satnavs because it's just a database of addresses, mapped to postcodes. As I've explained a couple of times why would you waste valuable memory on a device duplicating the fact that "10 High Street, Leicester" and "11 High Street Leicester" have the same postcode?

What is stored on a uk satnav is the database of postcodes mapped to co-ordinates (grid reference) and a database of thoroughfares mapped to postcode. So, that is 1.8 million times (postcode + thoroughfare name + grid reference). Not 29 million times anything.

The mapping companies probably have additional proprietary data that allows them to pinpoint individual addresses, but it doesn't come from the PAF, and I'd bet that it fits into the structure above rather wastefully replicating it.

No no no. I never said the PAF is stored on sat navs and I made it clear that they will NOT need the entire ECAD on a sat nav either. That was the whole point I was making.

What I'm saying is. If they can use their tech to work a massive database like the PAF onto a sat nav. They can do the same with a tiny database like the ECAD.

the sat navs link more than just postcode + thoroughfare + geo's for the UK btw.

Entering a post code returns all possible combinations PLUS the entire postal address of each match. I just did in on my sat nav.

You seem to think that ericode is using some alien database format that isn't compatible with sat navs. It is not. Have you read the product guide? And compare it to the PAF product guide?

Do that excerise and you won't be making these silly arguments.

Eircode uses the same thoroughfare system that PAF does.

plodder

ukoda wrote: »

No no no. I never said the PAF is stored on sat navs and I made it clear that they will NOT need the entire ECAD on a sat nav either. That was the whole point I was making.

What I'm saying is. If they can use their tech to work a massive database like the PAF onto a sat nav. They can do the same with a tiny database like the ECAD.

That's a big IF. Because size isn't the only difference between the two databases. The UK postcode is fully hierarchical and the Irish one isn't.

the sat navs link more than just postcode + thoroughfare + geo's for the UK btw.

Entering a post code returns all possible combinations PLUS the entire postal address of each match. I just did in on my sat nav.

Sure, but that still doesn't mean there are 29 million records stored on your satnav.

You seem to think that ericode is using some alien database format that isn't compatible with sat navs. It is not. Have you read the product guide? And compare it to the PAF product guide?

This has nothing to do with database formats. It's about database structure. Databases used on devices like satnavs are highly customised to compress the data as small as possible and to eliminate all possible duplication but that is just a detail. What is more important is the structure of the data.

ukoda

plodder wrote: »

That's a big IF. Because size isn't the only difference between the two databases. The UK postcode is fully hierarchical and the Irish one isn't.

Sure, but that still doesn't mean there are 29 million records stored on your satnav.

This has nothing to do with database formats. It's about database structure. Databases used on devices like satnavs are highly customised to compress the data as small as possible and to eliminate all possible duplication but that is just a detail. What is more important is the structure of the data.

If it's all about structure. One question for you? Have you read the eircode product guide and do you know the structure of the eircode database? It's pretty much using an identical structure to PAF.

antoinolachtnai

murpho999 wrote: »

Why does a postcode have to be meaningful?

I used to live in Holland (a country often cited as efficient etc) and their postcode is 4 numbers and 2 letters.

My postcode was 2133HW.

It means nothing to the local area, absolutely nothing.

You mean that it is not culturally meaningful in the way a place name is?

I would be surprised if it is not meaningful to delivery drivers or people who sort parcels.

GerardKeating

plodder wrote: »

BT = Belfast, but covers the whole of Northern Ireland.

BT11 is the city centre of Belfast itself. You can find it on a map such as this one

http://free-postcode-maps.co.uk/postcode-area/bt-belfast-postcode-map/

BT1 11A is some street within that area.

@ukoda. Thanks for the correction about 1.8 million vs 2.2 million. But, you're just ignoring my point rather than rebutting it.

So you are saying that compared to Northern Ireland's Postcode, EirCode's are more descriptive/meaningful?

murpho999

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

You mean that it is not culturally meaningful in the way a place name is?

I would be surprised if it is not meaningful to delivery drivers or people who sort parcels.

As in the number or letters have no relationship or share any significance with the address/location in any way.

Yes, they would mean a lot to drivers and parcel sorters but their systems would look after that, just like they will here.

oscarBravo

plodder wrote: »

Here's a question for you. When someone is building a new house and they want to sign up for your service, they might or might not have an Eircode assigned, but it won't be reflected in Eircodes updates for up to three months hence, and then has to be adopted by Google etc. If Eircode was (more) hierarchical then your customer would already know the first five characters of their Eircode, because it would be the same as their neighbours...

It's logically impossible for all sets of neighbours to share the first five digits of a heirarchical postcode. If it's not clear why, think about it for a while.

The situation you describe is functionally identical to the potential customer who doesn't know his eircode. It's an edge case. I can live with edge cases.

plodder

oscarBravo wrote: »

It's logically impossible for all sets of neighbours to share the first five digits of a heirarchical postcode. If it's not clear why, think about it for a while.

Eh, yes. But you said your primary concern was finding the customer, and even in the odd case when they don't have the same prefix they will be close by.

The situation you describe is functionally identical to the potential customer who doesn't know his eircode. It's an edge case. I can live with edge cases.

Fair enough, but I'd say it's more than an edge case. New builds are a significant source of new activity for utilities and service providers. I believe the Royal mail have a special "Not yet built" product to cater for it.

This whole thread reminds me of that TV ad for some bank that's on at the moment. "Any bank will do". Here it's a case that people are so frustrated by all the years of faffing around, that "any postcode will do".

oscarBravo

plodder wrote: »

Eh, yes. But you said your primary concern was finding the customer, and even in the odd case when they don't have the same prefix they will be close by.

If they're close by an existing customer, they can tell us who that customer is and where they are in relation to them, and we'll find them pretty easily.

What you need to understand is the sheer waste of time that's involved in the simple task of figuring out where someone is. If I can cut that time by 90% - and there's no reason to believe that I can't - then that's a huge saving for me. Like I said, I can live with edge cases.

This whole thread reminds me of that TV ad for some bank that's on at the moment. "Any bank will do". Here it's a case that people are so frustrated by all the years of faffing around, that "any postcode will do".

To an extent that's true. If I was told I had to wait another few years for an efficient way to locate customers in order to alleviate the concerns of a few people who are unhappy that their preferred solution wasn't implemented, I'd be pretty pissed.

This isn't how I would have implemented it, but it's how it's being implemented, and it's several orders of magnitude better that what we currently have, which is bugger all. The only reason I'm weighing in here is that some people seem convinced that the whole thing will be a complete disaster, which I just don't understand.

Jack180570

You can get precise postcode for anywhere in Ireland with the last few years with Loc8 Code. We use it all the time for our businesses with the code provided by the customers. Currently over 90 % of the customers are able to get their own Loc8 Code.

oscarBravo wrote: »

This is the way I've been looking at it.

At the moment, if someone rings us to see whether we can provide a service (wireless broadband), we need to figure out where they are. This almost invariably involves a process of giving directions, with us following along on Google Maps. It's slow, it's tedious, and it's error-prone.

In a few months' time, I expect that we'll be able to ask potential customers if they know their eircode. If they do, we'll have a precise location a couple of seconds later. If not, we'll do the directions dance.

Similarly, when it comes to actually visiting a customer's premises, either Google Maps will integrate eircodes, in which case our engineers can navigate straight to the customer using their eircode, or else we'll have an easy lookup to a lat/long.

I've seen the argument that people might just as well memorise their latitude and longitude as their eircode, which is nonsense. How many people have you met who had the WGS84 coordinates of their house memorised? How many people in countries with postcodes don't know theirs?

ukoda

Jack180570 wrote: »

You can get precise postcode for anywhere in Ireland with the last few years with Loc8 Code. We use it all the time for our businesses with the code provided by the customers. Currently over 90 % of the customers are able to get their own Loc8 Code.

The poster said they use google maps... Can you use loc8 with Google maps? No you can't.

I can tell you're a Cork man by the expression "with the last few years" at least the locals support loc8code, that's a great statistic of 90%.... Sounds good, but what's the customer base? 90% of 10 customers is very different to 90% of 100,000 customers.

There are no published statistics on the use of Loc8, just vague claims of "it's widely used"
This annoys me greatly. If you believe in your code then publish some stats that will show it off.

antoinolachtnai

murpho999 wrote: »

As in the number or letters have no relationship or share any significance with the address/location in any way.

I don't think this is true. adjacent buildings have the same or similar codes.

See maps like the ones at http://www.z24.nl/geld/dit-zijn-de-10-rijkste-postcodes-van-nederland-443779

Yes, they would mean a lot to drivers and parcel sorters but their systems would look after that, just like they will here.

I am having a hard time believing that parcel sorters in Amsterdam use a computer system to sort parcels and that drivers use a system to check the parcels in their van before departing.

murpho999

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

I don't think this is true. adjacent buildings have the same or similar codes.

See maps like the ones at http://www.z24.nl/geld/dit-zijn-de-10-rijkste-postcodes-van-nederland-443779

Yes they do but my point is that the numbers are nothing do with the actual area they were just randomly assigned.

I am having a hard time believing that parcel sorters in Amsterdam use a computer system to sort parcels and that drivers use a system to check the parcels in their van before departing.

A system doesn't necessarily have to be computers does it , if a driver uses his is own method on a sheet of paper to sort his mail then that's his business but it's still a system.

antoinolachtnai

I see what you mean by random, but this is not what is meant when we say that eircode codes are randomly (or pseudorandomly) assigned. Every eircode has the final four characters completely different from their neighbours.

The codes shown in the dutch maps aren't randomly assigned, certainly not in the sense that eircode is randomly assigned. You can see that all the codes in a particular number range are in a particular part of the city. All the 224x codes are close together for instance, and all the 2244 houses are very close together.

This is absolutely not the case for eircode.

Re systems, sure, you can have a paper system or a system 'in your head' for the dutch system.

But you can't do that with the eircode system. You need to look up each individual code (in a proprietary codex) to have any more than a very vague idea where it is located.

larchill

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

I see what you mean by random, but this is not what is meant when we say that eircode codes are randomly (or pseudorandomly) assigned. Every eircode has the final four characters completely different from their neighbours.

The codes shown in the dutch maps aren't randomly assigned, certainly not in the sense that eircode is randomly assigned. You can see that all the codes in a particular number range are in a particular part of the city. All the 224x codes are close together for instance, and all the 2244 houses are very close together.

This is absolutely not the case for eircode.

Re systems, sure, you can have a paper system or a system 'in your head' for the dutch system.

But you can't do that with the eircode system. You need to look up each individual code (in a proprietary codex) to have any more than a very vague idea where it is located.

As far as I know Dutch codes are of the form 1234AB. The 1234 part isn't random, & adjacent areas are in sequence: 1234, 1235, 1236, etc? Presumably the more significant digit is the area, eg: 1 = Amsterdam, etc? Is the AB part random?

antoinolachtnai

No, the end part is grouped together as well.

There is a description here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postal_codes_in_the_Netherlands

And another here

http://www.alliescomputing.com/innovation/address-format/Netherlands

murpho999

I was answering the point that the numbers assigned to an area is nothing something that relates to the area as mentioned in another post.

The fact that a Dutch neighbourhood starts with 1234 and the next is 1235 does not mean that a person will not still have to look up some sort of database to know where to go.
Having lived in The Netherlands, I can assure you that if you were in Area 1234 and needed to go to 1235, you would be none the wiser as to where to go just because the numbers are consecutive.

There seems to be an obsession on here that neighbouring buildings have to have a related code but no real reason is stated as to why it's required and ignores that that's what the first 3 characters do.

Alun

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

No, the end part is grouped together as well.

Not really, at least not to the degree that it would be of any use to you.

As an example, I lived in 5508HD, this effectively referred to a whole street in a large estate. The street parallel to mine was 5508HB, but the street at one end of my street that both of these streets joined on to was 5508HC. Now, they are grouped, but if you were standing in 5508HD and were told you had to go to 5508HC, you'd have no idea where to go. Within a very short distance you'll also find 5508EE and 5508DW, again no obvious grouping or anything that, without some kind of assistance would help you in locating them.

If you want to explore Dutch post codes, just type one in to Google maps and then click on houses in surrounding streets and it'll tell you the post code.

plodder

Alun wrote: »

Not really, at least not to the degree that it would be of any use to you.

As an example, I lived in 5508HD, this effectively referred to a whole street in a large estate. The street parallel to mine was 5508HB, but the street at one end of my street that both of these streets joined on to was 5508HC. Now, they are grouped, but if you were standing in 5508HD and were told you had to go to 5508HC, you'd have no idea where to go. Within a very short distance you'll also find 5508EE and 5508DW, again no obvious grouping or anything that, without some kind of assistance would help you in locating them.

If you want to explore Dutch post codes, just type one in to Google maps and then click on houses in surrounding streets and it'll tell you the post code.

Hierarchy in a postcode is only of limited use for navigation. It's more for grouping. Take the example of the pizza delivery guy with a list of addresses to deliver to. Just by sorting the addresses in simple alphabetic postcode order, gives you a fairly simple reliable routing order.

Addresses with the same postcode are definitely close to each other. Addresses with similar postcodes are probably close to each other as well.

ukoda

plodder wrote: »

Hierarchy in a postcode is only of limited use for navigation. It's more for grouping. Take the example of the pizza delivery guy with a list of addresses to deliver to. Just by sorting the addresses in simple alphabetic postcode order, gives you a fairly simple reliable routing order.

Addresses with the same postcode are definitely close to each other. Addresses with similar postcodes are probably close to each other as well.

Pizza delivery guy:

He looks at his list of addresses, he either knows them and knows where to go, or he looks them up on a navigation device.

As I've said before. We don't travel in straight lines. Knowing that code A is left of code B is completely useless for a delivery guy, he still doesn't know what road to take? Is it one way street? Etc etc.

plodder

ukoda wrote: »

Pizza delivery guy:

He looks at his list of addresses, he either knows them and knows where to go, or he looks them up on a navigation device.

As I've said before. We don't travel in straight lines. Knowing that code A is left of code B is completely useless for a delivery guy, he still doesn't know what road to take? Is it one way street? Etc etc.

:rolleyes: Routing in this context means deciding before you leave, which order to visit each delivery point. There's nothing to stop you using an ordinary satnav to get from A to B, and B to C, and C to D, etc. It's also for helping to decide if you can deliver to a particular area.

ukoda

plodder wrote: »

:rolleyes: Routing in this context means deciding before you leave, which order to visit each delivery point. There's nothing to stop you using an ordinary satnav to get from A to B, and B to C, and C to D, etc. It's also for helping to decide if you can deliver to a particular area.

You missed my point. What if A C B D is the best route for DRIVING. How will he know? Only by looking at route planning software

antoinolachtnai

You would know, though, that 5508HD was within a fairly short distance of 5508CC or 5508EE. If you had a bundle of parcels, you could group the parcels together using the code and you would know that these two parcels were for addresses that were fairly close together. If you were checking a bundle of parcels, you would be able to tell pretty quickly whether a parcel was for somewhere way outside your delivery area.

I mention parcels, but it could be doctors doing house calls, engineers making visits, or any other sort of situation where service providers need to visit a premises.

You just can't do that with eircode. You would need to look up every single code to make use of the code, beyond the very general delivery area information provided by the first three letters. (Incidentally, adjacent delivery areas will have completely different three-letter codes, so South-East Kerry could be TWK and South-West Kerry could be LDT.)

Lots of placenames are non-unique or similar in Ireland, even within the same small area, so there is a real need to group houses in the code.

plodder

ukoda wrote: »

You missed my point. What if A C B D is the best route for DRIVING. How will he know? Only by looking at route planning software

I'm not getting into this again. I make a point. You make a different point (implying there is something wrong with mine, but there isn't) and then say I missed your point.

Your point in this case being that there might be a better routing available. So, what? Yes, there might be. Why force a pizza delivery guy to buy some software package. What if I'm delivering my kid's birthday invitations? Is that a better example?

Alun

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

You would know, though, that 5508HD was within a fairly short distance of 5508CC or 5508EE. If you had a bundle of parcels, you could group the parcels together using the code and you would know that these two parcels were for addresses that were fairly close together. If you were checking a bundle of parcels, you would be able to tell pretty quickly whether a parcel was for somewhere way outside your delivery area.

To be honest, for delivery grouping at that level the only information necessary would be the 4 digits. 5508 is one large estate in Veldhoven, type "5508 Veldhoven" into Google maps to see the area it covers. I wouldn't imagine a company delivering parcels would need to go below that level for delivery grouping.

ukoda

plodder wrote: »

I'm not getting into this again. I make a point. You make a different point (implying there is something wrong with mine, but there isn't) and then say I missed your point.

Your point in this case being that there might be a better routing available. So, what? Yes, there might be. Why force a pizza delivery guy to buy some software package. What if I'm delivering my kid's birthday invitations? Is that a better example?

Fair enough. difference of opinion. I don't think there is anywhere near the perceived benefit of a hierarchical code that people claim. You do.

but I'm allowed my opinion and im allowed disagree with you.

antoinolachtnai

No postcode (nor any computer program of any type) will give you optimal routing. There are too many factors. Routing is an extremely hard problem. I do not think anybody would choose a postcode design based on its routing effectiveness. A hierarchical code has no disadvantage over a non-hierarchical postcode for getting as close as possible to optimal routing using a computer program. A hierarchical code has many other advantages.

plodder

Alun wrote: »

To be honest, for delivery grouping at that level the only information necessary would be the 4 digits. 5508 is one large estate in Veldhoven, type "5508 Veldhoven" into Google maps to see the area it covers. I wouldn't imagine a company delivering parcels would need to go below that level for delivery grouping.

Are you saying that a courier might go to 5508AA then 5508AB, then maybe back to 5508AA and then back to 5508AB? I think it's more likely they will go to 5508AA and deliver to all addresses there, and then go on to 5508AB. They might do it the other way round of course. But all of the characters are important for delivery.