National Postcodes to be introduced

antoinolachtnai

I would say the delivery man, in practice, would stop the van at each of these postcodes. It would be handy if the items were grouped stop by stoop.

Alun

plodder wrote: »

Are you saying that a courier might go to 5508AA then 5508AB, then maybe back to 5508AA and then back to 5508AB? I think it's more likely they will go to 5508AA and deliver to all addresses there, and then go on to 5508AB. They might do it the other way round of course. But all of the characters are important for delivery.

I'm talking about grouping not low level routing. AA and AB are probably adjacent streets, but there's no guarantee, for example that BA and BB are any closer to AA and AB than, say, HA or HB. You'd still need some kind of navigation software to work out exact driving routes.

plodder

Alun wrote: »

I'm talking about grouping not low level routing. AA and AB are probably adjacent streets, but there's no guarantee, for example that BA and BB are any closer to AA and AB than, say, HA or HB. You'd still need some kind of navigation software to work out exact driving routes.

Dont' forget each postcode is not a house. It's a street or part of a street. So say you have six deliveries to make in the 5508 area.

5508 AA (house number 10)
5508 AB (house number 1)
5508 AA (house number 9)
5508 AB (house number 2)
5508 AA (house number 6)
5508 AB (house number 4)

You don't need software to know that following the order above is not efficient and it would always be more efficient to do it in this order.

5508 AA (house number 10)
5508 AA (house number 6)
5508 AA (house number 9)
5508 AB (house number 1)
5508 AB (house number 2)
5508 AB (house number 4)

Maybe you need software to get the optimal route, but the point is that both levels of hierarchy are used here to work out a still efficient route by hand. <edit/> you can type those codes into google maps, and see that they are actually close to each other.

a65b2cd

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Incidentally, adjacent delivery areas will have completely different three-letter codes, so South-East Kerry could be TWK and South-West Kerry could be LDT.

Have these been published? I thought it was generally a letter and two digits? I know in Dublin they will be like D14 and D15 but I haven't seen anything saying non-Dublin routing codes will be deliberately randomised.

Alun

At a micro level you're right, but although the streets with a code of 5508 A* are close together, as are those beginning with 5508 followed by any letter, there's no obvious pattern to how close any of those first letter groupings are to each other. C borders on to V and P for example.

antoinolachtnai

a65b2cd wrote: »

Have these been published? I thought it was generally a letter and two digits? I know in Dublin they will be like D14 and D15 but I haven't seen anything saying non-Dublin routing codes will be deliberately randomised.

The list hasn't been published. It is some sort of big secret.

The rules are at 2.4 in the design document linked below.

https://t.co/g6Vc7n5b3A

According to this, the first letter will be 'randomly distributed in a manner that facilitates manual sortation by the USP'.

(This statement is obviously self-contradictory. It is typical of the shoddy reasoning behind the design. There is another paragraph on page 67 which says something slightly different on the same topic.)

Sam Russell

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The list hasn't been published. It is some sort of big secret.

The rules are at 2.4 in the design document linked below.

https://t.co/g6Vc7n5b3A

According to this, the first letter will be 'randomly distributed in a manner that facilitates manual sortation by the USP'.

(This statement is obviously self-contradictory. It is typical of the shoddy reasoning behind the design. There is another paragraph on page 67 which says something slightly different on the same topic.)

The 'secret' nature of the whole implementation plan appears to be based on the wonderful roll out of the Irish Water project, which it resembles in many other respects.

Will anyone go to gaol over postcodes - I doubt it. However, many people may like to put the implementers in gaol for such a poor design.

antoinolachtnai

Eircode hasn't been so much 'implemented' as thrown together.

plodder

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The list hasn't been published. It is some sort of big secret.

The rules are at 2.4 in the design document linked below.

https://t.co/g6Vc7n5b3A

According to this, the first letter will be 'randomly distributed in a manner that facilitates manual sortation by the USP'.

(This statement is obviously self-contradictory. It is typical of the shoddy reasoning behind the design. There is another paragraph on page 67 which says something slightly different on the same topic.)

That's the first time I've seen that document. I take it, it hasn't been published officially as it looks like someone scanned it rather hastily.

I notice one thing it says about hierarchical codes

if structure/hierarchy exists in the postcode itself. it will be used by insurance companies. school districts, etc. as a quick and convenient way to implement their policies and all of the issues we have identified with area based postcode systems would be re-introduced to our unique postcode design

quick and convenient is obviously not a good thing

Sam Russell

plodder wrote: »

That's the first time I've seen that document. I take it, it hasn't been published officially as it looks like someone scanned it rather hastily.

I notice one thing it says about hierarchical codes

if structure/hierarchy exists in the postcode itself. it will be used by insurance companies. school districts, etc. as a quick and convenient way to implement their policies and all of the issues we have identified with area based postcode systems would be re-introduced to our unique postcode design

quick and convenient is obviously not a good thing

I think that Insurance Companies and other large entities have no difficulty in implementing systems that discriminate on any basis. The so called post code lottery syndrome will be implemented with or without post codes.

The Eircode system just causes problems for small users.

ukoda

plodder wrote: »

quick and convenient is obviously not a good thing

Not when it comes to discriminating is what they mean.

They have given their reasons for not having a hierarchical code. Some like it, some don't. But it was chosen to be a random code for what they believe is a valid reason.

Not everyone can always get exactly what they want.

It is unfair for people here to claim the code was "thrown together" as it implies they didn't even consider the options. They did according to the documents I've seen posted here and in the media. People are attacking the code because it's not the one they wanted. And now every single thing about the code is a disaster in their eyes.

Sam Russell

ukoda wrote: »

Not when it comes to discriminating is what they mean.

They have given their reasons for not having a hierarchical code. Some like it, some don't. But it was chosen to be a random code for what they believe is a valid reason.

Not everyone can always get exactly what they want.

It is unfair for people here to claim the code was "thrown together" as it implies they didn't even consider the options. They did according to the documents I've seen posted here and in the media. People are attacking the code because it's not the one they wanted. And now every single thing about the code is a disaster in their eyes.

I think that the fact that it is all secret just days from the expected (but delayed) launch says a lot about it. The fact that emergency legislation has to be rushed through the Dail also says a lot about its design - a bit like Irish Water.

ukoda

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think that the fact that it is all secret just days from the expected (but delayed) launch says a lot about it. The fact that emergency legislation has to be rushed through the Dail also says a lot about its design - a bit like Irish Water.

What's a secret? We were given a full description of the code and a full product guide.

Do you refer to the launch? Launch plans usually aren't public knowledge, companies don't publish their marketing plans before they launch their campaigns. It's common practice. Have you ever heard Apple tell you their marketing plans and detailed distribution plan for the iPhone? No they just tell you what it is and when you can have it. Which is what we know about eircode.

The legislation needed here was to just make specific reference to eircode in data protection laws. which is a good thing. It's a very different situation to Irish waters legislation change

antoinolachtnai

ukoda wrote: »

Not when it comes to discriminating is what they mean.

They have given their reasons for not having a hierarchical code. Some like it, some don't. But it was chosen to be a random code for what they believe is a valid reason.

Not everyone can always get exactly what they want.

It is unfair for people here to claim the code was "thrown together" as it implies they didn't even consider the options. They did according to the documents I've seen posted here and in the media. People are attacking the code because it's not the one they wanted. And now every single thing about the code is a disaster in their eyes.

I don't know what 'people' are doing, but I am attacking it because it is shoddy and incoherent. The code is deliberately designed to be as meaningless and inconvenient as possible.

The code was designed in direct opposition to specific advice sought from the data protection commissioner. The code creates pointless uncertainty about personal privacy. That seems pretty shoddy to me.

Only one non-government stakeholder was consulted about the overall design. That seems shoddy to me.

The documentation is self-contradictory at best and completely meaningless at worst. Take this sentence on page 66:

'The method of manual sortation is delivery driven; therefore it also has the advantage of embedding non random intuition into the post town element of the postcode'

What exactly does that sentence mean? I am pretty sure it means nothing. How can sortation be manual? How can a human characteristic be 'embedded', least of all in a seven-character code? This sentence and the sentences around it certainly do not amount to 'reasoning'. That is pretty shoddy.

Internationally accepted best practice has effectively been thrown out the window, for no good reason. That is pretty shoddy.

The design does not take into account or make any reference whatsoever to the practical problems of accurate implementation. That is pretty shoddy.

The design ignores specifically relevant international best practice in the field of human factors and confounds it with irrelevant theoretical work in the field of cognitive science. That is pretty shoddy.

The design document shows as clearly as possible that the claims on the eircode website about this being a postcode for the twenty-first century are a tissue of lies. This is a postcode for the incumbent universal service provider to deliver flat mail, a business that is as dead as it can be without actually falling over in a heap.

It is as shoddy as can be.

ukoda

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

I don't know what 'people' are doing, but I am attacking it because it is shoddy and incoherent. The code is deliberately designed to be as meaningless and inconvenient as possible.

The code was designed in direct opposition to specific advice sought from the data protection commissioner. The code creates pointless uncertainty about personal privacy. That seems pretty shoddy to me.

Only one non-government stakeholder was consulted about the overall design. That seems shoddy to me.

The documentation is self-contradictory at best and completely meaningless at worst. Take this sentence on page 66:



What exactly does that sentence mean? I am pretty sure it means nothing. How can sortation be manual? How can a human characteristic be 'embedded', least of all in a seven-character code? This sentence and the sentences around it certainly do not amount to 'reasoning'. That is pretty shoddy.

Internationally accepted best practice has effectively been thrown out the window, for no good reason. That is pretty shoddy.

The design does not take into account or make any reference whatsoever to the practical problems of accurate implementation. That is pretty shoddy.

The design ignores specifically relevant international best practice in the field of human factors and confounds it with irrelevant theoretical work in the field of cognitive science. That is pretty shoddy.

The design document shows as clearly as possible that the claims on the eircode website about this being a postcode for the twenty-first century are a tissue of lies. This is a postcode for the incumbent universal service provider to deliver flat mail, a business that is as dead as it can be without actually falling over in a heap.

It is as shoddy as can be.

2 things

Irelands situation of 30% non unique addresses makes a unique code to each priority necessary. And any such code would require the same legislation.

What is international best practice?? Each country has it's own designed postcode, some hierchial, some not, some group houses, some don't, some group huge areas, some identify small areas. And most are decades old. It is not best practice to follow designs thought up decades ago.

Like I say, there is no perfect postcode

Sam Russell

ukoda wrote: »

What's a secret? We were given a full description of the code and a full product guide.

Do you refer to the launch? Launch plans usually aren't public knowledge, companies don't publish their marketing plans before they launch their campaigns. It's common practice. Have you ever heard Apple tell you their marketing plans and detailed distribution plan for the iPhone? No they just tell you what it is and when you can have it. Which is what we know about eircode.

The legislation needed here was to just make specific reference to eircode in data protection laws. which is a good thing. It's a very different situation to Irish waters legislation change

What has a postcode got to do with a marketing campaign unless, of course, the intention is to make money out of it.

The legislation is needed - that is enough to indicate an afterthought. The data commissioner was ignored - and the new commissioner has been persuaded not to look to hard.

It is very like Irish Water. Lots of money going to consultants, and lots of money going outside the state.

ukoda

Sam Russell wrote: »

What has a postcode got to do with a marketing campaign unless, of course, the intention is to make money out of it.

The legislation is needed - that is enough to indicate an afterthought. The data commissioner was ignored - and the new commissioner has been persuaded not to look to hard.

It is very like Irish Water. Lots of money going to consultants, and lots of money going outside the state.

It needs a marketing campaign as it's something new for 2.2 million households, it would be stupid not to have a media education campaign behind that. Same as they did for soarview

I will not comment on the fact that you are questioning the integrity of the new data protection commissioner.

antoinolachtnai

ukoda wrote: »

2 things

Irelands situation of 30% non unique addresses makes a unique code to each priority necessary. And any such code would require the same legislation.

Well that is a different topic from the general design. Unique code per house was not in fact a requirement at the beginning of the tender process.

And no, it is not a foregone conclusion that any code that identifies individual houses would necessarily require the same legislation.

What is international best practice??

The UPU actually used to have a document in relation to best practice, but it is no longer published.

It seems to me that best practice is:

- meaningful code
- open IPR, transparently managed
- hierarchical/structured
- all-digits, of if there are letters they are at specific locations
- plan in place for management of code changes
- part of a coherent plan for addressing

Eircode is none of these things.

Each country has it's own designed postcode, some hierchial, some not,

Can you tell us about some countries which have non-hierarchical postcodes?

some group houses, some don't, some group huge areas, some identify small areas. And most are decades old. It is not best practice to follow designs thought up decades ago.

Like I say, there is no perfect postcode

There, is however, such a thing as a postcode that is less terrible than Eircode.

Sam Russell

ukoda wrote: »

It needs a marketing campaign as it's something new for 2.2 million households, it would be stupid not to have a media education campaign behind that. Same as they did for soarview

I will not comment on the fact that you are questioning the integrity of the new data protection commissioner.

I think the Saorview campaign suffered from the same disease - it was a complete waste of time and money. The adverts were put on TVs that did not receive the soon to be stopped services instead of just putting a message on the analogue service along the lines of 'This service is due discontinue - get a STB to continue watching these channels'. It was also given a daft name - also part Irish, part English.

I am not questioning the new commissioner - just the decision regarding privacy fell into the inter-interregnum between commissioners. The predecessor had suggested actions which probably informed the proposed legislation. The new commissioner will only look at it later.

ukoda

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think the Saorview campaign suffered from the same disease - it was a complete waste of time and money. The adverts were put on TVs that did not receive the soon to be stopped services instead of just putting a message on the analogue service along the lines of 'This service is due discontinue - get a STB to continue watching these channels'. It was also given a daft name - also part Irish, part English.

I am not questioning the new commissioner - just the decision regarding privacy fell into the inter-interregnum between commissioners. The predecessor had suggested actions which probably informed the proposed legislation. The new commissioner will only look at it later.

Maybe soarview isn't the best example but you know what I mean, it needs a public awareness campaign. If they don't matket it, then no one will use it and then you'll blame them for not marketing it.

They can't just introduce the code and not invest in awareness, or they'll end up like loc8code, no one using it.

(Of course I'm aware that people will jump to say loc8 is used "widely" but can anyone provide any figures on loc8 usage? I'm genuinely asking if they can)

Sam Russell

ukoda wrote: »

Maybe soarview isn't the best example but you know what I mean, it needs a public awareness campaign. If they don't matket it, then no one will use it and then you'll blame them for not marketing it.

They can't just introduce the code and not invest in awareness, or they'll end up like loc8code, no one using it.

(Of course I'm aware that people will jump to say loc8 is used "widely" but can anyone provide any figures on loc8 usage? I'm genuinely asking if they can)

They could just get the government departments to put it on every missive - and then people would see it, and be aware of it. But since the intention is to make money out of it, it must be marketed.

If it works, it will be used. If it does not, then it will not - and no amount of marketing will make any difference.

thierry14

If anyone could answer these questions I would be very grateful.

Will this really launch in spring of this year?

Will the database be available to the public?

Will the postcode "A65 F4E2" be able to translate to lat and long geocodes?

If it's an accurate system, it's a potential game changer for my line of work.

ukoda

thierry14 wrote: »

If anyone could answer these questions I would be very grateful.

Will this really launch in spring of this year?

Will the database be available to the public?

Will the postcode "A65 F4E2" be able to translate to lat and long geocodes?

If it's an accurate system, it's a potential game changer for my line of work.

I don't see any indication it won't launch in spring

It will be available to anyone who pays for it as far as I can tell, only free for public to look up a few codes on line

The code will link to geo co ordinates via the database yes

SpaceTime

Spring 2025 isn't it?

Irish spring is March, April and May .. so they have a while.

Carawaystick

SpaceTime wrote: »

Spring 2025 isn't it?

Irish spring is March, April and May .. so they have a while.

If September is the middle of autumn, and October is the end of autumn, and they literally in Irish, are then April is the end of spring.

yuloni

This post has been deleted.

murpho999

Carawaystick wrote: »

If September is the middle of autumn, and October is the end of autumn, and they literally in Irish, are then April is the end of spring.

Off topic but Met Eireann start Spring on March 1st.
From their website: on the basis of air temperature, seasons are regarded as three-month periods as follows: December to February - winter, March to May - spring, June to August- summer and September to November - autumn.
.

Source

Schools in Ireland still talk about the old Celtic/Pagan calendar that starts Spring on Feb 1st and s just wrong to be honest. Months in Irish language based on this too.
After all August is peak summer holiday season despite being Autumn in old calendar.

thierry14

ukoda wrote: »

I don't see any indication it won't launch in spring

It will be available to anyone who pays for it as far as I can tell, only free for public to look up a few codes on line

The code will link to geo co ordinates via the database yes

Just 1 more question ukoda.

Might sound stupid here, but where did they get the lat/long for the 2.2 million premises around the country to translate to an accurate eircode?

Did someone physically go to all these premises with a sat nav and record the co ordinates?

Like say in an estate of 100 houses, each will get an unique eircode.

Will that eircode point exactly to that house on google maps when I put in that eircode?

Even awkward one's like an address of say Mighty Cafe, Hospital Road, Clifden.

If the eircode is unique to each building will it point me to the exact address of Mighty Cafe on the map or just somewhere on Hospital Road?

Sheldons Brain

thierry14 wrote: »

Just 1 more question ukoda.

Might sound stupid here, but where did they get the lat/long for the 2.2 million premises around the country to translate to an accurate eircode?

Did someone physically go to all these premises with a sat nav and record the co ordinates?

Like say in an estate of 100 houses, each will get an unique eircode.

Will that eircode point exactly to that house on google maps when I put in that eircode?

Even awkward one's like an address of say Mighty Cafe, Hospital Road, Clifden.

If the eircode is unique to each building will it point me to the exact address of Mighty Cafe on the map or just somewhere on Hospital Road?

Geodirectory has the basis data already to do this, certainly no problem for finding a business. This data was collected by postmen.

Carawaystick

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

Geodirectory has the basis data already to do this, certainly no problem for finding a business. This data was collected by postmen.

How does it work for duplexes?