National Postcodes to be introduced

ukoda

Carawaystick wrote: »

How does it work for duplexes?

They'll have to have the same geo's but different eircodes I'd imagine, so the database will have the address and geo's for the building and will also have code ABC = top floor or Apt 2 and code XYZ = ground floor, geos have to be the same tho

plodder

Nearly, all the information they need to generate Eircodes is already in Geodirectory - the locations, addresses, post towns, everything. It should be possible to generate the codes, the ECAD, the ECAF from a simple database application. It's money for old rope and lets hope a good chunk of the 30 million is going to An Post, to recognise this.

ukoda

plodder wrote: »

Nearly, all the information they need to generate Eircodes is already in Geodirectory - the locations, addresses, post towns, everything. It should be possible to generate the codes, the ECAD, the ECAF from a simple database application. It's money for old rope and lets hope a good chunk of the 30 million is going to An Post, to recognise this.

The figure that's being paid to An Post for use of the geo directory is public knowledge. You don't have to hope anything, you can find out with a Google search

EDIT: I'm not being awkward not telling you the figure btw, I genuinely don't know for sure, I posted on here before that it was 10 million but I think somebody may have corrected me on it, and it's paid over a period of 10 years I think

ukoda

thierry14 wrote: »

Just 1 more question ukoda.

Might sound stupid here, but where did they get the lat/long for the 2.2 million premises around the country to translate to an accurate eircode?

Did someone physically go to all these premises with a sat nav and record the co ordinates?

Like say in an estate of 100 houses, each will get an unique eircode.

Will that eircode point exactly to that house on google maps when I put in that eircode?

Even awkward one's like an address of say Mighty Cafe, Hospital Road, Clifden.

If the eircode is unique to each building will it point me to the exact address of Mighty Cafe on the map or just somewhere on Hospital Road?

As another poster pointed out, its will use An Post's Geo Directory for the lat/lon codes for each property, this is highly accurate to be fair to An Post.

from what we can tell so far, Each property has its own eircode with its own lat/lon attached to it, so the code should point directly to that building and not just the street or area. So entering the code on Google Maps or a Sat Nav will bring you to that exact address. Now of course theres arguments on here that neither Google maps nor Sat Navs will support the code, but i don't believe that for a minute.

Reuben1210

When is the due date for the implementation of these postcodes?

OssianSmyth

Reuben1210 wrote: »

When is the due date for the implementation of these postcodes?

The most recent estimate from the Minister is June this year.
http://www.newstalk.com/Draft-legislation-aimed-at-addressing-concerns-around-Eircode-data-protection-approved

LeinsterDub

OssianSmyth wrote: »

The most recent estimate from the Minister is June this year.
http://www.newstalk.com/Draft-legislation-aimed-at-addressing-concerns-around-Eircode-data-protection-approved

He explained that if the legislation passes as expected, the system will begin rolling out in June of this year.

So basically he said there would be a June this year. Post codes not so much commitment

murpho999

LeinsterDub wrote: »

So basically he said there would be a June this year. Post codes not so much commitment

Think you need to listen again.
He clearly states that everyone will be notified of their Eircode by the end of May.

recedite

ukoda wrote: »

As another poster pointed out, its will use An Post's Geo Directory for the lat/lon codes for each property, this is highly accurate to be fair to An Post.

from what we can tell so far, Each property has its own eircode with its own lat/lon attached to it, so the code should point directly to that building and not just the street or area. So entering the code on Google Maps or a Sat Nav will bring you to that exact address. Now of course theres arguments on here that neither Google maps nor Sat Navs will support the code, but i don't believe that for a minute.

What you say is fair enough, but when you say "Each property has its own eircode with its own lat/lon attached to it"
It disguises the fact that the eircode itself is just a meaningless random number. They are PPS numbers for houses.

But (when the project is finished) these PPS numbers could be used to look-up the actual geo co-ordinates of the property on an official database, which is derived from Geodirectory. It may well happen that Google and the various Sat nav companies will pay for access to the database, and then offer the look-up for free on their own devices. Or maybe they won't.

Maybe unofficial websites will also appear, where you will be able to look-up not only the geo co-ordinates of the eircode, but also the names of the people living there, and what the average house prices and income levels are for people in the area. Or maybe not.
These are the sort of concerns that the data protection commissioner is worried about. And why the Minister can't say whether the enabling legislation will be passed, or when.

clewbays

recedite wrote: »

Maybe unofficial websites will also appear, where you will be able to look-up not only the geo co-ordinates of the eircode, but also the names of the people living there

That would not be allowed under data protection laws unless you had explicitly provided your name for that purpose. The DPC would prosecute such a website. Eircodes are not directly connected to people.

ukoda

recedite wrote: »

What you say is fair enough, but when you say "Each property has its own eircode with its own lat/lon attached to it"
It disguises the fact that the eircode itself is just a meaningless random number. They are PPS numbers for houses.

But (when the project is finished) these PPS numbers could be used to look-up the actual geo co-ordinates of the property on an official database, which is derived from Geodirectory. It may well happen that Google and the various Sat nav companies will pay for access to the database, and then offer the look-up for free on their own devices. Or maybe they won't.

Maybe unofficial websites will also appear, where you will be able to look-up not only the geo co-ordinates of the eircode, but also the names of the people living there, and what the average house prices and income levels are for people in the area. Or maybe not.
These are the sort of concerns that the data protection commissioner is worried about. And why the Minister can't say whether the enabling legislation will be passed, or when.

you are implying eircode is an enabler of things like websites with names and addresses and other data attached to it - that kind of website could be set up right now if someone was so inclined, of course as mentioned above, the person would probably end up in jail or other prosecution.

if you don't like the design of the code, fair enough, but associating it with being an enabler for illegal activity is unfair. its scaremongering designed to make people fearful of the code.

In relation to the legislation, it has been mentioned that the DPC wanted postcodes specifically mentioned in DP legislation as they are new, a prudent move, but that same DPC is on record as saying she has no idea how eircode could be a threat to privacy.

LeinsterDub

murpho999 wrote: »

Think you need to listen again.
He clearly states that everyone will be notified of their Eircode by the end of May.

Said if legislation passes. So no guarantees. If it doesn't we are into September after their holidays

antoinolachtnai

In relation to the legislation, it has been mentioned that the DPC wanted postcodes specifically mentioned in DP legislation as they are new, a prudent move, but that same DPC is on record as saying she has no idea how eircode could be a threat to privacy.

where is this on the record exactly?

ukoda

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

where is this on the record exactly?

Ms Dixon said it was difficult to say as yet what kind of harms, if any, may derive from the use of a unique code to identify each individual home in the
state. “One struggles to come up with an absolutely riveting example of what will definitively happen the day it is introduced,” she said. “But it could give rise to issues.”

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/irela...ools-1.2079095

paulbok

Apologies if this has been asked before.
Having looked at the eircode website it shows a 7 digit code, but it does show a gap between the routing key and the unique code.
so ist it contigious A65F4E2
or is there a gap A65 F4E2

I'm assuming the apparent gap is just for explaining the 2 parts of the code.

recedite

ukoda wrote: »

you are implying eircode is an enabler of things like websites with names and addresses and other data attached to it - that kind of website could be set up right now if someone was so inclined, of course as mentioned above, the person would probably end up in jail or other prosecution.

It will be a lot easier after eircode release/sell the database linked to the eircodes into the public domain. I'm not blaming eircode for this, its just an unfortunate consequence.
Lots of illegal information and data is available on the internet; free music and movie downloads for example. Once the data has been sold/released in digital form, controlling it subsequently becomes very difficult.

murpho999

recedite wrote: »

What you say is fair enough, but when you say "Each property has its own eircode with its own lat/lon attached to it"
It disguises the fact that the eircode itself is just a meaningless random number. They are PPS numbers for houses.

But (when the project is finished) these PPS numbers could be used to look-up the actual geo co-ordinates of the property on an official database, which is derived from Geodirectory. It may well happen that Google and the various Sat nav companies will pay for access to the database, and then offer the look-up for free on their own devices. Or maybe they won't.

Maybe unofficial websites will also appear, where you will be able to look-up not only the geo co-ordinates of the eircode, but also the names of the people living there, and what the average house prices and income levels are for people in the area. Or maybe not.
These are the sort of concerns that the data protection commissioner is worried about. And why the Minister can't say whether the enabling legislation will be passed, or when.

This privacy complaint is a red herring in my opinion.

Nothing to stop you doing that type of research now if you really wanted to without eircode.
How an eircode will suddenly unveil a property price or a person's income is beyond me.

It's just a code to locate addresses for delivery ffs.

murpho999

recedite wrote: »

It will be a lot easier after eircode release/sell the database linked to the eircodes into the public domain. I'm not blaming eircode for this, its just an unfortunate consequence.
Lots of illegal information and data is available on the internet; free music and movie downloads for example. Once the data has been sold/released in digital form, controlling it subsequently becomes very difficult.

The database won't contain names, so what is the issue?

ukoda

recedite wrote: »

It will be a lot easier after eircode release/sell the database linked to the eircodes into the public domain. I'm not blaming eircode for this, its just an unfortunate consequence.
Lots of illegal information and data is available on the internet; free music and movie downloads for example. Once the data has been sold/released in digital form, controlling it subsequently becomes very difficult.

I'm just making the point that the database technically already exists (minus the eircode) in the form of the geo directory for many years now, which is available for purchase, and all hell hasn't broken loose with privacy invasion. I would agree with the other poster that the privacy issue is a red herring.

And by the way, the geo directory already has a unique identitier for each property in the form of a geo code, all eircode is doing is turning the addresses and geo codes into a smaller code that's more human compatible and usable as a postcode.

And as mentioned above, even the DPC struggles to see how it's going to be a privacy issue.

antoinolachtnai

This is not the same as saying

' she has no idea how eircode could be a threat to privacy.'

ukoda

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

This is not the same as saying

She struggles to come up any examples of how it's a privacy concern? It's her JOB to know privacy concerns.

It's the same thing. In fact, it's worse than what I said.

recedite

murpho999 wrote: »

The database won't contain names, so what is the issue?

Pre eircode most people were not aware of geo directory and had no interaction with it.
When eircode is introduced, it will not be possible to avoid using it because it will be an official part of your address and required for interactions with the state eg property tax, water charges and possibly also for prompt mail deliveries.
Once people learn their eircode off and get used to using it, they will think nothing of submitting it online along with their name, eg for an instant insurance quote.
Whether through scamming, phishing or careless leaks of commercially gathered data, the names and other data of eircode users will gradually become available to those who want access to it.
As I said, its not exactly the fault of eircode, just an unfortunate consequence of its introduction.

ukoda

recedite wrote: »

Pre eircode most people were not aware of geo directory and had no interaction with it.
When eircode is introduced, it will not be possible to avoid using it because it will be an official part of your address and required for interactions with the state eg property tax, water charges and possibly also for prompt mail deliveries.
Once people learn their eircode off and get used to using it, they will think nothing of submitting it online along with their name, eg for an instant insurance quote.
Whether through scamming, phishing or careless leaks of commercially gathered data, the names and other data of eircode users will gradually become available to those who want access to it.
As I said, its not exactly the fault of eircode, just an unfortunate consequence of its introduction.

people think nothing now of giving their full address to insurance companies for a quote, in fact a lot of them insist on it.

People can get scammed phished or have their data leaked right now, it is NOT a consequence of eircode introduction, it is a consequence of modern life. Making that link is the red herring.

recedite

ukoda wrote: »

people think nothing now of giving their full address to insurance companies for a quote, in fact a lot of them insist on it.

But the address they give might not be in the same format as that listed in geodirectory. Making it difficult to cross reference the data, impossible in a lot of cases.
Eircode is the unique identifier; it provides the one link that can be used to cross reference data gathered from different sources, including geodirectory but not limited to just that database.

ukoda

recedite wrote: »

But the address they give might not be in the same format as that listed in geodirectory. Making it difficult to cross reference the data, impossible in a lot of cases.
Eircode is the unique identifier; it provides the one link that can be used to cross reference data gathered from different sources, including geodirectory but not limited to just that database.

There are lots of things that can be used to link data across different databases, if people want to do it, there are ways now to do it that are highly effective

And I've noticed more and more companies recently ARE validating against the geo directory I.e. You enter some address data and it brings you back a list you have to choose from (from the geo directory) the one that springs to mind is dominos pizza, another is 3 Network when signing up and I noticed it on an insurance website a few months ago, can't think which one now tho, but I've seen it in a good few places in the last year

recedite

ukoda wrote: »

And I've noticed more and more companies recently ARE validating against the geo directory I.e. You enter some address data and it brings you back a list you have to choose from (from the geo directory) the one that springs to mind is dominos pizza, another is 3 Network when signing up and I noticed it on an insurance website a few months ago, can't think which one now tho, but I've seen it in a good few places in the last year

That is interesting alright. Once they have linked your name to the correct geo directory listing, they also have a record of the exact co-ordinates of your house and what you like to eat. And maybe someday the Dominos customer database will be hacked by a third party and that data added to another dataset. But if the eircode was in there as a unique identifier, it would make the whole process easier because they don't need to keep coming back to you asking you to check the address, ie validate it.

murpho999

recedite wrote: »

That is interesting alright. Once they have linked your name to the correct geo directory listing, they also have a record of the exact co-ordinates of your house and what you like to eat. And maybe someday the Dominos customer database will be hacked by a third party and that data added to another dataset. But if the eircode was in there as a unique identifier, it would make the whole process easier because they don't need to keep coming back to you asking you to check the address, ie validate it.

So bloody what if people can cross refererence your geo-directory and find out that I live in my house and I like a Pepperoni on the off Friday.

Really don't see what you or other people are concerned about.

Even a website is hacked what will they know more if the Eircode wasn't there?

I don't see the issue or fraud potential at all. It''s all scaremongering.

oscarBravo

recedite wrote: »

That is interesting alright. Once they have linked your name to the correct geo directory listing, they also have a record of the exact co-ordinates of your house and what you like to eat. And maybe someday the Dominos customer database will be hacked by a third party and that data added to another dataset. But if the eircode was in there as a unique identifier, it would make the whole process easier because they don't need to keep coming back to you asking you to check the address, ie validate it.

Can you explain to me how this particular thread of scaremongering is unique to eircodes, as distinct from any other type of location code that uniquely identifies a premises?

For that matter, can you explain how it's dramatically different from being able to collate the same information by unique street address in those countries that actually have such a beast?

tvc15

murpho999 wrote: »

So bloody what if people can cross refererence your geo-directory and find out that I live in my house and I like a Pepperoni on the off Friday.

Really don't see what you or other people are concerned about.

Even a website is hacked what will they know more if the Eircode wasn't there?

I don't see the issue or fraud potential at all. It''s all scaremongering.

Fear of privacy is not the issue here, the same people would not be complaining so much aboit loc8 being an easy database lookup key. The fear for most here is that Eircode might actually succeed! I can't quite figure out the exact reasoning buti would guess a mix between a vested interest in loc8, a wish to see the government fail in something and a general wish to say I told you so

Sam Russell

tvc15 wrote: »

Fear of privacy is not the issue here, the same people would not be complaining so much aboit loc8 being an easy database lookup key. The fear for most here is that Eircode might actually succeed! I can't quite figure out the exact reasoning buti would guess a mix between a vested interest in loc8, a wish to see the government fail in something and a general wish to say I told you so

No.

Eircode is a bad design that appears to be designed to provide a revenue stream for some private companies.

It is deliberately opaque in its design rationale, is still kept largely secret even on the day of launch. The charges (see previous paragraph) have yet to be announced.

It is a saga that looks like eVoting, Irish Water and a few other own goals by the Government.

No, I do not have anything to do with any postcode, location code, delivery company, or any enterprise that has anything to do with this issue.

It is not necessary to have a vested interest to have an interest, and a pile of dung looks like a pile of dung to most people who care to glance at it - and it smells.