National Postcodes to be introduced

murpho999

Sam Russell wrote: »

No.

Eircode is a bad design that appears to be designed to provide a revenue stream for some private companies.

It is deliberately opaque in its design rationale, is still kept largely secret even on the day of launch. The charges (see previous paragraph) have yet to be announced.

It is a saga that looks like eVoting, Irish Water and a few other own goals by the Government.

No, I do not have anything to do with any postcode, location code, delivery company, or any enterprise that has anything to do with this issue.

It is not necessary to have a vested interest to have an interest, and a pile of dung looks like a pile of dung to most people who care to glance at it - and it smells.

I think it's just criticism for criticism's sake. Comparing it to Irish Water and e-Voting

So what if they haven't announced their prices yet. They haven't yet launched.

GJG

recedite wrote: »

Pre eircode most people were not aware of geo directory and had no interaction with it.
When eircode is introduced, it will not be possible to avoid using it because it will be an official part of your address and required for interactions with the state eg property tax, water charges and possibly also for prompt mail deliveries.
Once people learn their eircode off and get used to using it...

I think that is certainly correct. It does, however, undermine the argument put forward by some Eircode opponents that it will never gain acceptance or widespread use.

recedite wrote: »

Once people learn their eircode off and get used to using it, they will think nothing of submitting it online along with their name, eg for an instant insurance quote.
Whether through scamming, phishing or careless leaks of commercially gathered data, the names and other data of eircode users will gradually become available to those who want access to it.
As I said, its not exactly the fault of eircode, just an unfortunate consequence of its introduction.

We don't need to speculate what will happen, because already in Ireland - the north - every address has a unique identifier - a combination of the street number and the postcode. Every address has a street number, and a postcode, and no two addresses that share a postcode can ever share a street number; anyone with database experience will know that the difference between using one and two fields as a primary key is trivial.

So negative predictions about what will happen with Eircode aren't really credible unless they can already be seen to be happening in the north.

There is an extensive discussion on Eircode on the podcast at HeresHow.ie

Sam Russell

murpho999 wrote: »

I think it's just criticism for criticism's sake. Comparing it to Irish Water and e-Voting

So what if they haven't announced their prices yet. They haven't yet launched.

Irish Water did not announce their pricing either.

Criticism of the project is valid because it is a bad system that has been ill thought out.

antoinolachtnai

GJG wrote: »

I think that is certainly correct. It does, however, undermine the argument put forward by some Eircode opponents that it will never gain acceptance or widespread use.




We don't need to speculate what will happen, because already in Ireland - the north - every address has a unique identifier - a combination of the street number and the postcode. Every address has a street number, and a postcode, and no two addresses that share a postcode can ever share a street number; anyone with database experience will know that the difference between using one and two fields as a primary key is trivial.

So negative predictions about what will happen with Eircode aren't really credible unless they can already be seen to be happening in the north.

NI has quite a different code. It is a structured code, unlike eircode. The end user can choose whether or not to provide their house number when they give their eircode.

So it is just not the same situation. It is different in at least these two respects.

It is also different in that the codes have been communicated to end-customers with a very high degree of accuracy as a result of various factors. There is no indication that this will be case in Ireland. Thousands of customers will receive the wrong eircode.

ukoda

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Thousands of customers will receive the wrong eircode.

There's no indication that will be the case. That's just an unsubstantiated claim made by you that you are trying to present as fact.

antoinolachtnai

The proposal is to deliver codes by post. This is just not an accurate way to deliver anything so critical. The error rate in postal delivery is well above 1 percent for fully addressed mail. Eircode mail will only be partly addressed (no recipient name) and so the error rate will be higher, particularly in areas where addresses are not unique.

If you know otherwise, let's hear it.

ukoda

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The proposal is to deliver codes by post. This is just not an accurate way to deliver anything so critical. The error rate in postal delivery is well above 1 percent for fully addressed mail. Eircode mail will only be partly addressed (no recipient name) and so the error rate will be higher, particularly in areas where addresses are not unique.

If you know otherwise, let's hear it.

Neither of us know exactly how it will be done, but I doubt they will try and post 35% of them to non unique addresses, but I won't claim anything I don't know for sure as fact. You're sssuming they haven't thiught of that and presenting it as fact, as if you know for sure

murpho999

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The proposal is to deliver codes by post. This is just not an accurate way to deliver anything so critical. The error rate in postal delivery is well above 1 percent for fully addressed mail. Eircode mail will only be partly addressed (no recipient name) and so the error rate will be higher, particularly in areas where addresses are not unique.

If you know otherwise, let's hear it.

Seriously, how else do you expect them to deliver it?

Do you not also think that project managers have thought of this already.

People here claim things as a disaster before anything has been implemented.

antoinolachtnai

ukoda wrote: »

Neither of us know exactly how it will be done, but I doubt they will try and post 35% of them to non unique addresses, but I won't claim anything I don't know for sure as fact. You're sssuming they haven't thiught of that and presenting it as fact, as if you know for sure

It is clearly stated that this will be done by post in the Eircode presentation dated 4 December 2014 and example illustrations of items with postal markings are provided.

ukoda

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

It is clearly stated that this will be done by post in the Eircode presentation dated 4 December 2014 and example illustrations of items with postal markings are provided.

I'm not saying it's not going to be done by post. In just saying there might be extra checking or validation involved than the normal post drop. Just a theory

clewbays

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

NI has quite a different code. It is a structured code, unlike eircode. The end user can choose whether or not to provide their house number when they give their eircode. QUOTE]

Yes from 70 years ago when you could watch RTE1 if you were lucky and didn't have a screen full of snowflakes and computer programs were written on punch cards. Would you really order a new washing machine and refuse to give the deliverers your house number! Do you use pseudonyms just in case

HardenendMan

Sam Russell wrote: »

No.

Eircode is a bad design that appears to be designed to provide a revenue stream for some private companies.

In your opinion maybe. But let's look at the facts;

- It solves non-unique addressing. You put in an Eircode to a sat nav etc. and get the exact location.

- It prevents post code ghettos. A genuine issue like it or not.

- It reduces errors by being random.

It doesn't;

- Allow for a manual sort operation which small couriers would like.

- Conform to the UK design to allow large companies minimise integration costs.

So...how would you change the design to fix REAL problems?

Sam Russell

HardenendMan wrote: »

In your opinion maybe. But let's look at the facts;

- It solves non-unique addressing. You put in an Eircode to a sat nav etc. and get the exact location.

- It prevents post code ghettos. A genuine issue like it or not.

- It reduces errors by being random.

It doesn't;

- Allow for a manual sort operation which small couriers would like.

- Conform to the UK design to allow large companies minimise integration costs.

So...how would you change the design to fix REAL problems?

Unique addressing needs to be solved in a way a person without a computer in their pocket connected to the internet might be able to use. Give every road a name for example. Give every building a number - based if necessary on distance. Make one body, like Revenue, responsible for addresses.

Code ghettos is just a UK invention.

They could start on unique addresses now.

ukoda

Sam Russell wrote: »

Unique addressing needs to be solved in a way a person without a computer in their pocket connected to the internet might be able to use. Give every road a name for example. Give every building a number - based if necessary on distance. Make one body, like Revenue, responsible for addresses.

Code ghettos is just a UK invention.

They could start on unique addresses now.

UK postcode ghettos are as a result of the UK postcode design tho

People keep saying things like "a computer in their pocket" like its some sort of futuristic thing that will never happen.

Ireland has 70% "computer in pocket" (I.e. Smartphone) penetration. And this is growing rapidly.

The reality is most people do have a computer in thier pocket and almost everyone will in another few years.

Sam Russell

ukoda wrote: »

UK postcode ghettos are as a result of the UK postcode design tho

People keep saying things like "a computer in their pocket" like its some sort of futuristic thing that will never happen.

Ireland has 70% "computer in pocket" (I.e. Smartphone) penetration. And this is growing rapidly.

The reality is most people do have a computer in thier pocket and almost everyone will in another few years.

They might have a smartphone, but it needs to be connected to the internet. The places with non-unique addresses are usually in the same area where the internet is not - the so called not-spots.

.

ukoda

Sam Russell wrote: »

They might have a smartphone, but it needs to be connected to the internet. The places with non-unique addresses are usually in the same area where the internet is not - the so called not-spots.

.

Internet coverage is ever increasing too, plus nothing stopping anyone making an offline app that can navigate, these exisit already and I've used one on holidays last month. Surprisingly accurate with data roaming switched off.

Also Google Maps has an offline mode for navigation.

This is a pretty weak argument that will fade away to non exisitence with the way technology is rapidly developing

Sam Russell

ukoda wrote: »

Internet coverage is ever increasing too, plus nothing stopping anyone making an offline app that can navigate, these exisit already and I've used one on holidays last month. Surprisingly accurate with data roaming switched off.

Also Google Maps has an offline mode for navigation.

This is a pretty weak argument that will fade away to non exisitence with the way technology is rapidly developing

Non-unique addresses will only fade away if something is done about it. There are no plans currently to do anything about it. Welcome to Ireland - home of the fudge.

ukoda

Sam Russell wrote: »

Non-unique addresses will only fade away if something is done about it. There are no plans currently to do anything about it. Welcome to Ireland - home of the fudge.

If every house gets a unique eircode, every address in Ireland becomes unique. Welcome to Ireland - where we didn't implement a postcode from the 1960's. We implemented a post code that works with modern technology and will only get more useful as that technology improves

Sam Russell

A post code is not an address just as a PPS number is not an identity.

Will everyone have a little plaque on their house with their postcode on it? I doubt it. They do not even put their house number on the gate.

It should be a requirement for all houses in urban areas to be assigned a house number and that be placed in a readable format on the gatepost such that it can be read from the road. Rural areas should be required to work towards this with a defined completion date.

If it has taken this long to not implement a post code system (it has slipped again) then there is little likelihood of such a project being successful.

ukoda

Sam Russell wrote: »

A post code is not an address just as a PPS number is not an identity.

Will everyone have a little plaque on their house with their postcode on it? I doubt it. They do not even put their house number on the gate.

It should be a requirement for all houses in urban areas to be assigned a house number and that be placed in a readable format on the gatepost such that it can be read from the road. Rural areas should be required to work towards this with a defined completion date.

If it has taken this long to not implement a post code system (it has slipped again) then there is little likelihood of such a project being successful.

What you are talking about would take 20 years to implement and meet strong opposition, I do think it would be a good thing to do but it's been left too long now. That said, one of eircodes mandates was "no one should have to change their address" so even if you believe that unique addressing needs to done, it's still no reason to bash eircode. What they have come up with is a huge improvement on what we have now, with the least amount of impact on the general public.

SpaceTime

It wouldn't take 20 years to implement.

They do it like this in France, the U.S. etc;

No number on house and using a ridiculous house name = no post delivered. The Irish postal services created this mess by tolerating and accommodating insane addressing systems for the last 100 years.

The fact that you've urban areas in Cork and elsewhere without any logical house numbering is just a complete failure of local authority and postal administration.

It's something that illustrates what was wrong with Ireland's asministrative systems over the decades!
I think a lot has changed since but there's no excuse for what happened in terms of "system design".

It seems nobody ever took responsibility for addressing and it just evolved into pure chaos and all sorts of colloquial systems based on local knowledge instead of any kind of sensible systems.

Unique postal codes have been used in developing world countries with similar issues with lack of unique addresses. The spin being put on this is ridiculous.

Ireland needed to fix its entire addressing system. Instead, most likely because of a mixture of political cowardess, an inability to recognise the problem and hostility towards systematised, logical, scientific approaches to things like this and paranoia about privacy / extreme views on anything to do with "the home" we're bolting together a totally bizarre virtual ID number system that lacks even any structure !

ukoda

SpaceTime wrote: »

It wouldn't take 20 years to implement.

They do it like this in France, the U.S. etc;

No number on house and using a ridiculous house name = no post delivered. The Irish postal services created this mess by tolerating and accommodating insane addressing systems for the last 100 years.

The fact that you've urban areas in Cork and elsewhere without any logical house numbering is just a complete failure of local authority and postal administration.

It's something that illustrates what was wrong with Ireland's asministrative systems over the decades!
I think a lot has changed since but there's no excuse for what happened in terms of "system design".

It seems nobody ever took responsibility for addressing and it just evolved into pure chaos and all sorts of colloquial systems based on local knowledge instead of any kind of sensible systems.

Fully agree with this. I'm just saying that because it's been left for 100 years it will now be incredibly difficult to do it. "Pet" names for townlands and variations of place names have been imbedded in people's minds for years, asking them to change to the correct offical name or telling them you're house number 2 now instead of "lovelyshack villa" would be a huge uphill battle and it actually could take decades to imbed this into society, it would cause confusion and be met with strong opposition. It's fully the fault of An Post for allowing this mess. But again, no reason here to bash eircode, like I said, it's a huge improvement that solves a lot of problems and will help a lot of people in their day to day lives.

SpaceTime

You just add the number after the vanity house name.

"Lovely Shack Villa"
2 Bog Road
Ballyparanoia
Co Awefully
NIM BY66

ukoda

SpaceTime wrote: »

You just add the number after the vanity house name.

"Lovely Shack Villa"
2 Bog Road
Ballyparanoia
Co Awefully
NIM BY66

But this is Ballysuperparonia!! It has been for years! That's what my grandfather told me and that's what's been on every letter sent here since I was kid. That's what everyone knows it as. That's what it's called. I'm not changing it because some government offical in a office in Dublin thinks he knows better.

Sam Russell

Revenue.

They collect the property tax from every house in Ireland, so just say from now on your address is as follows:

340 The Long Road,
Ballygobackwards,
Co Offgoye,
W11 YXLN

Please use this in all correspondence.

The TAX people.

It worked for the LPT.

ukoda

Sam Russell wrote: »

Revenue.

They collect the property tax from every house in Ireland, so just say from now on your address is as follows:

340 The Long Road,
Ballygobackwards,
Co Offgoye,
W11 YXLN

Please use this in all correspondence.

The TAX people.

It worked for the LPT.

They might use it for revenue because no one wants to draw attention to themselves from revenue. But are these people using that official address to have thier post deliver, to give directions, to get parcels delivered? Nope. They still give out their address as whatever variation they want to use

Avada

I like the aussie system for rural addresses. Add a name to every road, then the house number is the distance from the nearest main road to your house (to 10m), odd numbers on one side, even on the other. And, you must display your house number on the outside. I believe this should be done in addition to eircode.

http://www.sa.gov.au/topics/housing-property-and-land/property-and-place-information/rural-property-addressing

recedite

SpaceTime wrote: »

You just add the number after the vanity house name.

"Lovely Shack Villa"
2 Bog Road
Ballyparanoia
Co Awefully
NIM BY66

Yes, that's true, and the above is a unique address, even without the number at the end.
If the number at the end is an eircode (PPS for houses) it makes it quicker and easier for unauthorised people to collate, filter and cross reference any data they have gathered by "bulk collection".

If the house is sold, and the new owner changes the name, its still a unique address. New deliveries can still be made exactly as before. But the data gathering machine will no longer recognise it as the same address. So a machine would be programmed to look only at the unique number, ignoring the written address.

If the number at the end is a location code instead of a PPS number, such as Loc8 code is, then its more useful because the address can also be found without an internet connection. Either by entering it into a Sat Nav, or a gps enabled mobile phone (basically as a simplified and error checked set of geo-cordinates)
Or even by reference to a paper map overlaid with the Loc8 grid.

Also, most properties are large enough to accommodate numerous different Loc8 codes. If one code (eg at the geographical centre of a house), was registered for official govt. purposes (property tax and water charges) then the owner could still generate others (eg at the entrance gate) for pizza deliveries. Each different code would identify the location of the address uniquely from all other addresses. This would frustrate the unauthorised use of data.
Also there is the ability of the end user to shorten a location code to give a less precise version of the location for insurance quotes and the like.

Many people would choose to give out just the one official location code all the time of course, in its full length version, but at least it would be their choice, and their consent. Just as many people choose to give permission to microsoft and google to upload and store all their personal photos and documents "to the cloud". Its convenient, but its also less secure.

Sam Russell

ukoda wrote: »

They might use it for revenue because no one wants to draw attention to themselves from revenue. But are these people using that official address to have thier post deliver, to give directions, to get parcels delivered? Nope. They still give out their address as whatever variation they want to use

If you have one unique address that is the one you use.

The Eircode system is badly designed because it has elevated the ghetto problem above all others, and the implementers want to turn it into a revenue stream.

A hierarchical system would allow people to give less precise versions for privacy reasons. That would be the addressees choice.

A numerical system would be more robust and less error prone. [Without the risk of rude words].

A five digit code would be enough for this country, Switzerland manages to do theirs with only four digits and for free.

How do we always get things so wrong? Irish water, eVoting, HSE, etc.

ukoda

Sam Russell wrote: »

If you have one unique address that is the one you use.

The Eircode system is badly designed because it has elevated the ghetto problem above all others, and the implementers want to turn it into a revenue stream.

A hierarchical system would allow people to give less precise versions for privacy reasons. That would be the addressees choice.

A numerical system would be more robust and less error prone. [Without the risk of rude words].

A five digit code would be enough for this country, Switzerland manages to do theirs with only four digits and for free.

How do we always get things so wrong? Irish water, eVoting, HSE, etc.

I have never in my life thought, hold on, I think in this scenario I only want to give a part of my address. I make the decision in my head, I either want to give this person / website my address or I don't.

My day to day life scenarios:
Banking: need full address
Insurance: (even for quotes these days) need full address
Billing info: need full address
Drlivery guy: need full address
Applying for anything online: need full address

The "be able to give a bit of your postcode for privacy" is complete BS being used as a red herring.

Switzerlands postcodes are non unique and follow old railway line routes that aren't used anymore. One postcode could cover a whole town or city. What in gods name is so good about that???