National Postcodes to be introduced

tvc15

We also don't have unique towns which is why you need the county unfortunately http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raheen_(disambiguation) is just one example I would guess its more common that a town name is not unique

paulbok

Impetus wrote: »

Why include a county name in the mailing address? No other country does this. It is like RTE - we will now go to Mike in Fermoy, Co Cork. Everybody knows where Fermoy is. There is no need to be a county name robot - a la dumb gov.ie.

Why use a postcode that looks as if you are in London, GB (eg W11 YXLN)? Why does your proposed postcode not comply with normal EU / global format and layout - ie

IE-5722 Ballygobackwards would get your item to that town without mentioning of the country or country, if posted virtually anywhere in the world.

Dysfunctional IRL permanent gov = dumb, in the extreme.

When you call a phone number you don't have to dial the county, and town and townland etc. before the number. Same for email addresses. Ireland and the ejits who run it seem to live in the 18th century.

Perhaps the most telling point of the posting is the choice of town name "Ballygobackwards". Need one say more?

You sort of do with the area code and exchange code being part of the number. e.g clonmel cinema. 052 6127534 052 - Tipperary, -61- Clonmel area.

Carawaystick

ukoda wrote: »

The use of County is predominately a British / Irish thing and used to some extent in the US, most other countries use Province / locality / district instead of counties.

Nothing wrong with using a county in an address.

In some countries, like Spain, provinces are the size of counties here...
https://www.google.ie/maps/place/L'Alt+Empord%C3%A0,+Girona,+Spain/@42.3020224,2.9882851,11z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x12ba91e278859f8b:0x9f94206c0428759

Irish Steve

And then we wonder why nothing changes in this country! I've just caught up on the latest round of hair splitting here, and it really is time for a reality check.

There are a large number of companies that offer regular deliveries to addresses across Ireland, and from what I can see of the way they now operates, all bar An Post are now requiring for rural areas that there is a phone number included as part of the address so that the delivery agent can contact the recipient to find out where they really are, as the address on the packet is likely to be of no help at all in making a timely and efficient delivery. The problem with that is the delay it causes to senders, I'm waiting on a replacement headlight lens for a car that's coming from Italy, and the despatch was held up for a number of days because the sender had to come back to me for a contact phone number for the delivery company, very few software packages have a phone number as part of the address built in, but pretty much all have a postcode, but despite years of navel gazing, we're still waiting, and it's costing all of us money that we can't afford.

I used to spend hours searching up and down borreen roads in south County Meath looking for houses in order to deliver fresh flowers, and to say that it's frustrating would be putting it mildly, and it was also expensive, and inefficient.

At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter if it's LOC8, or Eircode, or who provides the code, what's needed for delivery organisations, and the emergency services is the ability to be able to take whichever code it is that's decided on, enter that into an appropriate package on either a GPS or a desktop computer, and get an accurate location of where that code relates to on the ground, so that there's no longer a requirement to search maybe 4 or 5 miles of a road in order to find the right location.

That said, with the way that some of our larger estates are structured, it would also be helpful to have a legal requirement that each house have a standardised size, shape and colour number identification that's visible roadside, and reflective so it can be seen at night, given that there are significant numbers of estates where the "expected" structure of numbering is not what actually happened. It's inconvenient for a flower delivery to discover after 20 minutes of searching that the numbers in one section go 43, 45, 47, 211, 213, 215, 49, 51, 53, but for an emergency services driver, that 20 minute delay could be life threatening.

Then there's estates like one in Ratoath where the house numbers were allocated on the basis of the order that they were connected to ESB, so what's happened on the ground is effectively completely random. Only in Ireland!

The continuing absence of a working and usable national coding system for physical locations has had and is continuing to have an adverse impact on the price that all of us pay for basic services, in that the cost of making rural deliveries is massive because of the imprecise and often ambiguous nature of rural addresses. Just think about it for a moment, how many places are there in Ireland called Blackrock? I can think of at least 3 without trying too hard, and they are very well separated, and the same is true for so many other townland names, there are more "The Ward" addresses around this area than I care to think about, and those are the confusions that in time critical situations ARE costing lives, because emergency services can no longer rely on local knowledge in the way that they used to be able to.

This lack of clarity and action has been going on for way too long, and is another damning indictment of the lamentable quality of politics and high level decision making in this country.

OssianSmyth

Eircode pricing has now been published:

http://www.eircode.ie/docs/default-source/Common/licencing-and-pricing-information-as-of-march-2015---published-v-1-0.pdf?sfvrsn=2

ukoda

OssianSmyth wrote: »

Eircode pricing has now been published:

http://www.eircode.ie/docs/default-source/Common/licencing-and-pricing-information-as-of-march-2015---published-v-1-0.pdf?sfvrsn=2

€500 per year for a licence and €180 per user is pretty cheap

Edit, €500 for a direct user, that puts easily in the reach of any SME and the ECAF is even cheaper

ozmo

ukoda wrote: »

€500 per year for a licence and €180 per user is pretty cheap

Edit, €500 for a direct user

So - If buy for occasional use Navagon IPhone app for once off purchase 70 euros - and it includes an *offline* map and postcodes for anywhere in the Europe (UK postcodes etc all included - USA on the US maps). A brilliant app.


But if I want to search for Irish postcodes - I need to pay over twice the price of the app (180 euros) and pay this cost every year? Just for postcodes?

No way is that cheap for the ordinary traveler unless I was a courier or my business required it.

ukoda

ozmo wrote: »

So - If buy for occasional use Navagon IPhone app for once off purchase 70 euros - and it includes an *offline* map and postcodes for anywhere in the Europe (UK postcodes etc all included - USA on the US maps). A brilliant app.


But if I want to search for Irish postcodes - I need to pay over twice the price of the app (180 euros) and pay this cost every year? Just for postcodes?

No way is that cheap for the ordinary traveler unless I was a courier or my business required it.

It depends what context you want to use it in. If it's Integrated into your systems then you pay a licence fee to access it we always knew that was the case

If that licence fee holder decides to make an app or whatever that's there choice if they think they can sell enough to warrant the cost of the licence fee....

If you're a joe soap looking to find a house it's free on eircodes website, they said that

ozmo

ukoda wrote: »

It depends what context you want to use it in.

Context is as stated : An IPHONE app - as linked to - an OFFLINE app - I use it often as it requires no data or 3G coverage - ideal for when Im on holiday.

Versions of it have fantastic coverage of all major countries in the world - it costs 70 euros and includes all the maps and postcodes.

If Navigon/Tomtom take the hit and the next version comes with built in Irish Postcodes Id be happy - but it would be unfair to burden a tourist with a 100+ euro Irish only address tax just to search for their hotel when they dont need do so in any other country on the planet.

Saying its free to search on Eircodes site does not apply in this situation - Its an OFFLINE app.

ukoda

ozmo wrote: »

Context is as stated : An IPHONE app - as linked to - an OFFLINE app - I use it often as it requires no data or 3G coverage - ideal for when Im on holiday.

Versions of it have fantastic coverage of all major countries in the world - it costs 70 euros and includes all the maps and postcodes.

If Navigon/Tomtom take the hit and the next version comes with built in Irish Postcodes Id be happy - but it would be unfair to burden a tourist with a 100+ euro Irish only address tax just to search for their hotel when they dont need do so in any other country on the planet.

Saying its free to search on Eircodes site does not apply in this situation - Its an OFFLINE app.

I'm failing to follow you here....how is the tourist any worse off in Ireland than any other country? Who are they paying the 100+ money to? The prices announced are for commercial purposes only

ozmo

ukoda wrote: »

I'm failing to follow you here....how is the tourist any worse off in Ireland than any other country? Who are they paying the 100+ money to? The prices announced are for commercial purposes only

Tomtom/Navigon are commercially sold apps and devices- for locals and tourists to use - not yearly subscriptions.

My question is if that high yearly charge will need be passed onto the user as an optional extra the user needs pay yearly? If its a charge per user per year approaching the cost of the app itself - I cannot see how Tomtom/Navigon can absorb that kind of cost.

You don't currently need pay extra to be able search for other countries postcodes - that's how the Irish visitor will be worst off.

(just in case you mention again the search allowance on Eircode site - these are Offline apps and devices we are talking about here)

ukoda

ozmo wrote: »

Tomtom/Navigon are commercially sold apps and devices- for locals and tourists to use - not yearly subscriptions.

My question is if that high yearly charge will need be passed onto the user as an optional extra the user needs pay yearly? If its a charge per user per year approaching the cost of the app itself - I cannot see how Tomtom/Navigon can absorb that kind of cost.

You don't currently need pay extra to be able search for other countries postcodes - that's how the Irish visitor will be worst off.

(just in mention again about the search allowance on Eircode site - these are Offline apps and devices we are talking about here)

No you've misunderstood this, the prices are for companies to run their internal queries to help run their business.

Its not a case that to use a navigation app the tourist will have to pay for the ECAD licence fee, it will work the same as the UK, that app you mentioned allows a tourist to put a UK postcode in and then navigate with it? well that tourist doesn't have to pay Royal Mail a licence to use their PAF database, the company making the app has an agreement with Royal mail around licensing and that cost is absorbed as an operational running cost, not directly passed to the apps users, altho maybe the cost is socialised across the price of the app internationally.

No tourist will be paying the fees you see published today, thats not what this is about, these fees are for commercial entities.

did you see the part about paying 3k a year to allow customers query unlimited eircodes on a companies website? they will have a similar deal for navigation companies wanting to embed eircodes.

This is what I meant earlier about context, in this context an "end user" is not a person looking to find a hotel or their mates house, it's a marketing manager that's been given a log in by eircode to go and query their database running queries like "give me the eircode for every house on street X or in area Y"

plodder

...

ukoda

plodder wrote: »

These licenses couldn't apply to satnav vendors (or google). 180 euros per user are kind of ridiculous in that context. How would google even know how many users it has?

exactly, thats why it will be more like the set fee per year for unlimited use of that navigation companies end users, they charge 3k to put eircode on your website with your customers able to do unlimited searches

ozmo

ukoda wrote: »

did you see the part about paying 3k a year to allow customers query unlimited eircodes on a companies website? they will have a similar deal for navigation companies wanting to embed eircodes.

Again - you mention the online cheaper option even when i say OFFLINE in each post. These are OFFLINE apps (Not web enabled - not connected to internet by design, choice or limitation).

I think you misunderstood who pays - 'Someone' has pay the costs - the costs are on the PDF - and the users are the people who buy the apps and devices. Be they in the company or app downloaders - they are then the consumers of one passed-on licence.

In UK - you can search for postcodes for free in the app - but to a certain level of detail (so first 5 or 6 digits of the code).
That's the commercial licence the App Developers got - probably free - just to a certain level of detail. That's not of course an option for Eircode where they will need pay for the full database for each user.
In other countries it seems to allow searching on the full postcode.

I see the max cost is €30K - but thats a year.. so that option would not fit the licence requirements of a device that might be used for 5+ years.

ukoda

ozmo wrote: »

Again - you mention the online cheaper option even when i say OFFLINE in each post. These are OFFLINE apps (Not web enabled - not connected to internet by design, choice or limitation).

I think you misunderstood who pays - 'Someone' has pay the costs - the costs are on the PDF - and the users are the people who buy the apps and devices. Be they in the company or app downloaders - they are then the consumers of one passed-on licence.

In UK - you can search for postcodes for free in the app - but to a certain level of detail (so first 5 or 6 digits of the code).
That's the commercial licence the App Developers got - probably free - just to a certain level of detail. That's not of course an option for Eircode where they will need pay for the full database for each user.
In other countries it seems to allow searching on the full postcode.

I see the max cost is €30K - but thats a year.. so that option would not fit the licence requirements of a device that might be used for 5+ years.

This is what I meant earlier about context, in this context an "end user" is not a person looking to find a hotel or their mates house, it's a marketing manager that's been given a log in by eircode to go and query their database running queries like "give me the eircode for every house on street X or in area Y" THATS what these prices are for.

and i said navigation company, be it offline or online, makes no odds. you're failing to see the point that the prices quoted here aren't for Joe Soaps looking to find a hotel

The cost for the likes of google or your offline app will not be published here, they will be negotiated between the companies

do you see what i mean? the figures you are coming up it aren't for the purpose you're using them for.

plodder

ukoda wrote: »

exactly, thats why it will be more like the set fee per year for unlimited use of that navigation companies end users, they charge 3k to put eircode on your website with your customers able to do unlimited searches

So, are you saying that they have different license terms for satnav vendors? How do you know this?

The document linked doesn't say anything about other possible licenses.

ukoda

plodder wrote: »

So, are you saying that they have different license terms for satnav vendors? How do you know this?

i came to this conclusion the same way you did

ozmo

ukoda wrote: »

unlimited use of that navigation companies end users, they charge 3k to put eircode on your website with your customers able to do unlimited searches

Nowhere in the PDF does it say there is a different licencing for App developers - on the contrary -

It explicitly says that if I let any users use the database through an app I write - I am responsible for keeping track of them and getting the fees to Eircode - which are anything from 30,000 for unlimited use to 180 per device/app if you write an app that has few users - PER YEAR).

I dont know where you got the 3,000 figure from.

(Again - Ill keep reminding I'm talking here about OFFLINE, by design or limitation - so any comments like its free on their site or price per lookup are not relevant)


Thats not cheap.


"For Eircode Providers who wish to resell Eircode data
products and/or provide a value added solution that
includes Eircode data"
"It is the responsibility of the Eircode Provider to:
Provide an accurate data usage return each month
of both their own usage, and that of their End Users... etc"

ukoda

ozmo wrote: »

Nowhere in the PDF does it say there is a different licencing for App developers - on the contrary -

It explicitly says that if I let any users use the database through an app I write - I am responsible for keeping track of them and getting the fees to Eircode - which are anything from 30,000 for unlimited use to 180 per device/app if you write an app that has few users - PER YEAR).

I dont know where you got the 3,000 figure from.

(Again - Ill keep reminding I'm talking here about OFFLINE, by design or limitation - so any comments like its free on their site or price per lookup are not relevant)


Thats not cheap.


"For Eircode Providers who wish to resell Eircode data
products and/or provide a value added solution that
includes Eircode data"
"It is the responsibility of the Eircode Provider to:
Provide an accurate data usage return each month
of both their own usage, and that of their End Users... etc"

i give up. totally missed it again. a provider is a reseller of the service (some one like Auto Address not an app developer) and again an end user as described here is not what you think it is.

It explicitly says that if I let any users use the database through an app I write - I am responsible for keeping track of them and getting the fees to Eircode

no it doesn't say that at all, you've interpreted it that way and now you can't see the wood for the tress.
Eircode provider is not an app developer. You're confusing things

you keep shouting OFFLINE at me and i keep telling you it doesn't matter if its online or offline, an end user here in this pricing guide is not a customer in the way you think it is.

recedite

ozmo wrote: »

So - If buy for occasional use Navagon IPhone app for once off purchase 70 euros - and it includes an *offline* map and postcodes for anywhere in the Europe (UK postcodes etc all included - USA on the US maps). A brilliant app.

I see the "British Isles" map takes up 74Mb of space, and twice that during the installation process. But once you have that map and the route planner app on your phone, and the gps switched on, it is basically the same as an in car sat-nav.
What you will need after that is an "eircode to gps co-ordinates converter" which I would expect to see soon, available as a free website on the internet or a very cheap app. Although that would need an internet connection to work, unless somebody puts the entire eircode database into a download.

ukoda wrote: »

This is what I meant earlier about context, in this context an "end user" is not a person looking to find a hotel or their mates house, it's a marketing manager that's been given a log in by eircode to go and query their database running queries like "give me the eircode for every house on street X or in area Y" THATS what these prices are for.

That sounds like junk mail to me. If that's the intention, I won't be welcoming it.
The more typical SME user would be a plumber, or a carpet fitter, or somebody delivering a parcel. All they want is the location, and they will be able to get that conversion done for free as outlined above.

ukoda

recedite wrote: »

That sounds like junk mail to me. If that's the intention, I won't be welcoming it.
The more typical SME user would be a plumber, or a carpet fitter, or somebody delivering a parcel. All they want is the location, and they will be able to get that conversion done for free as outlined above.

It's not the intention its just an example of one possible use of the databse. Like it or not any postcode we use will be used to some extent for marketing, among a lot more things obviously.

Another example:
Insurance worker looking to validate a bunch of addreses
A shop that had a list of customers addressed for invoicing and wants their eircode

There's loads of examples. The only point im making is that that is what these prices are for.

ozmo

ukoda wrote: »

totally missed it again. a provider is ...
no it doesn't say that at all...
Eircode provider is not an app developer....
You're confusing things....
this pricing guide is not a customer in the way you think it is.

I'm going by what I read in their published price list rather than your idea of what it means. Please provide a link if you know otherwise.

Unless you work for Eircode or have some insider knowledge, I don't know how you can interpt it any other way than what they have published in black and white.


Say I want to write a free offline IOS/Android app - that allows anyone to search for an location by postcode, without charge to them - what do I need pay Eircode? Document clearly says €30,000 Euros per year. Don't know how else I can interpt it. Otherwise what is the charge to me- the app developer?

I keep saying Offline as you keep saying Online access/per click etc in your replies and my interest is in Offline.

ukoda

ozmo wrote: »

I'm going by what I read in their published price list rather than your idea of what it means. Please provide a link if you know otherwise.

Unless you work for Eircode or have some insider knowledge, I don't know how you can interpt it any other way than what they have published in black and white.


Say I want to write a free offline IOS/Android app - that allows anyone to search for an location by postcode, without charge to them - what do I need pay Eircode? Document clearly says €30,000 Euros per year. Don't know how else I can interpt it. Otherwise what is the charge to me- the app developer?

I keep saying Offline as you keep saying Online access/per click etc in your replies and my interest is in Offline.

If they will provide a business with the facility to have unlimited customer queries on their website for 3k why would they charge 10 times that for offline? They wouldn't. I'm interpreting it in a logical sense and not blindly quoting things and putting them into a context they aren't meant for.

You're reading it from your point of view (as a developer in this example) and I'm trying to point out to you that this document isn't for your point of view. It's for a different audience.

Let's just wait and see shall we

ozmo

ukoda wrote: »

If they will provide a business with the facility to have unlimited customer queries on their website for 3k why would they charge 10 times that for offline?

3,000 is for the next to useless version without the coordinates - the one that can resolve to x,y is much more.

But lets see if they can do any better deals for app developers.

ukoda

ozmo wrote: »

3,000 is for the next to useless version without the coordinates - the one that can resolve to x,y is much more.

But lets see if they can do any better deals for app developers.

They'll have to. You're using "per user" as a customer using your navigation app and basing your figures on that but eircode define a user in this scenario as:
"Users are work stations and terminals within an End User’s organisation which have access to any part of the ECAF/ECAD either directly, or indirectly through Eircode Provider Products."

clewbays

Great to finally have sample data and pricing. They don't seem to have included dummy Eircodes in the sample data files - any reason for this? It seems like the birthday without the cake!

ukoda

clewbays wrote: »

Great to finally have sample data and pricing. They don't seem to have included dummy Eircodes in the sample data files - any reason for this? It seems like the birthday without the cake!

You have the character sets and formats, you could create sample eircodes yourself, don't know why they haven't included them, I do remember them sayin they would.

ukoda

plodder wrote: »

So, are you saying that they have different license terms for satnav vendors? How do you know this?

The document linked doesn't say anything about other possible licenses.

Niether does Royal Mails PAF but we all know they are on all sat navs and Google maps

http://www.poweredbypaf.com/end-user/products/data-products/paf-raw-data/ have a look at their licence fees.... No mention of sat navs on there....by your logic I'm to conclude that UK postcodes can't be on sat navs either is it??

People are misunderstanding what this pricing document is actually for.

plodder

ukoda wrote: »

Niether does Royal Mails PAF but we all know they are on all sat navs and Google maps

www.poweredbypaf.com have a look at their licence fees.... No mention of sat navs on there....by your logic I'm to conclude that UK postcodes can't be on sat navs either is it??

People are misunderstanding what this pricing document is actually for.

I thought we discussed this before. The PAF isn't on any satnav. The database of postcodes and their locations is, which is a different beast, and is actually licensed free of charge. See here

I deleted my last post, because I didn't have time to check it completely, but the equivalent with Eircodes will cost EUR 30,000 p.a. as far as I can see but the license is confusing. A satnav vendor doesn't seem to fit the provider or end user scenatrio as described.