National Postcodes to be introduced

ukoda

plodder wrote: »

I thought we discussed this before. The PAF isn't on any satnav. The database of postcodes and their locations is, which is a different beast, and is actually licensed free of charge. See here

I deleted my last post, because I didn't have time to check it completely, but the equivalent with Eircodes will cost EUR 30,000 p.a. as far as I can see but the license is confusing. A satnav vendor doesn't seem to fit the provider or end user scenatrio as described.

the point I'm making is that the licence fees here are for ECAD which is the equivalent of the PAF in the UK, neither are used for sat navs

Thats why i keep saying this can't be the pricing list for use by sat nav companies, you are correct thats a different beast altogether and reading these prices and trying to compute them into sat nav use is totally wrong.

And btw, prior to 2010 there were still UK postcodes on sat navs and google maps, the opening of the postcode wasn't the catalyst to sat nav companies suddenly being able to use them...

EDIT: so just to clarify my point. Yesterday eircode released thier equivalent to the PAF and gave it a similar pricing structure. This has nothing to do with sat nav or navigation use, it's purely for use of the database to run queries and do validation and put it on your website and other such uses

plodder

ukoda wrote: »

And btw, prior to 2010 there were still UK postcodes on sat navs and google maps, the opening of the postcode wasn't the catalyst to sat nav companies suddenly being able to use them...

Of course, and they had to pay £4000 for it, which was fine for a satnav vendor, and only 13% of the equivalent price for Eircodes (based on the information we actually have). But the kind of app that Ozmo is talking about would often be deterred by a charge even at that level, which is probably one reason why they released it for free - to encourage that kind of usage.

If Eircodes were hierarchical, they could have done something similar to the UK. Release a coarse grained database for free and charge (potentially more) for the full ECAD and ECAF.

ukoda

plodder wrote: »

Of course, and they had to pay £4000 for it, which was fine for a satnav vendor, and only 13% of the equivalent price for Eircodes (based on the information we actually have). But the kind of app that Ozmo is talking about would often be deterred by a charge even at that level, which is probably one reason why they released it for free - to encourage that kind of usage.

If Eircodes were hierarchical, they could have done something similar to the UK. Release a coarse grained database for free and charge (potentially more) for the full ECAD and ECAF.

there's nothing stopping eircode releasing a chopped down version to allow venders make apps like the one ozmo is talking about. It wouldn't affect thier other revenue streams as seen in the UK, they can still charge for the PAF or ECAD in this case, but allow navigation vendors use a different format database to encourage development. Again the only point im making is.... This is not the document where you will see this kind of information. It's likely that kind of use would have to be negotiated directly with eircode.

antoinolachtnai

Because the code isn't structured or hierarchical, it is very difficult indeed to make a chopped down version of the eircode database, at least not in the sense that is possible with the UK PAD.

It is not entirely impossible, but it would have to be a database of every point, with its full address and approximate location. Only difference from the main database would be that the locations would not be as accurate. Giving this away for free is certainly possible, but it would really undermine the whole business model.

ukoda

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Because the code isn't structured or hierarchical, it is very difficult indeed to make a chopped down version of the eircode database, at least not in the sense that is possible with the UK PAD.

It is not entirely impossible, but it would have to be a database of every point, with its full address and approximate location. Only difference from the main database would be that the locations would not be as accurate. Giving this away for free is certainly possible, but it would really undermine the whole business model.

not so much id say, i mean its for a totally different industry and purpose and in reality its for public use as the end user are the general public and not a commercial entity, so their ECAD licensing fees would still stand for commercial enterprise use.

They will let a commercial enterprise put unlimited look ups and validations for the general public on their website for a reasonable enough fee of 3000. its not much of a stretch to allow a navigation company have unlimited look ups for the general public on their apps/products for a similar fee.

antoinolachtnai

Where has this pricing information come from?

ukoda

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Where has this pricing information come from?

eircode, its on their website now since yesterday

link for you

https://www.eircode.ie/docs/default-source/Common/licencing-and-pricing-information-as-of-march-2015---published-v-1-0.pdf?sfvrsn=2

Carawaystick

I see I was right about the delay

eircodeWebsite wrote:

You will be sent a letter in summer 2015 informing you of the Eircode for your address and how to use it

This said spring previously

ukoda

Carawaystick wrote: »

I see I was right about the delay


This said spring previously

we've known for a few months now it was going to be summer, it was said in an interview with the Eircode guy, or maybe Alex White, i can't remember, but anyway it was previously confirmed it was delayed till May (subject to the DP legislation being approved)

antoinolachtnai

ukoda wrote: »

not so much id say, i mean its for a totally different industry and purpose and in reality its for public use as the end user are the general public and not a commercial entity, so their ECAD licensing fees would still stand for commercial enterprise use.

They will let a commercial enterprise put unlimited look ups and validations for the general public on their website for a reasonable enough fee of 3000. its not much of a stretch to allow a navigation company have unlimited look ups for the general public on their apps/products for a similar fee.

This low price item is the ECAF file though, it doesn't have coordinates in it.

I can't see why any organization would need more than one user licence for the ECAD.

It will be interesting to see the actual licence.

ukoda

So anyway I emailed eircode and asked them this is what I got back

"Consideration is being given to a product type for digital mapping use in circumstances where counting and reporting of end user transactions or devices is difficult. Any update on this and the licensing of products in general will be communicated via our Newsletter when available."

I knew damn well the prices published weren't for mapping or navigation use.

If anyone wants to verify this info then simply email sales@eircode and I'm sure you'll get the same response.

larchill

It still says Spring 2015, see the attached ...

Carawaystick

larchill wrote: »

It still says Spring 2015, see the attached ...

different on
http://www.eircode.ie/residential/overview

plodder

ukoda wrote: »

So anyway I emailed eircode and asked them this is what I got back

"Consideration is being given to a product type for digital mapping use in circumstances where counting and reporting of end user transactions or devices is difficult. Any update on this and the licensing of products in general will be communicated via our Newsletter when available."

I knew damn well the prices published weren't for mapping or navigation use.

If anyone wants to verify this info then simply email sales@eircode and I'm sure you'll get the same response.

I think it makes sense from their point of view. Addressing is the business they know, not navigation. But, navigation is the number one priority for most people looking for postcodes.

Carawaystick

some less charitable people might say cost and time overruns and gouging taxpayers is the business they know...

ukoda

plodder wrote: »

I think it makes sense from their point of view. Addressing is the business they know, not navigation. But, navigation is the number one priority for most people looking for postcodes.

I'd imagine they are being coy with the "we're considering it" response, it's likely they've been in talks with some of the navigation companies already, it's all over eircodes website that eircode will help with navigation

"Whether you’re frustrated with deliveries never reaching your address, or having to give directions to taxi drivers and visiting relatives, your home’s unique Eircode will help accurately direct parcels and people to your front door."

It's unlikely they havent already been trying to get the navigation companies onboard, I'd imagine their easiest target would be Google maps, they'll love this and pretty easy to implement it, and Google already bought the geo directory before

marmurr1916

Irish Water have been reduced to asking people for the colour of their front doors because of the lack of unique address identifiers for 40% of Irish addresses.

Irish Water has admitted it is seeking help in matching some of its water meters to the right house on their datatbase due to the high number of properties here with similar addresses.

The company said that it is working to match some 50,000 meters to the right home after it emerged that a customer was asked to identify the colour of her front door and gate in an attempt to help Irish Water establish which meter was linked to her house.

“Around 40% of Irish addresses are non-unique,” Elizabeth Arnett, head of communications at Irish Water, said.

“These are predominantly in rural Ireland where people give their townland as their address, but in some towns some addresses could be given as ‘Main Street’ for example,” she said.

Ms Arnett said having put in some 500,000 meters, the utility found that 40% of the addresses are non-unique and that Irish Water is working on establishing the correct house for 10% of these.

By way of example, Ms Arnett said that the utility found two people with the same name and date of birth living in adjacent houses in the same rural location. Both only gave the townland as their home address.

The issue arose after one rural-based Irish Water customer contacted the company to enquire as to how they were certain that the correct meter was linked to their home.

“Each Irish Water meter installed at the outside stop valve has an individual number which is linked to the property it is attached to.

“When you registered your property you also receive an application number which identifies your property. However, as your address is what we call a ‘non-unique address’, meaning that one or more other properties in your area share the same address. This means that we are unable to pinpoint your property on our system,” the email from the company read.

The Irish Water representative then went on to ask that the customer supply identifying features such as:

The colour of the property.
The colour of the door.
Details about their neighbours’ properties.
The colour of the gate.
The side of the road the property is on and for any directions from nearest town or landmark.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/irish-water-colour-of-hall-door-needed-to-get-right-water-bill-322170.html

Sam Russell

It is not April the 1st is it?

No, it is Irish Water.

clewbays

marmurr1916 wrote: »

Irish Water have been reduced to asking people for the colour of their front doors because of the lack of unique address identifiers for 40% of Irish addresses.

With Eircodes the householder will know whether the bill is for his/her household so it looks like Irish Water will be a very early adopter of Eircodes and that the Government will champion them.

How do ESB get bills delivered to the correct address? Seems like some households are deliberately giving non-unique details?

I would say the chap with the same name and the same date of birth and the same non-unique address owned both houses

ukoda

clewbays wrote: »

With Eircodes the householder will know whether the bill is for his/her household so it looks like Irish Water will be a very early adopter of Eircodes and that the Government will champion them.

How do ESB get bills delivered to the correct address? Seems like some households are deliberately giving non-unique details?

I would say the chap with the same name and the same date of birth and the same non-unique address owned both houses

ESB have huge issues with returned bills, as far as I know they have a whole department that deals with returned correspondence

larchill

Don't they use the MPRN?

ukoda

larchill wrote: »

Don't they use the MPRN?

How would an MPRN help a postman deliver a bill?

recedite

The MPRN number is a unique identifier for each property, but it is also associated with an "MPRN address" which appears on the bill. Often its not a great version of the address eg "The site, X Road" or "The Mews" mainly because the electricity meter went in originally as a temporary builders supply, and the customer didn't bother updating it after the house was completed and moved into.
If people want to pay the bill, there is no problem getting it from the postman, even with a weird MPRN address. People want to pay because they get disconnected if they don't pay. That's the big difference between electricity and water.

ukoda

recedite wrote: »

The MPRN number is a unique identifier for each property, but it is also associated with an "MPRN address" which appears on the bill. Often its not a great version of the address eg "The site, X Road" or "The Mews" mainly because the electricity meter went in originally as a temporary builders supply, and the customer didn't bother updating it after the house was completed and moved into.
If people want to pay the bill, there is no problem getting it from the postman, even with a weird MPRN address. People want to pay because they get disconnected if they don't pay. That's the big difference between electricity and water.

No it's not a unique identifier for every property. It's a unique identifier for every METER on the ESB system. (you could have 5 MPRNs at one property, or you could have 5 properties sharing 1 MPRN, in the case of a house converted to flats) It's no more than an account number and is of no use when delivering mail

There are huge problems getting electricity bills to customers. People have been disconnected because they never got a bill, houses have gone unregistered and subsequently disconnected because the last person closed their account and all ESB have is "the new occupant, ballysomewhere"

Trust me, I've seen this and it's happened people I know.

An MPRN won't help here, but an eircode definitely will.

dr.fuzzenstein

Sam Russell wrote: »

It is not April the 1st is it?

No, it is Irish Water.

To be fair this is not Irish Water's fault.
We live in the only country in Europe where you would see such an address:

Sean O'Cutehoor
De Shtick in de mud
Bogland
Ballydehop

Post only gets there because postie knows Sean personally. And frankly it's no one's business where Sean lives. At least that's what he thinks.
The only reason we haven't sorted this out is because it's a hangover from British occupation.
If you are an occupied country, the order of the day is to confuse and misinform the enemy.
This is why we have such an aversion to rules in this country, we don't like anyone knowing our business (unless we went to national school with them and then we still wouldn't trust the bastard 100%), there are no signposts in the countryside, no streetnames signposted anywhere and only every 4th house has a number displayed.
If suddenly there was the prospect of a clear map that showed unequivocally where everyone lived, there would be massive uproar. Mostly from the loony fringe, quaar loners, hippies, the Shinners and everyone else who thinks he has something to hide or otherwise enjoys living in the 19th century or maybe hates getting mail on a regular basis.

antoinolachtnai

ukoda wrote: »

No it's not a unique identifier for every property. It's a unique identifier for every METER on the ESB system. (you could have 5 MPRNs at one property, or you could have 5 properties sharing 1 MPRN, in the case of a house converted to flats) It's no more than an account number and is of no use when delivering mail

There are huge problems getting electricity bills to customers. People have been disconnected because they never got a bill, houses have gone unregistered and subsequently disconnected because the last person closed their account and all ESB have is "the new occupant, ballysomewhere"

Trust me, I've seen this and it's happened people I know.

An MPRN won't help here, but an eircode definitely will.

The addresses in the MPRN database are really not that great. There can be all sorts of problems with them. They are often not really correct. I don't think any supplier relies upon MPRN addresses alone for the delivery of bills anymore (but I could be wrong).

There are few or no dwelling houses without an MPRN.

There are certainly houses with multiple MPRNs, generally because there are a number of separate dwellings within the house. On the other hand, sometimes multiple dwellings do share an MPRN, but this is not that usual.

There is also a similar issue with eircode. There may be multiple dwelling units in the building, but only one eircode for the whole building. It depends upon how many ' delivery points' (which is basically postal jargon for what 'letterbox') there are.

ukoda

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The addresses in the MPRN databases are really not that great. There can be all sorts of problems with them. They are often not really correct. I don't think any supplier relies upon MPRN addresses alone for the delivery of bills anymore (but I could be wrong).

There are few or no dwelling houses without an MPRN.

There are certainly houses with multiple MPRNs, generally because there are a number of separate dwellings within the house. On the other hand, sometimes multiple dwellings do share an MPRN, but this is not that usual.

There is also a similar issue with eircode. There may be multiple dwelling units in the building, but only one eircode for the whole building. It depends upon how many ' delivery points' (which is basically postal jargon for what 'letterbox') there are.

Bills go to letter boxes. Each letterbox in the country is getting its own eircode, advantage with eircode is that it also has a geo coodinate attached to it, MPRN does not. It won't solve all issues, but it will certainly help

antoinolachtnai

Bills actually don't go to letter boxes that much anymore. Between prepay and online billing, flat mail delivery is becoming less and less relevant as a business.

I don't think it is necessarily true to say that MPRNs do not have geo coordinates attached. That said I wouldn't be arguing that MPRNs are a good solution for deliveries. But there really isn't that much difference between an MPRN and an eircode. Both are basically just a random string of characters unique to each house.

ukoda

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Bills actually don't go to letter boxes that much anymore. Between prepay and online billing, flat mail delivery is becoming less and less relevant as a business.

I don't think it is necessarily true to say that MPRNs do not have geo coordinates attached. That said I wouldn't be arguing that MPRNs are a good solution for deliveries. But there really isn't that much difference between an MPRN and an eircode. Both are basically just a random string of characters unique to each house.

It's 100% true to say that MPRNs have no geo cooridantes attached to them. The ESB do not validate their addresses against the geo directory so an MPRN is no more than a way for ESB and suppliers to identify a customer on thier systems.

Pay as you go has less than 10% market share so it's far from common place yet, also CER rules dictate these customer must get an annual statement posted to them, so there's still mail going out to them from a utility. Surprisingly Online billing take up for utilities is relitively low also btw.

antoinolachtnai

ukoda wrote: »

It's 100% true to say that MPRNs have no geo cooridantes attached to them. The ESB do not validate their addresses against the geo directory so an MPRN is no more than a way for ESB and suppliers to identify a customer on thier systems.

I don't think this is 100 percent true from my own knowledge. The MPRN is at heart a database of ESB Networks assets and there is a a lot more to it than just the part that is shown to the customers and the supply companies.

Pay as you go has less than 10% market share so it's far from common place yet, also CER rules dictate these customer must get an annual statement posted to them, so there's still mail going out to them from a utility.

The statement doesn't necessarily have to be mailed from my recall of the Supplier handbook.

Surprisingly Online billing take up for utilities is relitively low also btw.

But bill delivery (and flat mail generally) is still a dying business.