National Postcodes to be introduced

ukoda

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

I don't think this is 100 percent true from my own knowledge. The MPRN is at heart a database of ESB Networks assets and there is a a lot more to it than just the part that is shown to the customers and the supply companies.



The statement doesn't necessarily have to be mailed from my recall of the Supplier handbook.




But bill delivery (and flat mail generally) is still a dying business.

The MPRN is 100% dumb and nothing more to it than what it is... A way to look up customers on ESB and supplier systems, it has nothing more attached to it and nothing hidden, it's purely a by product of the market opening in 2005 and the industry needing a code that could be used across the industry. The only bit of logic in it are that codes beginning 100 are pre market opening and codes begining with 103 are usually for properties connected after market opening.
Maybe you are thinking of the old ESB account numbers? called ZGC, theses had some smarts in them, Zone (usually a townland) Ground (a street or small area and Customer (the customer in that area) these have been dead and buried since 2005 tho. Trust me MPRNs have nothing hidden or smart about them.

Yes mail delivery is on the decline and you're correct in saying the annual statement can be emailed, but as I said, the numbers are low for people opting for this.

recedite

ukoda wrote: »

It's 100% true to say that MPRNs have no geo cooridantes attached to them. The ESB do not validate their addresses against the geo directory so an MPRN is no more than a way for ESB and suppliers to identify a customer on thier systems.

AFAIK ESB Networks have the geo co-ordinates of all MPRNs, and also the locations of all ESB poles which also have a reference number on them.
If different flats have different MPRNs, it means they are separate billing "households" within a building and could be regarded as different addresses. Maybe they would have separate letterboxes located in the entrance hall, or maybe not. Neither paying your own bills nor having your own letterbox are what defines that you have "an address". Whether the occupiers letters are put into a numbered letterbox in the hallway or just left on a table is hardly a matter of national importance.

MPRN numbers do not identify customers, account numbers do that. MPRN is an ID for the meter point location, which corresponds to "an address" for a property.

UCD campus might have numerous buildings and numerous MPRN numbers, but only one eircode. Does that mean it has only one address? If there was an app that could find MPRNs it would be more useful for finding the science block than an app for finding eircode locations would be.

ukoda

recedite wrote: »

AFAIK ESB Networks have the geo co-ordinates of all MPRNs, and also the locations of all ESB poles which also have a reference number on them.
If different flats have different MPRNs, it means they are separate billing "households" within a building and could be regarded as different addresses. Maybe they would have separate letterboxes located in the entrance hall, or maybe not. Neither paying your own bills nor having your own letterbox are what defines that you have "an address". Whether the occupiers letters are put into a numbered letterbox in the hallway or just left on a table is hardly a matter of national importance.

MPRN numbers do not identify customers, account numbers do that. MPRN is an ID for the meter point location, which corresponds to "an address" for a property.

UCD campus might have numerous buildings and numerous MPRN numbers, but only one eircode. Does that mean it has only one address? If there was an app that could find MPRNs it would be more useful for finding the science block than an app for finding eircode locations would be.

In places like UCD, it's usual that mail is delivered to reception and they have there own distribution methods to get the mail to the relevent departments or its collected centrally, most large companies have internal people to distribute the mail as its not An Posts job to walk to each building on campus, this is the same for large companies with big campuses. The mail man doesn't go to every building, mail goes to reception. So 1 eircode is fine

And that app you talk about to find the location of an MPRN would probably take you to a basement or server room that's has all the meters in it. No good to you to find the science block, that block may or may not have its own meter and it may or may not be located close to that building

antoinolachtnai

ukoda wrote: »

The MPRN is 100% dumb and nothing more to it than what it is... A way to look up customers on ESB and supplier systems, it has nothing more attached to it and nothing hidden, it's purely a by product of the market opening in 2005 and the industry needing a code that could be used across the industry. The only bit of logic in it are that codes beginning 100 are pre market opening and codes begining with 103 are usually for properties connected after market opening.
Maybe you are thinking of the old ESB account numbers? called ZGC, theses had some smarts in them, Zone (usually a townland) Ground (a street or small area and Customer (the customer in that area) these have been dead and buried since 2005 tho. Trust me MPRNs have nothing hidden or smart about them.

They don't have anything smart in them, no, but then neither does eircode. The codes are similar in that respect.

Jakey Rolling

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

there are no signposts in the countryside, no streetnames signposted anywhere and only every 4th house has a number displayed

Funnily enough, on a trip to the UK last week my 5 year old asked "Why do all the streets here have names?"

Carawaystick

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Sean O'Cutehoor
De Shtick in de mud
Bogland
Ballydehop

The only issue is the (very big) step from a townland to a specific house.
Townlands are clearly mapped for those who want to look for them, and the postal town hierarchy above that is also widely available.

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

there are no signposts in the countryside, no streetnames signposted anywhere and only every 4th house has a number displayed.

I'd say the majority of streets have signs.

Many L roads have road signs put up, and in Galway, many townlands are signposted, which is a small start.

re. every 4th house having a number displayed, sher only half of houses are numbered to begin with

These are all complaints about our lack of addressing system, eircodes won't resolve any of this.

dr.fuzzenstein

Carawaystick wrote: »

The only issue is the (very big) step from a townland to a specific house.
Townlands are clearly mapped for those who want to look for them, and the postal town hierarchy above that is also widely available.

I'd say the majority of streets have signs.

Many L roads have road signs put up, and in Galway, many townlands are signposted, which is a small start.

re. every 4th house having a number displayed, sher only half of houses are numbered to begin with

These are all complaints about our lack of addressing system, eircodes won't resolve any of this.

Townlands are clearly mapped? That must be why my mail always ends up with the other German in the area.
No really. I know when my postie off off, because I get the wrong mail and my mail ends up at the wrong house. I only get my mail because he knows who I am and what house I live in.
Sure, the majority of streets have signs, until you look for one. I worked field duty for 9 years and finding ANY place in Ireland is a pain in the hole.
You think my example address is a joke? Try living in Inch (for example). Half your mail goes to the wrong Inch and every now and then people ask me "Is this Inch?" and I have to say "Yes it is, but so are the other 3 Inch in the county, which one are you looking for".
Invariably it's the wrong one.
I have checked with An Post and my postman for my exact address, and answer vary. No matter how I spell my address, it always comes with parts of it crossed out and "Try the other Inch" written on it. An Post either doesn't know their own addresses, or they can't read or they don't care.
Postcodes would be properly mapped. So if I now enter Dr. Fuzz, The Bogs, 23456 Inch into my sat nav, I know I will arrive at my house and not half a county away. Or best of all, I wouldn't have to spell out my address for 10 minutes, but just enter the postcode and it would immediately know where I'm going.
Of course the Irish would always argue otherwise and probably produce studies that show "we are following best international practice and what do those Germans, Swedes and worst of all the bloody Brits know!", blah, blah, blah. Only so we can keep on doing what we are doing and not to be seen to dance to "Johnny Foreigners" tune.
Ireland-Deliberately doing it wrong and being proud of it!

Sam Russell

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

So if I now enter Dr. Fuzz, The Bogs, 23456 Inch into my sat nav, I know I will arrive at my house and not half a county away. Or best of all, I wouldn't have to spell out my address for 10 minutes, but just enter the postcode and it would immediately know where I'm going.

Of course, how do you check a postcode is accurate except by typing it into a satnav? It is not like your neighbours, or near neighbours. It is unlikely the postie knows whether your postcode is correct because there is no physical address to check it against. If the letter just has B04 D67X, how is he to know which house to deliver it to?

The Eircode system is daft.

ukoda

Sam Russell wrote: »

Of course, how do you check a postcode is accurate except by typing it into a satnav? It is not like your neighbours, or near neighbours. It is unlikely the postie knows whether your postcode is correct because there is no physical address to check it against. If the letter just has B04 D67X, how is he to know which house to deliver it to?

The Eircode system is daft.

If it's routed properly at the sorting office using eircode then the correct postman will have the correct letter for the correct route he's on.

dr.fuzzenstein

Sam Russell wrote: »

Of course, how do you check a postcode is accurate except by typing it into a satnav? It is not like your neighbours, or near neighbours. It is unlikely the postie knows whether your postcode is correct because there is no physical address to check it against. If the letter just has B04 D67X, how is he to know which house to deliver it to?

The Eircode system is daft.

How does postie in Germany know the postcode is correct?
Is there a signpost on my house or anywhere that shows 64646 as the postcode?
No.
He would have to look up what town or area the postcode refers to, then he will know where to go.
How do we do it here?

Sean O'Hurley
Go to the bog, take a left at the stick in the mud, if you see a dead goat, you have gone to far. How do I know there's a dead goat? Well, I didn't move it. Would you move it?
Where was I, oh yes, take a left turn, follow the bog road for 5 miles, go through the forest, take a left, right, right, left, right and a left again.
Big red house with a balcony and a Passat in the drive
Co Cavan

Or you look up postcode 23456 and you'll know where it is.
Of course the old method is much quainter and harks back to a time that is long gone, something Ivan Yates would call "Pig in the Kitchen Irish"
I suppose you enjoy receiving letters from people who have nothing to do with you and vice versa?

MBSnr

^^^
Yesterday a guy in the office (English is 2nd language) attempted to direct a delivery to his house. The driver was totally lost and as such he was on the phone for over 5 mins as he directed him to the front door. A waste of both of their productive times.
"Under the bridge, there's a left turn that isn't actually a left turn, but if you miss it you'll go under the motorway and you'll need to turn and the house is back the way on your right, no wait on your left, no right..."

You see what he needed there was a postcode - something to uniquely identify the house. So it's not sequential to your neighbours but so what? If the Sat Nav knows, then you get there. If you don't have a Sat Nav then perhaps with a 'sequential postcode' you could get close to the house but you'd still have to ring a number to check.

So let's have these postcodes now. The added bonus of them is - finally this thread just might stop...

MBSnr

MBSnr wrote: »

So let's have these postcodes now. The added bonus of them is - finally this thread just might stop...

Not a hope in hell, we'll be inundated with stories of lost post, postmen & delivery drivers because they can't relate the postcode to the property/person.

ukoda

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Not a hope in hell, we'll be inundated with stories of lost post, postmen & delivery drivers because they can't relate the postcode to the property/person.

all that happens now. Eircode is not going to make it any worse, suddenly putting a postcode on the end on an address isn't going to make a postman any less able to deliver a letter than he is now.

dr.fuzzenstein

ukoda wrote: »

all that happens now. Eircode is not going to make it any worse, suddenly putting a postcode on the end on an address isn't going to make a postman any less able to deliver a letter than he is now.

We won't have any more of this though:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=By3FPhMHWMo

yuloni

This post has been deleted.

ukoda

yuloni wrote: »

It's safe to say the Examiner doesn't like eircode!

http://www.irishexaminer.com/business/features/joined-up-thinking-theres-a-plan-323442.html

To be fair. That's an opinion piece by one journalist. And when I say opinion piece....I mean incoherent rant that makes no real point. It's a badly written rant about everything that he thinks is wrong with Ireland that he could find on google news.

SpaceTime

I've absolutely no issue with individual codes per house. In Ireland it's probably necessary due to the whacko addressing system but why couldn't they just make the areas smaller !?

Hierarchical code for the first 4 characters and random for 3 or even just have two random letters on the end which is still 26*26 combinations.

recedite

In fairness, "the shambularity" is a great word. It encapsulates the cumulative effects of numerous bad decisions perfectly. We are now seeing how the postcode shambles is making the Irish Water shambles even worse than it would have been on its own. Its a kind of "reverse synergy".

ukoda

recedite wrote: »

In fairness, "the shambularity" is a great word. It encapsulates the cumulative effects of numerous bad decisions perfectly. We are now seeing how the postcode shambles is making the Irish Water shambles even worse than it would have been on its own. Its a kind of "reverse synergy".

Explain how eircode is making Irish water situation worse? When it hasn't even launched yet?

recedite

Well if the postcode issue had been dealt with effectively within a reasonable period of the govt. deciding to incorporate a unique identifier into it, then the correct "addressing of bills" issues that Irish Water is now facing (ie asking people what colour their front door is) would not be occurring. And as we know, a lot of people will seize on any excuse to throw their bill in the bin. An incorrect or doubtful matching of the bill to the address provides that excuse.

ukoda

recedite wrote: »

Well if the postcode issue had been dealt with effectively within a reasonable period of the govt. deciding to incorporate a unique identifier into it, then the correct "addressing of bills" issues that Irish Water is now facing (ie asking people what colour their front door is) would not be occurring. And as we know, a lot of people will seize on any excuse to throw their bill in the bin. An incorrect or doubtful matching of the bill to the address provides that excuse.

That's the Current situation, you said ericode was making it worse?

recedite

ukoda wrote: »

That's the Current situation, you said ericode was making it worse?

Eh no, I said nothing about ericode. Feel free to quote me if I did.
The very first post in this thread, back in 2009 has a great comment;

About time but 2011 seems like a long way off
could they not just use an existing one like PONC or similar

For newbies to the thread, PONC codes were the precursor to Loc8 codes, which were subsequently offered to the govt. but rejected due to the inadequacy of their political lobbying.

ukoda

recedite wrote: »

Eh no, I said nothing about ericode. Feel free to quote me if I did.
The very first post in this thread, back in 2009 has a great comment;

For newbies to the thread, PONC codes were the precursor to Loc8 codes, which were subsequently offered to the govt. but rejected due to the inadequacy of their political lobbying.

Well your post was suggesting that the postcode was going to make things "even worse" implying it was going to deteriorate the current Irish Water situation.

So what you actually meant was... Lack of a postcode in general is causing a problem for Irish water? I don't disagree with that

recedite

ukoda wrote: »

... Lack of a postcode in general is causing a problem for Irish water? I don't disagree with that

And that is an example of "the shambularity" in action.

ukoda

ukoda wrote: »

Well your post was suggesting that the postcode was going to make things "even worse" implying it was going to deteriorate the current Irish Water situation.

So what you actually meant was... Lack of a postcode in general is causing a problem for Irish water? I don't disagree with that

I have visions of the anti water brigade rejecting their allocated postcodes to try to hinder the process of billing. Not sure if it would be possible but as every possible stalling tactic has been used to date, it's quite likely that they'll try this as well.

ukoda

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I have visions of the anti water brigade rejecting their allocated postcodes to try to hinder the process of billing. Not sure if it would be possible but as every possible stalling tactic has been used to date, it's quite likely that they'll try this as well.

Maybe, but I doubt it, they get more post than just water bills, so I doubt they'll make that kinda association leading them to rejecting something like a postcode that would help them in other areas. their tactics to date seems to be just to ignore the bill or burn it

SpaceTime

Linking it to Irish Water would be the worst piece of PR in history!

The obvious one would be to put Eircode notifications out on their own!

ukoda

SpaceTime wrote: »

Linking it to Irish Water would be the worst piece of PR in history!

The obvious one would be to put Eircode notifications out on their own!

I don't think anyone was suggesting a link up between the 2. The discussion was around people not taking to eircode as an excuse to say they didn't get their bill

Impetus

Deleted User wrote: »

I have visions of the anti water brigade rejecting their allocated postcodes to try to hinder the process of billing. Not sure if it would be possible but as every possible stalling tactic has been used to date, it's quite likely that they'll try this as well.

While I have no problem paying for water or wine or any other product I consume, I do have a serious problem with one's house being assigned a unique ID, and this ID forming part of one's published postal address. This type of bureaucratic abuse happens nowhere else on planet earth, aside from Iran. If Eircode is allowed to be created in its proposed form - rather than a normal postcode (ie 4 or 5 digit number referring to an area), it will only facilitate an ID theft rampage. Not only is the Eircode objectionable from a personal privacy and IT security point of view, the Eircode clearly demonstrates the Hitleristic motives of the permanent government, and the cluelessness of the politicians in power, who are being over paid to act as representatives. Ireland would be better off with web based voting for every law, a la Switzerland where the democracy is exercised after church on Sundays.

7 billion people on planet earth can operate without Eircode granularity.

And many of those countries that have postcodes, which use a standard format - ie

Street name, house number
postcode town name

The exceptions being the Anglo Saxon countries - US, CA, GB, and AU - the usual suspects in re investing the wheel, with a focus on the dumbest way to do things. With Eircode Ireland will achieve a new high in terms of breach of international standards, breach of privacy/IT security risk facilitation, etc.

ukoda

Impetus wrote: »

While I have no problem paying for water or wine or any other product I consume, I do have a serious problem with one's house being assigned a unique ID, and this ID forming part of one's published postal address. This type of bureaucratic abuse happens nowhere else on planet earth, aside from Iran. If Eircode is allowed to be created in its proposed form - rather than a normal postcode (ie 4 or 5 digit number referring to an area), it will only facilitate an ID theft rampage. Not only is the Eircode objectionable from a personal privacy and IT security point of view, the Eircode clearly demonstrates the Hitleristic motives of the permanent government, and the cluelessness of the politicians in power, who are being over paid to act as representatives. Ireland would be better off with web based voting for every law, a la Switzerland where the democracy is exercised after church on Sundays.

7 billion people on planet earth can operate without Eircode granularity.

And many of those countries that have postcodes, which use a standard format - ie

Street name, house number
postcode town name

The exceptions being the Anglo Saxon countries - US, CA, GB, and AU - the usual suspects in re investing the wheel, with a focus on the dumbest way to do things. With Eircode Ireland will achieve a new high in terms of breach of international standards, breach of privacy/IT security risk facilitation, etc.

Oh for the love of god. The other 7 billion people in the world ALREADY have a unique identifier for their address and have for decades. It's called an address. Which in other countries is unique.

I, or anyone else will not be at any greater risk of ID theft after eircode launches. This is the most ridiculous nonsense I've ever read about ericode. It has no substance and it's purely a rant of near hysterical proportions.