National Postcodes to be introduced

ardmacha

ukoda wrote: »

Oh for the love of god. The other 7 billion people in the world ALREADY have a unique identifier for their address and have for decades. It's called an address. Which in other countries is unique.

I, or anyone else will not be at any greater risk of ID theft after eircode launches. This is the most ridiculous nonsense I've ever read about ericode. It has no substance and it's purely a rant of near hysterical proportions.

Indeed, many people in Ireland have unique addresses, my estate is the only one of its name in Ireland, although there is 2 in Britain with somewhat similar names. Is ID theft more common for people living in my estate than people living in an more common name?

Impetus

The answer to these issues is to have a standard postal address for each building.

ie street name, house number
postocde town name

Like much of the rest of the world uses.

In rural areas, house number = km address on the road - ie 1200 Cahir Road is 1.2km (1200 m) from the start of that road.
All you need to add is a 4 or 5 digit postcode to unique-ize the place name, get rid of county names in postal addresses, and make logistics and web searching easier. A postcode of this type can be used for marketing, customer location analysis, rapid address entry, statistics, whatever - with no added privacy risks for the householder.

ukoda

Impetus wrote: »

The answer to these issues is to have a standard postal address for each building.

ie street name, house number
postocde town name

Like much of the rest of the world uses.

In rural areas, house number = km address on the road - ie 1200 Cahir Road is 1.2km (1200 m) from the start of that road.
All you need to add is a 4 or 5 digit postcode to unique-ize the place name, get rid of county names in postal addresses, and make logistics and web searching easier. A postcode of this type can be used for marketing, customer location analysis, rapid address entry, statistics, whatever - with no added privacy risks for the householder.

There is no risk to privacy from eircode.

You either have a unique address or a unique postcode.

Either way. Having a unique way to identify your house exists throughout the world. The claim of privacy is a red herring used by people who don't like eircode.

Even the Data Protection officer couldn't actually think of a way eircode was a privacy issue.

And before anyone starts the nonsense of saying "oh it's a unquie key in a database" bull. My phone number is 100% unique to me. It's in many many databases. My identity is intact. If we are to follow the logic of some people then we should do away with unique phone numbers and 10 people should share a number to protect their privacy. Sure we can just keep dialling until we get the right person. Same way the postman keeps knocking till he finds the right house.

Impetus

ukoda wrote: »

The MPRN is 100% dumb and nothing more to it than what it is... A way to look up customers on ESB and supplier systems, it has nothing more attached to it and nothing hidden, it's purely a by product of the market opening in 2005 and the industry needing a code that could be used across the industry. The only bit of logic in it are that codes beginning 100 are pre market opening and codes begining with 103 are usually for properties connected after market opening.
Maybe you are thinking of the old ESB account numbers? called ZGC, theses had some smarts in them, Zone (usually a townland) Ground (a street or small area and Customer (the customer in that area) these have been dead and buried since 2005 tho. Trust me MPRNs have nothing hidden or smart about them.

Yes mail delivery is on the decline and you're correct in saying the annual statement can be emailed, but as I said, the numbers are low for people opting for this.

Back in the day the ESB created a 9 digit account number for each property. Which operated like a postcode - eg numbers beginning with 4000 were in Cork. Instead of keeping things simple, the bureaucratic idiots created two numbers - the MPRN and account number for each customer. Instead of porting the 9 digit ESB account number to an alternative electricity supplier if a change took place. ESB bills were printed out in account number order, and were therefore pre-sorted in delivery order for An Post etc.

Well managed countries tend to do everything as simply as possible. eg in Switzerland one had 4 digit postcodes. Germany had four digit postcodes too until west/east unification. ie a country with over 50 million people worked very efficiently using a 4 digit system. On the other side of the coin, dumb countries make everything as complicated and bureaucratic as possible. The capital of dumbness is Ireland. Never before in the history of mankind has a country had so much (in terms of financial resources in 2005) and quickly let it squirt down the drain, leaving 60 bn in debt - simply because of a lack of intelligent management of material issues.

It amazes me that http://www.eircode.ie is still online. How dumb can things get?

Impetus

ukoda wrote: »

There is no risk to privacy from eircode.

You either have a unique address or a unique postcode.

Either way. Having a unique way to identify your house exists throughout the world. The claim of privacy is a red herring used by people who don't like eircode.

Even the Data Protection officer couldn't actually think of a way eircode was a privacy issue.

And before anyone starts the nonsense of saying "oh it's a unquie key in a database" bull. My phone number is 100% unique to me. It's in many many databases. My identity is intact. If we are to follow the logic of some people then we should do away with unique phone numbers and 10 people should share a number to protect their privacy. Sure we can just keep dialling until we get the right person. Same way the postman keeps knocking till he finds the right house.

Rubbish. If your theory is correct one wouldn't need credit card numbers to bill a customer. The retailer would just tell Visa etc that Joe Mow in Ballymacdump bought 50 EUR of stuff in my shop today. He said that he had a Visa account, so pay me please.

ukoda

Impetus wrote: »

Rubbish. If your theory is correct one wouldn't need credit card numbers to bill a customer. The retailer would just tell Visa etc that Joe Mow in Ballymacdump bought 50 EUR of stuff in my shop today. He said that he had a Visa account, so pay me please.

Oh so you believe in unique identifiers now? My example was sarcastic in case you didn't realise.

ukoda

Impetus wrote: »

Back in the day the ESB created a 9 digit account number for each property. Which operated like a postcode - eg numbers beginning with 4000 were in Cork. Instead of keeping things simple, the bureaucratic idiots created two numbers - the MPRN and account number for each customer. Instead of porting the 9 digit ESB account number to an alternative electricity supplier if a change took place. ESB bills were printed out in account number order, and were therefore pre-sorted in delivery order for An Post etc.

There were and are very good reasons for the existence of the MPRN number which remains independent of the supplier and allows each supplier have their own account number.

The electricity industry operates very well under this system and it does not cause any issues.

Were you going to make an example about the draw backs of the MPRN system? Or is this just another rant about something you don't like.

There are no issues with MPRNs.

There are no issues with privacy from eircode.

Sam Russell

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

How does postie in Germany know the postcode is correct?
Is there a signpost on my house or anywhere that shows 64646 as the postcode?
No.
He would have to look up what town or area the postcode refers to, then he will know where to go.
How do we do it here?

Sean O'Hurley
Go to the bog, take a left at the stick in the mud, if you see a dead goat, you have gone to far. How do I know there's a dead goat? Well, I didn't move it. Would you move it?
Where was I, oh yes, take a left turn, follow the bog road for 5 miles, go through the forest, take a left, right, right, left, right and a left again.
Big red house with a balcony and a Passat in the drive
Co Cavan

Or you look up postcode 23456 and you'll know where it is.
Of course the old method is much quainter and harks back to a time that is long gone, something Ivan Yates would call "Pig in the Kitchen Irish"
I suppose you enjoy receiving letters from people who have nothing to do with you and vice versa?

Because we have in our infinite stupidity devised a system of unique random postcodes to go with our unique random non-addresses, how is anyone to be certain they have arrived at the correct address? It is not related to the one next door, nor is it related to any other in the street. In other parts of the world (all other parts of the world) you can ask a neighbour where is this address and they can deduce from their own postcode where a nearby one is likely to be. Furthermore, the street names and numbers help.

But not here. We do not have street names or numbers on most addresses, and now we have random codes. You would normally have to make this mad stuff up.

ukoda

Sam Russell wrote: »

Because we have in our infinite stupidity devised a system of unique random postcodes to go with our unique random non-addresses, how is anyone to be certain they have arrived at the correct address?

This is 2015, we navigate with smartphones and sat navs these days. Not a map and compass so much anymore.

And no one in the UK would have a notion where a postcode that wasn't their own is. There is no working out done. Same goes for US zip codes.

plodder

ukoda wrote: »

There are no issues with privacy from eircode.

A number of potential issues have been pointed out to you already. The risks might appear to be small and worth accepting, in order to solve the unique address problem, but that is quite a different issue. It's much better to honestly appraise the risks as best we can now, instead of hoping or pretending that there are no risks.

SpaceTime

ukoda wrote: »

This is 2015, we navigate with smartphones and sat navs these days. Not a map and compass so much anymore.

And no one in the UK would have a notion where a postcode that wasn't their own is. There is no working out done. Same goes for US zip codes.

The average punter mightn't but the average delivery driver definitely does!

ukoda

plodder wrote: »

A number of potential issues have been pointed out to you already. The risks might appear to be small and worth accepting, in order to solve the unique address problem, but that is quite a different issue. It's much better to honestly appraise the risks as best we can now, instead of hoping or pretending that there are no risks.

Well no, people have pointed out pre existing general security risks that exist in the world and tried to make out eircode is going to cause them.

People have such blind hatred of eircode that they will not honestly appraise the risk. That's my point.

ukoda

SpaceTime wrote: »

The average punter mightn't but the average delivery driver definitely does!

Your average delivery driver also has a sat nav.

dr.fuzzenstein

ukoda wrote: »

Well no, people have pointed out pre existing general security risks that exist in the world and tried to make out eircode is going to cause them.

People have such blind hatred of eircode that they will not honestly appraise the risk. That's my point.

Well, the tin foil hat, free man on the land, alien conspiracy, lefty loony, hippes and general oddball brigades definitely won't be happy with eircode.
Their biggest issue is privacy violation, they are concerned that now various government agencies might be able to find them and check out dodgy dole claims, various taxes and charges not paid, houses or add-ons built without planning permission, some "funky" weeds growing in the back-yard or simple fear of lizard people knocking on their door.
Don't worry, just tell them you're a Free Man and don't subscribe to their laws and they'll leave you alone.

plodder

ukoda wrote: »

Well no, people have pointed out pre existing general security risks that exist in the world and tried to make out eircode is going to cause them.

People have such blind hatred of eircode that they will not honestly appraise the risk. That's my point.

That may be your point. But, it's wrong. To say that these risks exist already is also wrong because we have no postcodes in this country and therefore no possibility that they can leak out in contexts where people wouldn't expect personal information to leak out. Like I said, the risk may be acceptable, but that's a different point.

Another point. If there are no privacy issues, then why is the government preparing a change to data protection law?

oscarBravo

Impetus wrote: »

The answer to these issues is to have a standard postal address for each building.

"I don't like eircodes, therefore more than half of the addresses in the country will have to change to suit me."

In rural areas, house number = km address on the road - ie 1200 Cahir Road is 1.2km (1200 m) from the start of that road.

You are aware that the vast, vast majority of rural roads don't have names?

ukoda

plodder wrote: »

That may be your point. But, it's wrong. To say that these risks exist already is also wrong because we have no postcodes in this country and therefore no possibility that they can leak out in contexts where people wouldn't expect personal information to leak out. Like I said, the risk may be acceptable, but that's a different point.

Another point. If there are no privacy issues, then why is the government preparing a change to data protection law?

Leak out?! My unquie address is already on google maps and several other public places. It won't have to "leak out" because it was never "in".

You'll be able to look up anyone's postcode online. Same way you can look up and validate any address now on the An Post website.

If you think your address is private you are deluded. However if it's stored as part of your record in database along with your other info. Then yes it could be classified as private in that case. But on its own (which it is with eircode) it is not private, never has and never will be.

This is a prime example of what I'm talking about, addresses are already public (pre existing risk) and people are trying to shoehorn the risk on to eircode. It's ridiculous.

SpaceTime

ukoda wrote: »

Your average delivery driver also has a sat nav.

It still doesn't mean the items will be locally sortable.

To figure out what order to deliver the items you'd have to first decode the eircodes into a useful coding system. That means relabelling parcels at a central location and applying something that the drivers can read to organise their parcels in the van.

They're not just delivering one item. They'll have to actually figure out which packages to group together. Eircodes will only give you the routing key which is as useful as "Dublin 6" - better than nothing but there was an opportunity to make that 26 times smaller by just adding one more hierarchical letter.

That's where it falls down and is less useful than the British system in some ways.

It just seems to be a missed opportunity that's all I'm saying.
We need to be looking at these systems as ways of making Ireland more cost compeditive, cutting wasted fuel (CO2), reducing business overheads etc

Instead we've caved into the populists and avoided upsetting the property prices by refusing to use smaller areas than the Dublin district numbering introduced in the 19th century.

ukoda

SpaceTime wrote: »

It still doesn't mean the items will be locally sortable.

To figure out what order to deliver the items you'd have to first decode the eircodes into a useful coding system. That means relabelling parcels at a central location and applying something that the drivers can read to organise their parcels in the van.

They're not just delivering one item. They'll have to actually figure out which packages to group together. Eircodes will only give you the routing key which is as useful as "Dublin 6" - better than nothing but there was an opportunity to make that 26 times smaller by just adding one more hierarchical letter.

An Post and nightlne (who between them move more packages in Ireland than anyone else) have figured this out. Both support eircode and both say it will help them with sorting. Eircode can be used for routing and sorting. That's a fact.

SpaceTime

ukoda wrote: »

An Post and nightlne (who between them move more packages in Ireland than anyone else) have figured this out. Both support eircode and both say it will help them with sorting. Eircode can be used for routing and sorting. That's a fact.

It can be used for central sorting - yes.
Night line actually already relabel a lot of parcels for this purpose I've noticed.

plodder

ukoda wrote: »

Leak out?! My unquie address is already on google maps and several other public places. It won't have to "leak out" because it was never "in".

You'll be able to look up anyone's postcode online. Same way you can look up and validate any address now on the An Post website.

If you think your address is private you are deluded. However if it's stored as part of your record in database along with your other info. Then yes it could be classified as private in that case. But on its own (which it is with eircode) it is not private, never has and never will be.

This is a prime example of what I'm talking about, addresses are already public (pre existing risk) and people are trying to shoehorn the risk on to eircode. It's ridiculous.

One more time ...

Postcodes in every other developed country are anonymous and therefore not personally identifying. This means they are not subject to data protection law or company policies and can be bought and sold at will. Eircodes are personally identifying in many cases but because they are postcodes, they might end up on lists of information that is bought or sold, outside of this jurisdiction, and contrary to the privacy expectations of their owner. So, even if you click a box saying you don't want to share personal information, there is a risk your postcode could still leak out because the data controller doesn't know it is personal information.

ukoda

plodder wrote: »

One more time ...

Postcodes in every other developed country are anonymous and therefore not personally identifying. This means they are not subject to data protection law or company policies and can be bought and sold at will. Eircodes are personally identifying in many cases but because they are postcodes, they might end up on lists of information that is bought or sold, outside of this jurisdiction, and contrary to the privacy expectations of their owner. So, even if you click a box saying you don't want to share personal information, there is a risk your postcode could still leak out because the data controller doesn't know it is personal information.

One more time....it's not personal data. There is no "leaking out" if I want your postcode and your address it is publicly available.

If I want to know who lives at that eircode and all their data. Then that is not publicly available.

Can you see the difference?

plodder

ukoda wrote: »

One more time....it's not personal data. There is no "leaking out" if I want your postcode and your address it is publicly available.

An eircode is not personal data? If you live on your own it certainly is. Even if you don't, most people would want it to be protected the same as their address.

If I want to know who lives at that eircode and all their data. Then that is not publicly available.

Your address won't be available beacause everyone knows that addresses are personal information (or privacy sensitive at least). Your postcode might be public because most people think it is anonymous. and therefore not privacy sensitive.

SpaceTime

Seems the issue to be determined by the DPC was whether or not that unique ID is personal data or not.

It's as much personal data as a phone number is. A phone number is a unique ID but, doesn't tell you who I am either. Yet, afaik, that is treated as personal data.

I can see no major difference between an eircode and a landline number. They're both similarly unique IDs tied to a particular property. The only worrying bit is that an eircode cannot be changed. At least a phone number can be.

GJG

Impetus wrote: »

While I have no problem paying for water or wine or any other product I consume, I do have a serious problem with one's house being assigned a unique ID, and this ID forming part of one's published postal address. This type of bureaucratic abuse happens nowhere else on planet earth, aside from Iran. If Eircode is allowed to be created in its proposed form - rather than a normal postcode (ie 4 or 5 digit number referring to an area), it will only facilitate an ID theft rampage. Not only is the Eircode objectionable from a personal privacy and IT security point of view, the Eircode clearly demonstrates the Hitleristic motives of the permanent government, and the cluelessness of the politicians in power, who are being over paid to act as representatives. Ireland would be better off with web based voting for every law, a la Switzerland where the democracy is exercised after church on Sundays.

7 billion people on planet earth can operate without Eircode granularity.

And many of those countries that have postcodes, which use a standard format - ie

Street name, house number
postcode town name

The exceptions being the Anglo Saxon countries - US, CA, GB, and AU - the usual suspects in re investing the wheel, with a focus on the dumbest way to do things. With Eircode Ireland will achieve a new high in terms of breach of international standards, breach of privacy/IT security risk facilitation, etc.

You have a fairly wild theory of what will happen when "one's house [is] assigned a unique ID, and this ID forming part of one's published postal address". Presumably your house is one of the 40 per cent that do not have a unique address at the moment.

Can you specify which of your apocalyptic visions are already happening to the 60 per cent of addresses that already have a unique, published postal address?" Or the 100 per cent of residences in the north that already have unique addresses?

ukoda

plodder wrote: »

An eircode is not personal data? If you live on your own it certainly is. Even if you don't, most people would want it to be protected the same as their address.

Your address won't be available beacause everyone knows that addresses are personal information (or privacy sensitive at least). Your postcode might be public because most people think it is anonymous. and therefore not privacy sensitive.

No it's not personal. To be personal it needs to identify you as a person, eircode identifies a house. It can become personal when combined with other data. But on its own it is not personal. Otherwise Google, TomTom, Garmin et al are after publishing everyone's "private" data on all their devices as my exact unique address is on all their devices and websites.

I can pay for the An Post geo directory now and get every single address in Ireland. Quick someone call the guards and get An Post arrested for "leaking" my "private" data....

GJG

plodder wrote: »

A number of potential issues have been pointed out to you already. The risks might appear to be small and worth accepting, in order to solve the unique address problem, but that is quite a different issue. It's much better to honestly appraise the risks as best we can now, instead of hoping or pretending that there are no risks.

Well, they haven't been pointed out to me.

I personally asked the (now former) Data Protection Commissioner what unsurmountable privacy issues there were with a unique postcode, and he couldn't cite any.

So, just to indulge me, rather than stating that they have been pointed out, could you let me know what they are? I'm referring to issues that are specific to unique postcodes, that they cause.

ukoda

GJG wrote: »

Well, they haven't been pointed out to me.

I personally asked the (now former) Data Protection Commissioner what unsurmountable privacy issues there were with a unique postcode, and he couldn't cite any.

So, just to indulge me, rather than stating that they have been pointed out, could you let me know what they are? I'm referring to issues that are specific to unique postcodes, that they cause.

The current DP officer couldn't cite any either. She's on record as saying she can't think of an example

plodder

ukoda wrote: »

No it's not personal. To be personal it needs to identify you as a person, eircode identifies a house. It can become personal when combined with other data. But on its own it is not personal. Otherwise Google, TomTom, Garmin et al are after publishing everyone's "private" data on all their devices as my exact unique address is on all their devices and websites.

It's not the act of publishing someone's Eircode or address that is the problem. It would be publishing the Eircode with some other piece of information.

For example, if it emerges that two people residing at W12 8QT in the UK voted for UKIP in the next election, it wouldn't reveal very much. But, if it emerges that two people from D04 XP21 (in Ireland) voted for Fianna Fail, then you know exactly who it was.

The current DP officer couldn't cite any either. She's on record as saying she can't think of an example

That's not the same thing as saying 'there is no privacy issue' and the previous DP commissioner was a lot more leery about it.

LeinsterDub

oscarBravo wrote: »

"I don't like eircodes, therefore more than half of the addresses in the country will have to change to suit me."

You are aware that the vast, vast majority of rural roads don't have names?

Are they also aware the vast, vast majority of roads have 2 ends ?