National Postcodes to be introduced

Jayuu

EvilMonkey wrote: »

At least you can easily give the council the exact locations of the "grafitti"

Only useful if they have a Garmin SatNav!

BrianD

aliveandkicking wrote: »

Response from DCC:

We have received a number of complaints about unofficial Post Code Signs that have gone up across the City. We have set up a file and are issuing warning letters under Section 152 of the Planning and Development Act 2000 – 2010. The warning letters will be issued and they have four weeks to respond.

I presume that it's warning letters only as technically the signs are on private property?

I noticed the sign on Kildare St. today. All Garmin have demonstrated that they have no respect for the city and their postcode system is useless as they are complicated and difficult to recall. There are two pictures posted here of postcodes for Kildare St. (presume either end) and none bear any resemblance to the other. Useless! Using postcodes based on sat nav/GPS is not the way forward.

conolan

BrianD wrote: »

There are two pictures posted here of postcodes for Kildare St. (presume either end) and none bear any resemblance to the other.

That's because they are 2 competing systems. I'm guilty of photoshopping the first one to make a point.

Anybody seen Gary? Is he on his holidays or just being quiet?

sovereign

I am really surprised that Garmin have done this - it just totally undermines the credibility of Loc8. I'm shocked that the Ordnance Survey, Enterprise Ireland and other Loc8 partners would support this type of behaviour.

It certainly strengthens the argument that there should be public ownership of the new postcode system and that the postcodes would be properly regulated and licenced.

One further question springs to mind - why are the Loc8 postcode signs necessary if the Loc8 code is supposed to bring you to within metres of the building anyway?

redalicat

In today's Indo: http://www.independent.ie/national-news/bogus-sign-campaign-streets-ahead-of-postcode-system-2464728.html

conolan

the council contacted the company's Irish software providers Loc8 Code earlier this week with their request.

Like the way they implied it's Loc8 are the culprits. Always dump your supplier in it!

recedite

conolan wrote: »

Anybody seen Gary? Is he on his holidays or just being quiet?

He's probably busy going up and down ladders :pac:

BrianD

Me thinks that Garmin, Loc8 are entirely missing the point of post codes in the first place!

Why do we need post codes? The obvious reason is addressing post and parcels. We know that post is in decline. Parcel business will always exist.

What they are increasingly being used for is marketing, business and government purposes. For these purposes, knowing precisely where somebody lives is always useful but not as useful as knowing where groups of my customers or citizens live. The problem with a system like Loc8 is that it's too precise and that's why post code systems like in the UK will always score over it. I haven't heard of any similar Garmin activity in places like the UK, USA and Australia that have good functioning post code systems.

You also have to remember that in Ireland we always seem to be very vague about addresses in the first place. Take a walk down Grafton st. and see how many numbers you'll see on the front of stores. Very few. In fact a few years ago, a certain mens retailer made a big deal about the fact that they had the address with street number as part of their marketing. In a country that doesn't use basic addresses properly, no wonder we are difficult to find!

We should be moving to a more streamlined version of our addresses. Often Irish addresses are too precise and almost written to provide walking directions. If there is a new development of houses off Main St. then I think the postal system will soon know where it is. There is no need to include main st. in the address.

We need a system of post codes similar to the UK. These are easy to remember and define pockets of people. There is still nothing to stop individuals providing a GPS location for their address if they wish. It would be better if we had a universal system that would apply to all sat nav types.

Jayuu

Waiting for the bus home yesterday I was passed by two guys, one with a ladder and the other with a stack of Garmin/Loc8 postcodes. I'm assuming that they were taking them down as opposed to putting up more.

This may have seemed like a clever stunt at the time but I think its rather backfired on them.

fricatus

New article on this in this morning's Irish Times...

I don't know whether this GLY and CK business is just makey-up stuff for illustration in the article, or whether it's being seriously considered, but it seems like a bit too much redundant information. The British get by with L31, G25, B57 etc., rather than LIV31, GLA25 or BHM57, so I don't see why we can't do the same.

If they're planning on using letters, why not just use the car registration letters? Everybody is familiar with them (or at least the main ones and those local to one's own local area).

This business of whether they should be "in" Irish or English is just stupid tokenism. So what, we're going to call Dublin 4 "B04" now? Waterford will be "P01" etc. - and what will they do with Kilkenny, Kildare and Kerry, now that they'll have to share the letter C with Cork, Clare and Cavan? Nuts...

Solution: make it numeric only! It's good enough for the Americans, the Japanese, the Australians, the Germans, the French, Spanish, Italians... but no, the Paddies have to reinvent the wheel once again! :rolleyes:

Postcodes could be introduced across State by year's end

HARRY McGEE Political Correspondent

POSTCODES ARE likely to be introduced throughout the State by the end of the year, following Government clearance for the tender process for the project to begin.

The Cabinet agreed to the procurement system for the national postcodes at its last meeting before Christmas, Minister for Communications Eamon Ryan has confirmed. The process to award the contract for the project – with estimated costs of less than €15 million – will be completed by summer.

Mr Ryan said the introduction of postcodes will lead to significant savings and efficiencies for the State. It would deliver more comprehensive statistical and geographical data, as well as open up new revenue streams, particularly for An Post.

The Government has approved the recommendations of consultants that the postcodes should be alpha-numeric, incorporating letters and numbers.

Dublin is the only location in the State with postal codes. Ireland is the only country in the EU, or among OECD countries, that does not have a nationwide postcode system.

Mr Ryan said one of the most important features of the system would be “memorability”. In practice that means a location will be identified by its initials, in a manner roughly analogous to the vehicle registration system.

The system will also retain elements of the existing Dublin post codes. The current postcode of Dublin 7 could begin D07 and continue with numbers that pinpoint the location to a particular property. Similarly, the postcode for addresses in other areas will contain letters that readily identify the area, followed by a series of numbers that pinpoint the property. Possible permutations might include: GLY (Galway); CK (Cork); and KKY (Kilkenny).

A departmental briefing paper refers to two models – a “postal sector” model and a location model – being combined. The postal sector model would divide the country into post towns (identified by letter) and each post town into groups of approximately 40 to 50 properties (identified by number). There would be approximately 200 post towns.

The paper says the model is capable of being refined into a location-based code – in other words identifying each individual property within a post town. It says this hybrid model will provide the basis for the procurement for a national postcode system.

Several companies developing global positioning technology – notably Garmin – have devised all-Ireland digital address codes that provide precise addresses. While these codes will not provide the basis for the national system, the Department of Communications said these companies were free to tender. The department believes the availability of codes will ensure more efficient sharing of information between agencies and companies. It also says it will help the Central Statistics Office unlock more data and help emergency services.

The main issue that has divided the Cabinet relates to whether the codes should be in Irish or English. The document discloses the Minister has received representations from Irish language organisations, arguing in favour of the Irish version of the post-town name.

Mr Ryan recommended the Irish language version of post-towns should take precedence, insofar as it did not lead to difficulties in disseminating the postcode to the public because of major differences between Irish- and English-language versions of post towns, duplication or other operational difficulties. In Gaeltacht areas, the letters would refer to the Irish placename.

Mr Ryan said memorability would be important. “I think it should be something you retain in your mind, a postal code that can make sense for the area and is not just a random series of letters and numbers.”

He also said An Post, after initial reluctance, had become more receptive. “It recognises that the postal business has to change and look at new business streams and opportunities. Postal codes will help new internet business.”

Del2005

So we've looked around the world and decided on the worst system we could find, too add to the fun it'll use a language the majority of people can't understand.

marmurr1916

fricatus wrote: »

New article on this in this morning's Irish Times...

I don't know whether this GLY and CK business is just makey-up stuff for illustration in the article, or whether it's being seriously considered, but it seems like a bit too much redundant information. The British get by with L31, G25, B57 etc., rather than LIV31, GLA25 or BHM57, so I don't see why we can't do the same.

Actually the British use two letters also. For example Birmingham post codes start with B, Bristol post codes with BS, Belfast post codes with BT, Glasgow post codes with G, Guernsey post codes with GY etc, etc. (plus a separate letter system for London).

fricatus wrote: »

If they're planning on using letters, why not just use the car registration letters? Everybody is familiar with them (or at least the main ones and those local to one's own local area).

Because there will be 200 'post towns', each of which will require its own letter code. There are only about 27 car registration letter codes.

A departmental briefing paper refers to two models – a “postal sector” model and a location model – being combined. The postal sector model would divide the country into post towns (identified by letter) and each post town into groups of approximately 40 to 50 properties (identified by number). There would be approximately 200 post towns.

The paper says the model is capable of being refined into a location-based code – in other words identifying each individual property within a post town. It says this hybrid model will provide the basis for the procurement for a national postcode system.

fricatus wrote: »

This business of whether they should be "in" Irish or English is just stupid tokenism. So what, we're going to call Dublin 4 "B04" now? Waterford will be "P01" etc. - and what will they do with Kilkenny, Kildare and Kerry, now that they'll have to share the letter C with Cork, Clare and Cavan? Nuts...

Solution: make it numeric only! It's good enough for the Americans, the Japanese, the Australians, the Germans, the French, Spanish, Italians... but no, the Paddies have to reinvent the wheel once again! :rolleyes:

I can't see the Irish version of names being used where there's a major difference between the Irish and English names, despite the wishes of Gaelgeoirs. It didn't happen for car registration letter codes, no reason to believe it's going to happen for post town letter codes. According to the article:

The main issue that has divided the Cabinet relates to whether the codes should be in Irish or English. The document discloses the Minister has received representations from Irish language organisations, arguing in favour of the Irish version of the post-town name.

Mr Ryan recommended the Irish language version of post-towns should take precedence, insofar as it did not lead to difficulties in disseminating the postcode to the public because of major differences between Irish- and English-language versions of post towns, duplication or other operational difficulties. In Gaeltacht areas, the letters would refer to the Irish placename.

If the letter code for the post town of Cork is 'C', then it could just as easily stand for Corcaigh, so there's no difficulty there.

Likewise, the letter code for the post town of Dingle (assuming Dingle will be a post town) could be DG, which could just as easily stand for An Daingean. Again no difficulty.

It's when you've got the likes of Waterford that you'll get problems. In cases like that, my guess is that the code chosen will be 'WD' for Waterford, rather than 'PL' for Port Lairge (PL is more likely to be used for Portlaoise) as otherwise it would 'lead to difficulties in disseminating the postcode to the public because of major differences between Irish- and English-language versions of post towns, duplication or other operational difficulties'.

I'd imagine we'll end up with postcodes which use 1 or 2 letters at the beginning (for the post town), followed by 2 numbers for the main postal district (eg D-04 for Dublin 4), followed by several numbers to represent either an individual address or cluster of addresses.

For example, D-04 0455 for an individual address/cluster of addresses in Dublin 4.

Blisterman

Why is everyone saying it has to be D04-XXX? The english system would be just D4-XXX. The first part can either have one or two numbers. For example, I used to live in SE1-XXX. My ex lived in SE14-XXX.

marmurr1916

Blisterman wrote: »

Why is everyone saying it has to be D04-XXX? The english system would be just D4-XXX. The first part can either have one or two numbers. For example, I used to live in SE1-XXX. My ex lived in SE14-XXX.

What's wrong with D-04 XXX (or D-04 XXXX or even D-04 XXXXX)?

You can have D-01 to D-99, the same amount of top level sub-divisions as you can have by using the UK system (CR0 to CR99).

An example from the UK system is BD6 5NE

There can be up to 26 (A to Z) x 26 (A to Z) 'post towns', each of which can be divided into 100 main postal districts (0 to 99)*.

These main postal districts can then be sub-divided into 10 lesser units (0 to 9), which in turn can be sub-divided into 26 lesser units (A to Z), followed by 26 of the smallest units (A to Z).


*before anyone says that '0' is never used, there are Croydon postcodes that begin CR0.

Jayuu

I think the point blisterman was making is that the 0 in D01-D09 is unnecessary and actually changes the old postal address.

So D4-1234 is better than D04-1234. The system doesn't preclude using two digits so why have a redundant 0 in the code.

Gary Toolan

It appears to me that the requirement to include County names or initials has ben dreamt up specifically to exclude the home-grown solution.......why reinvent the wheel, unless the winner of "tendering" process has already been decided.....

mackerski

Gary Toolan wrote: »

It appears to me that the requirement to include County names or initials has ben dreamt up specifically to exclude the home-grown solution.......why reinvent the wheel, unless the winner of "tendering" process has already been decided.....

But there isn't a The home-grown solution - there are several home-grown solutions and, one supposes, a bunch of potential solution providers who have been keeping their powder dry and generally being good tendering citizens.

The whole point of a tendering process is that you not buy the first product offered to you until all possibilities have been objectively considered.

This doesn't, of course, mean that a winner hasn't been decided. Have a look at the reference code on a post box anywhere in the country and see if it begins with a prefix rather like the ones our postcodes are supposed to get.

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you, eh?

recedite

Mr Ryan recommended the Irish language version of post-towns should take precedence, insofar as it did not lead to difficulties in disseminating the postcode to the public because of major differences between Irish- and English-language versions of post towns

Ah, so we give precedence to the Irish unless its different to the English.

redalicat

Mr Ryan said one of the most important features of the system would be “memorability”. In practice that means a location will be identified by its initials, in a manner roughly analogous to the vehicle registration system...Mr Ryan said memorability would be important. “I think it should be something you retain in your mind, a postal code that can make sense for the area and is not just a random series of letters and numbers.”

Why it must be memorable in regards to the area? I'm not saying it should be done this particular way, but as an ex-pat American, we had to remember just 5 digits for the code at our house which did not represent anything obvious about the area (i.e., an abbreviation of a county). If we addressed something to someone outside of our area, we looked it up in our personal address book. I'm not trying to be mean, I'm just confused.

SPDUB

marmurr1916 wrote: »

I can't see the Irish version of names being used where there's a major difference between the Irish and English names, despite the wishes of Gaelgeoirs. It didn't happen for car registration letter codes

Not when the car registration letter codes were set up in 1987 that's true but they later had to amend the system to allow Irish or English county names to be used

It's when you've got the likes of Waterford that you'll get problems. In cases like that, my guess is that the code chosen will be 'WD' for Waterford, rather than 'PL' for Port Lairge (PL is more likely to be used for Portlaoise) as otherwise it would 'lead to difficulties in disseminating the postcode to the public because of major differences between Irish- and English-language versions of post towns, duplication or other operational difficulties'.

Under the recent Irish language act though they have to give equal prominence to the Irish language version so they would have to disseminate both versions ( and people have sued and won when they didn't provide Irish version of items ) and allow people to choose which to use

Mr Ryan recommended the Irish language version of post-towns should take precedence, insofar as it did not lead to difficulties in disseminating the postcode to the public because of major differences between Irish- and English-language versions of post towns

So what happens with Dublin under his proposals I'd love to know

Why it must be memorable in regards to the area?

Presumably so that people will easily remember it and actually use it properly ( a problem that occurs with the current Dublin system )

marmurr1916

SPDUB wrote: »

Not when the car registration letter codes were set up in 1987 that's true but they later had to amend the system to allow Irish or English county names to be used.

You sure about this? I've never seen a car with the registration number 09-PL-0123, where PL stands for Port Lairge (Irish version of Waterford).

I have seen the Irish language name of a county being placed in full above the registration number, but the letter code for the county is always based on its English language name.

SPDUB wrote: »

Under the recent Irish language act though they have to give equal prominence to the Irish language version so they would have to disseminate both versions ( and people have sued and won when they didn't provide Irish version of items ) and allow people to choose which to use.

That's for publications, not for the letter codes used for post codes.

SPDUB wrote: »

So what happens with Dublin under his proposals I'd love to know

I'd imagine that D will be used instead of BAC.

As far as I can see, the only way letter codes that are consistent with the Irish language version of a post town's name will be used is if they're also consistent with the English language version of the name.

For example, C can stand for both Cork and Corcaigh. MA can stand for both Mallow and Mala, CM for both Clonmel and Cluain Meala and so on.

AndrewMc

fricatus wrote: »

New article on this in this morning's Irish Times...

Several companies developing global positioning technology – notably Garmin – have devised all-Ireland digital address codes that provide precise addresses. While these codes will not provide the basis for the national system, the Department of Communications said these companies were free to tender.

Am I right in thinking this is very, very sneaky, slimy wording, at least based on reading the first few posts of this thread? The Garmin (loc8, I presume) system would never have been accepted since the department had already decided the UK-style postcode was what must be supplied?

SPDUB

marmurr1916 wrote: »

You sure about this? I've never seen a car with the registration number 09-PL-0123, where PL stands for Port Lairge (Irish version of Waterford).

I have seen the Irish language name of a county being placed in full above the registration number, but the letter code for the county is always based on its English language name.

Yes but even in Dublin BAC is rare .I've only ever seen a handful .

That's for publications, not for the letter codes used for post codes.

Yes it's mostly applied to publications but it also applies to situations where the language is/can be an issue

Am I right in thinking this is very, very sneaky, slimy wording, at least based on reading the first few posts of this thread? The Garmin (loc8, I presume) system would never have been accepted since the department had already decided the UK-style postcode was what must be supplied?

How is it sneaky .Ever since they announced postcodes the format they said they liked was something similar to the UK system .

AndrewMc

SPDUB wrote: »

How is it sneaky .Ever since they announced postcodes the format they said they liked was something similar to the UK system .

My problem is that to the casual observer reading this article (and many "journalists" who simply regurgitate press releases), the wording implies Garmin/loc8/etc were free to tender their systems, and that it's their fault if they didn't. But since all such database-less approaches to postcodes have been rejected in advance, to even mention them just seems dishonest to me. They're not interested in anybody tendering an actual post-code system, just somebody to do the grunt work of trawling through maps, counting houses and drawing boxes around areas to give them a code.

!MAVERICK!

are these those new Garmin signs placed on streets around the City ?

antoinolachtnai

AndrewMc wrote: »

They're not interested in anybody tendering an actual post-code system, just somebody to do the grunt work of trawling through maps, counting houses and drawing boxes around areas to give them a code.

Well, you need a central register of addresses no matter what.

busman

marmurr1916 wrote: »

You sure about this? I've never seen a car with the registration number 09-PL-0123, where PL stands for Port Lairge (Irish version of Waterford).

I have seen the Irish language name of a county being placed in full above the registration number, but the letter code for the county is always based on its English language name.



That's for publications, not for the letter codes used for post codes.



I'd imagine that D will be used instead of BAC.

As far as I can see, the only way letter codes that are consistent with the Irish language version of a post town's name will be used is if they're also consistent with the English language version of the name.

For example, C can stand for both Cork and Corcaigh. MA can stand for both Mallow and Mala, CM for both Clonmel and Cluain Meala and so on.

Why do we need a postcode that needs to reference any town?
It's just a way to group a number of houses in an area.

If you have the code you still need the database to know where it is!

Edit: Basically the proposed Postcode is just shorthand for a group of address.
You still need my full address to know where my house is.
On its own it is of limited use.

mackerski

AndrewMc wrote: »

But since all such database-less approaches to postcodes have been rejected in advance, to even mention them just seems dishonest to me. They're not interested in anybody tendering an actual post-code system, just somebody to do the grunt work of trawling through maps, counting houses and drawing boxes around areas to give them a code.

Are you aware of any postcode system in existence anywhere in the world that uses a simple co-ordinate system? The working group has stipulated certain things about how a postcode should work - among them stuff like the alphanumeric format and mnemonic post-town representations that you could consider to be limiting participation - but to consider co-ordinate-based systems and reject them in advance for the same reasons other countries did can in no way be considered sneaky.

marmurr1916

busman wrote: »

Why do we need a postcode that needs to reference any town?
It's just a way to group a number of houses in an area.

That's the point of postcodes - to group addresses in a given area.

It allows for all sorts of socio-economic analysis, based on these types of postcodes, that can't be achieved with pure co-ordinate codes that don't group addresses.

For example, UK postcodes allow for the ACORN classification of areas, something that would be impossible if pure co-ordinate codes were used.

busman wrote: »

If you have the code you still need the database to know where it is!

Edit: Basically the proposed Postcode is just shorthand for a group of address.
You still need my full address to know where my house is.
On its own it is of limited use.

If we end up more or less replicating the UK system, all you'll need is a house number/name and the post code.

For example 13, D4 1AB would be enough to send a letter to 13 Some Street, Dublin D4 1AB.

I've received proof of postage from UK post offices where all they do is put down the street number and the postcode - all the information they need to find the precise address.

EDIT: From reading the Irish Times article, this is the system we're going to end up with:

A departmental briefing paper refers to two models – a “postal sector” model and a location model – being combined. The postal sector model would divide the country into post towns (identified by letter) and each post town into groups of approximately 40 to 50 properties (identified by number). There would be approximately 200 post towns.

The paper says the model is capable of being refined into a location-based code – in other words identifying each individual property within a post town. It says this hybrid model will provide the basis for the procurement for a national postcode system.

So the postcodes will be detailed enough to allow each individual address to be identified, without the need for street numbers. In theory, you could send a letter to someone with just their name and the post code on the envelope.

Alun

It's the same in the Netherlands, 4 digits and 2 letters plus the house number is all you need. Every single road or street that has buildings on it has a name also, even if it's on a dyke in the back end of nowhere and only has one house on it.