National Postcodes to be introduced

ukoda

Carawaystick wrote: »

I'm pretty sure they said it'd be done before the end of April too.

I'm just going by the latest information available to us from eircode to answer the other posters question. I assume your comment is a dig at eircode for being delayed?

Bayberry

ukoda wrote: »

I'm just going by the latest information available to us from eircode to answer the other posters question. I assume your comment is a dig at eircode for being delayed?

What dig? I think he was just pointing out that

the latest information available to us from eircode

has actually been incredibly consistent - it has always been wrong, and dates have always been pushed back. (Apparently, the contract doesn't have any penalties for delays. And because it's "commercially sensitive information", we'll probably never find out whether these persistent delays have actually cost the taxpayer even more money).

The interesting thing about using government bodies to "push" the use of eircodes is that it will tend to make people think about them as "PPS numbers for houses". And just as nobody would ever give their PPS number to Amazon or iTunes, any lingering impression that eircodes are for "government use only" might make people reluctant to use eircodes in the one area that the public thinks that a postcode will be useful.

ukoda

Bayberry wrote: »

What dig? I think he was just pointing out that has actually been incredibly consistent - it has always been wrong, and dates have always been pushed back. (Apparently, the contract doesn't have any penalties for delays. And because it's "commercially sensitive information", we'll probably never find out whether these persistent delays have actually cost the taxpayer even more money).

The interesting thing about using government bodies to "push" the use of eircodes is that it will tend to make people think about them as "PPS numbers for houses". And just as nobody would ever give their PPS number to Amazon or iTunes, any lingering impression that eircodes are for "government use only" might make people reluctant to use eircodes in the one area that the public thinks that a postcode will be useful.

It was always spring. Then they pushed it back to June. So one short delay on the original timeline.

As for the rest of your theory, let's wait and see.

Original timeline?
May be the original timeline for this version, but hasn't this process been going on for decades!
I remember being informed that they were only a couple of years away in 2004.

ukoda

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Original timeline?
May be the original timeline for this version, but hasn't this process been going on for decades!
I remember being informed that they were only a couple of years away in 2004.

The poster specifically mentioned eircodes delay and their information. Not talking about the whole postcode process, which yes had been going on for over a decade now

Bayberry

ukoda wrote: »

The poster specifically mentioned eircodes delay and their information.

Right, because announcing a new name means that they started with a completely clean slate.

The same people, the same process, the same shambles.

Bayberry

It's instructive to read the timeline laid out in Wikipedia. It'd almost be funny, if it wasn't so sad.

Wikipedia wrote:

In 2005 it became the policy of the Government of Ireland to introduce a national scheme of postcodes.

In May 2005, Noel Dempsey, the Minister for Communications announced that postcodes would be introduced by 1 January 2008,[13] His successor as minister, Eamon Ryan, announced in August 2007 that he was delaying the project pending additional consultation and investigation into the need.[14] However, on 24 February 2008 The Sunday Times reported that Ryan was finalising the system and hoped to bring the plans to cabinet before the summer of 2008, for introduction in 2009.[15]

An Post was quoted as saying "it would be at the heart of the introduction"[15] and the report of PA Consultants indicated that An Post should be paid over €27 million for its involvement.[16]

Following further delays, in September 2009 the cabinet agreed to go ahead with the project. It was to be put out to tender with the end of 2011 given as the date by which postcodes should be assigned.[17] In January 2010 Minister Ryan stated in the Dáil that the exact nature of the code would not be decided until the implementation tender process had been completed but that a Location Code with GPS coordinates should be part of the system implemented.[18] On 29 January 2010, a tender to select consultants to assist the Minister for Communications in deciding on the way forward was issued.[19]

The project was again delayed, but in December 2010 the government agreed to seek tenders for procurement of national postcodes, with an estimated cost of €15 million, with the contract to be awarded in the summer of 2011 with the codes introduced by the end of that year.[20] According to the Pre-Qualification Questionnaire the contract was to have been awarded in August 2011, with work to begin on 1 September.[21] The Department published an update in September 2011, however, that the "procurement milestones given in the PQQ are indicative. The procurement process is still ongoing."[22]

On 29 June 2013 The Irish Times reported that the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Pat Rabbitte, was to bring details to the cabinet meeting of 2 July. According to the report, a postcode operator was to be appointed by September 2013 and every householder and business was to be issued a code by July 2014.[10] Following a cabinet meeting on 8 October 2013 Rabbitte announced that a unique seven-character code would be assigned to every post-box in the state. A consortium led by Capita Ireland had been awarded the tender to develop, implement and operate the system.[2] Householders are to be notified of their codes in early 2015.[1]

Impetus

It is misleading and numb-headed to be repeatedly refer to the Eircode as a “postcode”. It is not a postcode. It is a building identification "number" (ie alphameric), designed by government bureaucrats to selfishly suit them, for their purposes, and nobody else. It has nothing to do with sorting or delivering post.

Successful things are usually simple – as are most postcode systems in Europe. This is a nonsensically random, meaningless code as far as human beings are concerned. Post and packages travel internationally and within Europe. This code system is incompatible with all other systems in use in the rest of the world. It will cost a fortune to convert systems and software and address data, to no avail to either An Post, DHL, UPS, Fedex, or anybody visiting some address they are not familiar with.

Its implementation, if it will ever be implemented, will still leave Ireland with some 50% of addresses that have no road name or building number on that road. A fairly basic infrastructure in any first world country.

A dumb code system for a poorly administered country. Probably the most poorly administered country in the European space.

In the age of shopping online, which most Irish companies have not yet woken up to, leaving Amazon and similar to spread the seeds of blight to main streets all over the country, the minimum one might ask for is a logical addressing system to minimise the delivery costs, and address verification for payment security purposes.

ukoda

Bayberry wrote: »

Right, because announcing a new name means that they started with a completely clean slate.

The same people, the same process, the same shambles.

Look I'm just saying that from when they gave the contract to capita and eircode was announced the time frame for delivery was "Spring 2015" that date had slipped by a month or 2. That is all I'm saying.

ukoda

Impetus wrote: »

It is misleading and numb-headed to be repeatedly refer to the Eircode as a “postcode”. It is not a postcode. It is a building identification "number" (ie alphameric), designed by government bureaucrats to selfishly suit them, for their purposes, and nobody else. It has nothing to do with sorting or delivering post.

Successful things are usually simple – as are most postcode systems in Europe. This is a nonsensically random, meaningless code as far as human beings are concerned. Post and packages travel internationally and within Europe. This code system is incompatible with all other systems in use in the rest of the world. It will cost a fortune to convert systems and software and address data, to no avail to either An Post, DHL, UPS, Fedex, or anybody visiting some address they are not familiar with.

Its implementation, if it will ever be implemented, will still leave Ireland with some 50% of addresses that have no road name or building number on that road. A fairly basic infrastructure in any first world country.

A dumb code system for a poorly administered country. Probably the most poorly administered country in the European space.

In the age of shopping online, which most Irish companies have not yet woken up to, leaving Amazon and similar to spread the seeds of blight to main streets all over the country, the minimum one might ask for is a logical addressing system to minimise the delivery costs, and address verification for payment security purposes.

Well we could listen to you. Or we could listen to An Post, the people who actually deliver mail and they tell us eircode suits their needs for post delivery.

But I'm sure you've some conspiracy theory on that too.

Bayberry

ukoda wrote: »

Well we could listen to you. Or we could listen to An Post, the people who actually deliver mail and they tell us eircode suits their needs for post delivery.

Of course it suits them - it's a unique key to a field in a database that they built and that everyone else has to pay to access.

And I don't believe that they ever said that it suits their needs for post delivery (though I'm open to correction on that) - they already have a system in place for doing that without eircodes.

ukoda

Bayberry wrote: »

Of course it suits them - it's a unique key to a field in a database that they built and that everyone else has to pay to access.

And I don't believe that they ever said that'll it suits their needs for post delivery (though I'm open to correction on that) - they already have a system in place for doing that without eircodes.

I'll correct you so, they have changed all their mail sorting systems to utilise eircode

clewbays

I came across a link to an amendment to the Communications Regulation (Postal Services) (Amendment) Bill 2015 on the oireachtas website. See http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=28914&&CatID=59

Does this mean that the legislation stage has been completed to satisfy the DPC advice?

Impetus

ukoda wrote: »

Well we could listen to you. Or we could listen to An Post, the people who actually deliver mail and they tell us eircode suits their needs for post delivery.

But I'm sure you've some conspiracy theory on that too.

Give me a technical explanation please? An Post's system is capable of reading the address on an envelope and barcoding it with a number that refers to the lat/long of the address. The Eircode also just decodes to the lat/long of the address. If the Eircode was all numeric (as in 0123456789) like Middle Eastern car license plates and Japanese postcodes in countries who do not use the Roman alphabet, I would agree. Because all numeric is the most machine readable and logical. The French postcode is very elegant in that it uses the first two digits for the "county" or department, and the "county town" gets a 000 - eg Alpes Maratime department centre of Nice is 06000. Antibes 06600, Cannes 06400, Juan-les-Pins 06600, etc. Numerically logical as all these towns are in the same area in the same department. And the centre of town is 000. Easy to remember.

As for postal delivery, large users of the post and po boxes have their own postcodes. This speeds up the accurate delivery of post in big companies, and ensures that people who have po boxes get their mail delivered to that box. Unlike Ireland.

The only thing wrong with the French system is that county names are listed in alphabetic order when being assigned the first two digits of the postcode. In the German, Swiss and most other systems, all towns beginning with say 5 are in the same region, and so on. So somebody whose postcode begins with 8 is in or around Zurich area.

The proposed Eircode will use deliberately random "numbering" which makes a useless code even more useless and clueless.

Impetus

clewbays wrote: »

I came across a link to an amendment to the Communications Regulation (Postal Services) (Amendment) Bill 2015 on the oireachtas website. See http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=28914&&CatID=59

Does this mean that the legislation stage has been completed to satisfy the DPC advice?

The pdf links on this page do not work. My initial reaction is corrupt insider uncivil service, oirish, stupid, etc.

Impetus

Perhaps it is time to add a third item to the upcoming referenda, even at this late stage?:

Postcodes

Do you want Ireland to have a simple, privacy respecting, all numeric postcode system, as is used in all continental European countries, and is compatible with them on an international/intra-European basis, or do you want the permanent government dictatorship to enforce on you an Eircode, which is about 25x as intrusive on your privacy as the next best police state based coding system - ie the one used in GB?

Trouwe Ier

Originally Posted by: Impetus

The pdf links on this page do not work. My initial reaction is corrupt insider uncivil service, oirish, stupid, etc


THE LINK WORKED FINE FOR ME.....AND I AM A PUBLIC SERVANT FOR GOOD MEASURE!

WHATEVER THE CONTENT OF ALL THE FOREGOING POSTS AND THE MERITS AND MOTIVES OF ALL OF US WHO HAVE POSTED ON THIS TOPIC, THE "ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM" MAY BE A SOON-TO-BE-WITNESSED HYSTERICAL REACTION OF SOME "COMMUNITY GROUPS" WHEN THE ROUTING KEYS ARE PUBLICISED.

FROM WHAT I HAVE SEEN ON ANOTHER FORUM, IT APPEARS THAT ONLY 15 LETTERS WILL BE USED FOR ROUTING KEYS, SO ASSUMING THAT "D" WILL DESIGNATE DUBLIN, THERE MAY WELL BE ONLY 14 LETTERS (MAXIMUM) FOR THE OTHER 25 COUNTIES. THE FORUM STATED THAT THE FOLLOWING LETTERS WOULD BE USED.

A, C, D, E, F, H, K, N, P, R, T, V, W, X or Y

NO "D" FOR DONEGAL
NO "G" FOR GALWAY
NO "L" FOR LAOIS, LEITRIM, LIMERICK, LONGFORD OR LOUTH
SIMILARLY, "D" WILL NOT BE AVAILABLE FOR LOUTH EITHER (DUNDALK, DROGHEDA)
NO "M" FOR MAYO OR MONAGHAN
NO "O" FOR OFFALY
NO "S" FOR SLIGO

I LIVE IN LIMERICK, SO WE COULD, FOR EXAMPLE BE ASSIGNED "X" AND IT COULD ENCOMPASS LARGE SWATHES OF CLARE, TIPPERARY, PERHAPS SOUTH OFFALY AND SOUTH GALWAY TOO (THE (061) STD CODE GOES INTO GALWAY).

THIS MIGHT WELL BE A SMART PR MOVE AS SOME PEOPLE, ESPECIALLY IN CLARE ARE HYPER-SENSITIVE ABOUT BEING ASSOCIATED WITH LIMERICK.

I WONDER IF IT WILL BE THE CASE THAT OUTSIDE OF DUBLIN, THE ROUTING KEY LETTERS WILL BE COMPLETELY RANDOMLY ALLOCATED AND BEAR NO RELATION TO THE INITIALS OF ANY TOWNS OR COUNTIES IN THE AREAS TO WHICH THEY ARE ASSIGNED.

INCIDENTALLY, MY OWN ORGANISATION HAS AMENDED ITS DATABASES TO TAKE ACCOUNT OF WHAT ARE DESCRIBED AS "POST CODES" BUT HAS NOT YET RECEIVED THE API.

dr.fuzzenstein

I'm deaf now.

ukoda

Impetus wrote: »

Perhaps it is time to add a third item to the upcoming referenda, even at this late stage?:

Postcodes

Do you want Ireland to have a simple, privacy respecting, all numeric postcode system, as is used in all continental European countries, and is compatible with them on an international/intra-European basis, or do you want the permanent government dictatorship to enforce on you an Eircode, which is about 25x as intrusive on your privacy as the next best police state based coding system - ie the one used in GB?

Perhaps it's time to move on and accept that we now have a postcode. You're free to post what you want here but I'm not going to rehash the same old tired debate with you again.

Impetus

Trouwe Ier wrote: »

Originally Posted by: Impetus

The pdf links on this page do not work. My initial reaction is corrupt insider uncivil service, oirish, stupid, etc


THE LINK WORKED FINE FOR ME.....AND I AM A PUBLIC SERVANT FOR GOOD MEASURE!

WHATEVER THE CONTENT OF ALL THE FOREGOING POSTS AND THE MERITS AND MOTIVES OF ALL OF US WHO HAVE POSTED ON THIS TOPIC, THE "ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM" MAY BE A SOON-TO-BE-WITNESSED HYSTERICAL REACTION OF SOME "COMMUNITY GROUPS" WHEN THE ROUTING KEYS ARE PUBLICISED.

FROM WHAT I HAVE SEEN ON ANOTHER FORUM, IT APPEARS THAT ONLY 15 LETTERS WILL BE USED FOR ROUTING KEYS, SO ASSUMING THAT "D" WILL DESIGNATE DUBLIN, THERE MAY WELL BE ONLY 14 LETTERS (MAXIMUM) FOR THE OTHER 25 COUNTIES. THE FORUM STATED THAT THE FOLLOWING LETTERS WOULD BE USED.

A, C, D, E, F, H, K, N, P, R, T, V, W, X or Y

NO "D" FOR DONEGAL
NO "G" FOR GALWAY
NO "L" FOR LAOIS, LEITRIM, LIMERICK, LONGFORD OR LOUTH
SIMILARLY, "D" WILL NOT BE AVAILABLE FOR LOUTH EITHER (DUNDALK, DROGHEDA)
NO "M" FOR MAYO OR MONAGHAN
NO "O" FOR OFFALY
NO "S" FOR SLIGO

I LIVE IN LIMERICK, SO WE COULD, FOR EXAMPLE BE ASSIGNED "X" AND IT COULD ENCOMPASS LARGE SWATHES OF CLARE, TIPPERARY, PERHAPS SOUTH OFFALY AND SOUTH GALWAY TOO (THE (061) STD CODE GOES INTO GALWAY).

THIS MIGHT WELL BE A SMART PR MOVE AS SOME PEOPLE, ESPECIALLY IN CLARE ARE HYPER-SENSITIVE ABOUT BEING ASSOCIATED WITH LIMERICK.

I WONDER IF IT WILL BE THE CASE THAT OUTSIDE OF DUBLIN, THE ROUTING KEY LETTERS WILL BE COMPLETELY RANDOMLY ALLOCATED AND BEAR NO RELATION TO THE INITIALS OF ANY TOWNS OR COUNTIES IN THE AREAS TO WHICH THEY ARE ASSIGNED.

INCIDENTALLY, MY OWN ORGANISATION HAS AMENDED ITS DATABASES TO TAKE ACCOUNT OF WHAT ARE DESCRIBED AS "POST CODES" BUT HAS NOT YET RECEIVED THE API.

I have tried the document in Chrome, Firefox, Opera, and Vivaldi browsers, and anything below the first stage links do not work. Looking at the code, it appears (deliberately?) crappy at the points that are unclickable.

clewbays

The Bill amendments strike a good balance between solving the non-unique addresses problem and establishing data protection mechanisms.

I expect the routing codes will deliberately avoid being confused with Irish or English versions of the county names.

clewbays

Impetus wrote: »

I have tried the document in Chrome, Firefox, Opera, and Vivaldi browsers, and anything below the first stage links do not work. Looking at the code, it appears (deliberately?) crappy at the points that are unclickable.

I think the lower links are if it goes through further stages - it is probably just a standard template that is only used if more stages are needed? The top links to the initial proposals should work though.

Sheldons Brain

clewbays wrote: »

The Bill amendments strike a good balance between solving the non-unique addresses problem and establishing data protection mechanisms.

I expect the routing codes will deliberately avoid being confused with Irish or English versions of the county names.

As head offices rather than counties as such are used by An Post, the routing keys might not be close to counties in many cases anyway.

antoinolachtnai

clewbays wrote: »

The Bill amendments strike a good balance between solving the non-unique addresses problem and establishing data protection mechanisms.

But there aren't any actual protections.

ukoda

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

But there aren't any actual protections.

From looking at it, it does? Governs the use of the code and forces companies to tell a customer how their postcode will be used and for what purpose?

The usually data protection stuff, but they specially say postcodes now

antoinolachtnai

So what actual protections are there here, beyond what is in data protection law?

What is the penalty if someone completely ignores the rules?

What compensation can you expect if the rules are broken and your privacy is breached as a result?

How is the amendment effective against organisations located outside Ireland and especially outside the European Union?

What happens if a non-value-added-reseller abuses privacy with the aid of the database?

Who is supposed to enforce these rules and what powers will they have to do so?

ukoda

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

So what actual protections are there here, beyond what is in data protection law?

What is the penalty if someone completely ignores the rules?

What compensation can you expect if the rules are broken and your privacy is breached as a result?

How is the amendment effective against organisations located outside Ireland and especially outside the European Union?

What happens if a non-value-added-reseller abuses privacy with the aid of the database?

Who is supposed to enforce these rules and what powers will they have to do so?

Why would there be anything "beyond data protection laws"??? all remains as is, they haven't developed anything new for eircode. They just added it to the existing data protection laws

If you want to know what the penalties and compensation associated with data protection breaches are, then go look up data protection law

antoinolachtnai

If it doesn't propose to give any protection beyond what is in data protection law, then what is the point of this bill?

ukoda

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

If it doesn't propose to give any protection beyond what is in data protection law, then what is the point of this bill?

To make sepific reference to eircode so that companies know they are protected under the current data protection legislation.

dr.fuzzenstein

ukoda wrote: »

Why would there be anything "beyond data protection laws"??? all remains as is, they haven't developed anything new for eircode. They just added it to the existing data protection laws

If you want to know what the penalties and compensation associated with data protection breaches are, then go look up data protection law

I don't quite understand what people are complaining about?
What about their address and phone number? All readily available, but I expect some people like to keep a low profile for "various reasons", i.e. paying bills or maybe they have to worry about being found? By who, though? A giant rabbit called Harvey?
I know people who live in the countryside using deliberately obtuse addresses and maybe aliases, they are usually concerned about being identified, mostly because they want to stay off the radar.
Has to be something iffy. I simply don't see the problem, I mean don't these people have an address already? And now this address will have a code with it. Hardly the stuff of Nazi Germany, it's not like they will be picked up at 3am and brought to the gulag or the Siberian saltmine.
I'd say it's 50% hysteria and 50% paranoia with people complaining about this system. Unless they got something to hide...